Light Harmonic (LH Labs). Scam? USD$6 million not delivered since 2014

[Geoff1954]

I've just found this thread. I too am waiting for a Geek Source.

Has anyone received one or know personally anyone who has?

Does anyone have any more recent information about either the Source or LH Labs in general?

[Geoff1954]

Life lesson for sure.

 

5 hours ago, Lobbster said:

Source is for sale in Asia

 Is there any evidence of that? Are you saying the product exists and is being retailed? If that were really true I would think there might be some way to embarrass IGG into doing something. I'm not naive enough to think IGG will ever help us get our money back. But if it is true that the Source is being sold while the initial backers remain SOL, the least IGG could do would be to post a public notice naming LH Labs as a disreputable dealer.

If this were all just a scam, I would think LH Labs would have disappeared with our money. Not that I expect to ever get the money back or receive the product.

 

[Geoff1954]

12 hours ago, LHCommSquad said:

The LH Labs IGG versions are not being sold in stores.

 

11 hours ago, LHCommSquad said:

They're waiting for 2 units from Singapore to hit the US office but the mail is slow.

I appreciate the additional information. I do not appreciate that the only way I received it was by stumbling upon an old thread and reviving it.

As a Source backer -- who has also bought and received a Geek Pulse -- who like others has been waiting for years for my Source, I expect to be kept informed on a regular basis, even if that information is, "There has been no meaningful progress for the past 3 months." (Alternatively if there has been something you consider "meaningful progress" it should be reported regularly without our having to ask.)

Allow me to look more closely at what I consider two of the key facts you have now shared. As I understand you -- please correct me if I am mistaken -- "IGG versions are not being sold in stores" and as you said,

 

12 hours ago, LHCommSquad said:

If anyone finds any in stores, they are Light Harmonic versions which have different components.

My understanding of those words is that some version of the product I paid for -- albeit with "different components" (a term which may have no actual significance, depending on what those components are) --  has been retailed with LH Labs knowledge while I and others who have provided funding have received nothing; not even regular "progress" reports.

May I say that seems unfair at best and a disreputable business practice at worst? (Stronger terms could be used but these will suffice for now.)

Regarding delays because "the mail is slow":

I just performed a quick web search for "air express companies." The initial results were restricted to the Seattle metropolitan area (along with one or two from British Columbia). A total of 22 companies came up. My point is that "the mail is slow" is not a credible explanation. Certainly not years after LH Labs has taken our money.

In conclusion, is there any date you can offer, by which time all the original IGG Source backers will receive what we have handed over money for? Is there any guarantee -- or even a promise -- that the product will actually be something in the realm of a "state of the art" music server, which is what we were led to believe?

What we are asking for is accurate information and honest answers. At this point that would be better than nothing, and nothing is what I believe we're received so far. This is shameful.

[Geoff1954]

7 minutes ago, montpierjazz said:

it's funny how this thread is dormant for months and then just springs back into action.

 

Had I known of this thread earlier I would have commented earlier. My recent effort to receive replies such as LH Com Squad Member's, by posting questions as a ticket on the LH Labs web site  have failed.

[Geoff1954]

@LHCommSquad first please respond to my first point:  Are Source music servers being sold at retail with "different components," while those of us who have ponied up thousands of dollars remain left with nothing?

You have also missed my main point so allow me to restate it. Many of us have invested a meaningful amount of money with the company you now represent (or speak for on this forum and others). It is safe to say, had we known that so many years after our investment, we would still have nothing, we would NOT have invested.

Be that as it may. LH Labs has our money and you have stated it will not be returned. I don't like it but I accept it is a fact and one I can probably do nothing about. Nevertheless, because you have taken our money without providing the product you promised, you still have obligations to us. If nothing else LH Labs has ethical obligations to keep us full informed.

All due respect, from an ethical point of view it is not up to you or Larry Ho to decide how often you should inform us of progress -- or the lack of it. Speaking only for myself I will suggest that quarterly updates are a minimum requirement. To repeat, that is true even if the "update" is, "No progress has been made on delivering the Source for the past three months. We have been busy with other matters we consider more important." That way at least those of us who have given LH Labs thousands of dollars know what -- if anything -- is going on.

Finally I notice you wrote:

 

55 minutes ago, LHCommSquad said:

Once the Wave comes out (if it does), people are welcome to sell it or do whatever with it.

Does this also apply to the Source? Again so there is no misunderstanding, I am not asking for clarification about whether any of us can sell our Source music server it it ever arrives. We hardly need your permission or Mr. Ho's to do so. My question is, is the real update on the Source the following:

"Once the Source comes out (if it does)..."

There is only one way you or Mr. Ho could do more damage than has already been done to the backers of the Source. That is if you withhold any additional information. If there is no longer any meaningful promise that the Source will be delivered to those who backed it, please say so clearly.

To be clear, you wrote:

"...any information I get I post immediately, should it be worthy of discussion."

I am suggesting it is not up to you, at this point, to decide what is or is not "worthy of discussion" regarding what is -- or is not -- happening to our money and the product we paid for. Regular updates are an ethical requirement in my view. If you disagree, please explain why.

[Geoff1954]

@LHCommSquad thanks for noting my thoughts and engaging in discussion on these issues. 

I hope you will also convey to Mr. Ho -- though I don't expect it will make any difference whatsoever -- that ANY further work done to make "Light Harmonic version Sources...in stock later," before fulfilling LH Labs' obligations to its original backers, is as unethical a course as I can imagine.

If the original Source LH Labs offered cannot be produced -- for whatever reason -- a minimum obligation would be to deliver whatever version of the product can be produced, before it is offered to others.  That is true in my view even if the product eventually delivered to the original backers is inferior to what we paid for. Something would be better than nothing. Nothing is all we have right now.

 

[Geoff1954]

@LHCommSquad

 

16 minutes ago, LHCommSquad said:

The IGG campaigns were a disaster and a lost money venture. There is no money or funding in IGG itself for IGG products for this company any more. Or at the least, very little. We've stated this multiple multiple times across many many avenues.

As a Source backer through IGG, I have read everything that has been sent to my email address from LH Labs regarding the Source. I have never seen a message with the information you say you have just repeated.

Today is the first day I have understood -- from LH Labs rather than my own intuition -- that somehow an enormous amount of money, not to mention good will, was squandered and that there is no longer any meaningful commitment to fulfill orders for the Source placed through IGG.

In light of this discussion I eagerly await an email from LH Labs (not a comment on the page of another entity) that spells this out clearly to every person who sent you money for the Source.

Does anyone here have any idea who we could write to at the management of IGG to call to their attention their own ethical responsibility to come clean about this disaster they helped orchestrate?

[Geoff1954]

@LHCommSquad LH Labs first responsibility regarding the progress -- or lack thereof -- of the Source Music Server, is to those who sent you money and ordered a Source. None of us has any obligation to follow your posts on any web site, other than the LH Labs web site. A direct email to every Source backer should direct us to the LH Labs site if there is a post there that offers us information we are entitled to.

It is possible -- though highly unlikely -- that I missed such an email. However it should be a simple matter for you to post a link to an LH Labs announcement on its own web site, providing the information you have provided to me today on this thread. If there is such an announcement please share the link here or email me directly (LH Labs has my email). I will review it and will immediately correct the record here on this thread if in fact, you have already shared this information with every Source backer.

But such an announcement that LH Labs has allegedly posted previously on its own web site would have to include the following:

 

45 minutes ago, Geoff1954 said:

The IGG campaigns were a disaster and a lost money venture. There is no money or funding in IGG itself for IGG products for this company any more. Or at the least, very little.

 

 

1 hour ago, LHCommSquad said:

LHL gets funding from LH, so LH components are needing to be sold to generate funds for LHL products. Therefore, LH products take priority

"The only guarantee I can give on the Sources is that LHL is working to fulfill all orders and will continue to work to fulfill all orders until a) they can no longer financially do so or b) they fulfill all orders."

This is an absolute minimum LH Labs owes its customers. BTW I think you should also be upfront with ALL of your customers by stating clearly on your web site (with an email to each supporter alerting us) what you have stated above:

"LH Labs tech support is essentially non-functioning at this point. Not enough manpower, not enough time. Tickets are being reviewed periodically by me but the office generally isn't working on technical matters for LH Labs products at this point." 

[Geoff1954]

Jud is completely right and his thinking applies to more than the Wave.

The truth is I have already spent a great deal of money to give my music system the capabilities the Source server might offer -- if it is ever delivered. 

Please do not interpret this to mean that it doesn't matter to me if my Source is ever delivered or not. It does matter. I entered into an agreement with LH Labs. I kept my end of the agreement. I expect LH Labs to keep its end. If it cannot for some reason, I expect some offer of compensation. If that seems unreasonable in any way, perhaps Mr. Ho can at least find the integrity to explain why.

 

[Geoff1954]

@EdmontonCanuckWow!

@LHCommSquad Can we expect any further responses from you regarding the issues that have been raised here?

[Geoff1954]

@LHCommSquad I just received this link via email.

https://support.lhlabs.com/support/solutions/articles/13000059353-source-update-1-08-19

It contains NONE of the information revealed by your comments in this thread. I find that stunning. I can only assume you raised these issues with Mr. Ho as you said you would and that he is unwilling to unambiguously explain the situation to all the backers (who received this email).

Even if a clear message to all the backers with information you've shared above would be repetitive (a point I have disputed above and that you have not answered effectively -- or at all) don't you agree that after a fiasco like this one the least LH Labs can do is transparently admit that the money raised on Indigogo (and the good faith that led to such enormous amounts of money being send to LJ Labs) has been squandered?

[Geoff1954]

@LHCommSquad how about responding to my question about TODAY’s email on the Source?

[Geoff1954]

1 hour ago, LHCommSquad said:

On a side note, there's literally about 30 backers who continually hammer us on the forums. It's a very small number of people.

I am not one. I found this thread recently by pure chance. As I am certain you know -- though I don't expect you to remember me -- I tried to get answers from the LH Labs web site quite a few times. And it was not until this past week that I learned the information you have explained on this site about how bad things truly are in this entire fiasco. 

No, "Providing that information in a blast update" would NOT, "be beating a dead horse." It might however lead to many more complaints. I understand that is something Mr. Ho does not want so there will be no "blast" that includes the frank evaluation you have offered here.

The fact is I am quite appreciative of your latest long post because I believe it is fundamentally honest. You know this is a fiasco as well as we do. You know you have no real control over anything that may happen next -- no more than we do. Mr. Ho makes all the decisions as he has done all along.

I am beginning to think that the "leadership" of Indiegogo is virtually as responsible as Mr. Ho for what has happened. They too should be held to account. If I could think of any way to make them -- and Mr. Ho -- as uncomfortable as this discussion has apparently made you, I would do it. But they have insulated themselves from the disaster. Those who are responsible are accountable to no one. That's apparently what they pay you for.

The entire situation is disgraceful. But I am now convinced you know that equally as well as we do. And you are equally unable to make it right.

Thanks for your time. I hope you're getting paid for it.