The true experimental tweak thread

[mozes]

Here are my impressions about Roon:

It took me sometime to make it work with the ASIO driver of the Brooklyn so I can play native DSD, but I managed after one day of trial and error. My system is as follows for those who don't know:

Nimitra>>SOTM tX-USBultra>>Brooklyn

 

What I liked:

1-Excellent user interface

2- Makes you discover your music in new ways

3-Seamless integration with Tidal

4-fluid navigational experience

 

What I didn't like:

-Sonically, it is not the best I heard, in direct A/B with same tracks from my SSD, Jriver 22 is clearly superior. Jriver 22 is more transparent such that Roon sounded veiled in comparison. As for Tidal streaming, Bubble DS Next with Jplaystreamer is more musical and less digital or metallic. The only exception is when playing Masters files to the Brooklyn (MQA lit blue), then it becomes so close to Bubble DS Next with Jplaystreamer and then we are talking about differences in presentation. Roon has deeper bass, but Bubble DS Next has more natural vocals, this is way too close that I can live with either. If Bubble DS Next with Jplaystreamer can support MQA then I believe that this will be well ahead of Roon.

-A bit slow to load on my control app on iphone and Android tab (maybe my hardware, don't know)

-Frequent disconnects and I have been asked to enter my username and password many times. almost 1 out of 3 or 4 attempts to launch the control app

-Overwhelming with information that I felt I am not in control of my music library, it is like Roon wants to be the BOSS and not me, I don't like that, I have to be in control so less suggestions, pushed recommendations is what I like. When I want to explore, I leave it to streaming solutions like Tidal to do that in the cloud not when I want to mange my library and play music

-Very fussy with hardware (couldn't launch it on my W10 laptop de to some video card driver compatibility issue).

-Took some time for it to recognize Brooklyn ASIO driver, not sure why.

 

Overall, these are my subjective impressions on my system using my subjective ears, so take it with a pinch of salt.

 

For now, I uninstalled Roon from my Nimitra, iphone and Android tab and back to my old trusted Jriver and BubbleDS Next/Jplaystreamer.

 

I will still keep an open mentality towards Roon as it is a great software for music management and playback, but now it doesn't suit my needs.

 

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, mozes said:

Here are my impressions about Roon:

It took me sometime to make it work with the ASIO driver of the Brooklyn so I can play native DSD, but I managed after one day of trial and error. My system is as follows for those who don't know:

Nimitra>>SOTM tX-USBultra>>Brooklyn

 

What I liked:

1-Excellent user interface

2- Makes you discover your music in new ways

3-Seamless integration with Tidal

4-fluid navigational experience

 

What I didn't like:

-Sonically, it is not the best I heard, in direct A/B with same tracks from my SSD, Jriver 22 is clearly superior. Jriver 22 is more transparent such that Roon sounded veiled in comparison. As for Tidal streaming, Bubble DS Next with Jplaystreamer is more musical and less digital or metallic. The only exception is when playing Masters files to the Brooklyn (MQA lit blue), then it becomes so close to Bubble DS Next with Jplaystreamer and then we are talking about differences in presentation. Roon has deeper bass, but Bubble DS Next has more natural vocals, this is way too close that I can live with either. If Bubble DS Next with Jplaystreamer can support MQA then I believe that this will be well ahead of Roon.

-A bit slow to load on my control app on iphone and Android tab (maybe my hardware, don't know)

-Frequent disconnects and I have been asked to enter my username and password many times. almost 1 out of 3 or 4 attempts to launch the control app

-Overwhelming with information that I felt I am not in control of my music library, it is like Roon wants to be the BOSS and not me, I don't like that, I have to be in control so less suggestions, pushed recommendations is what I like. When I want to explore, I leave it to streaming solutions like Tidal to do that in the cloud not when I want to mange my library and play music

-Very fussy with hardware (couldn't launch it on my W10 laptop de to some video card driver compatibility issue).

-Took some time for it to recognize Brooklyn ASIO driver, not sure why.

 

Overall, these are my subjective impressions on my system using my subjective ears, so take it with a pinch of salt.

 

For now, I uninstalled Roon from my Nimitra, iphone and Android tab and back to my old trusted Jriver and BubbleDS Next/Jplaystreamer.

 

I will still keep an open mentality towards Roon as it is a great software for music management and playback, but now it doesn't suit my needs.

 

 

Very interesting report.

 

Since I do not live in the world of PC-based music players, I cannot comment on the sonic differences you're hearing. Clearly there is more optimization for Roon to do. The only other suggestion I could make is to run the Roon processes (roon, raatserver, etc) as High priority. I use Process Lasso in Bitsum High Performance mode, but the priority settings can be done manually in Task Manager.

 

Now, as to the functional issues, I do think the feeling of Roon being boss is just being early in the learning curve. Once you find your way, I do not feel that way any more.

 

As to the speed, I've had no issues. The main thing is to ensure Roon's DB is located on an SSD. And maybe it's because I use a Roon Ready endpoint, I've had no functional errors or hiccups at all.

 

Glad you tried it - even if it isn't your cup of tea. At least you won't be wondering.

[mozes]

Exactly, I got Roon out of my system now. You are right that this is too early in the learning curve, but I know now what the fuss is all about. 

I imagine Roon would be great in a network playback system where you have multiple endpoints and playback zones. It does offer a nice platform to manage it all

[Cornan]

6 hours ago, mozes said:

Here are my impressions about Roon:

It took me sometime to make it work with the ASIO driver of the Brooklyn so I can play native DSD, but I managed after one day of trial and error. My system is as follows for those who don't know:

Nimitra>>SOTM tX-USBultra>>Brooklyn

 

What I liked:

1-Excellent user interface

2- Makes you discover your music in new ways

3-Seamless integration with Tidal

4-fluid navigational experience

 

What I didn't like:

-Sonically, it is not the best I heard, in direct A/B with same tracks from my SSD, Jriver 22 is clearly superior. Jriver 22 is more transparent such that Roon sounded veiled in comparison. As for Tidal streaming, Bubble DS Next with Jplaystreamer is more musical and less digital or metallic. The only exception is when playing Masters files to the Brooklyn (MQA lit blue), then it becomes so close to Bubble DS Next with Jplaystreamer and then we are talking about differences in presentation. Roon has deeper bass, but Bubble DS Next has more natural vocals, this is way too close that I can live with either. If Bubble DS Next with Jplaystreamer can support MQA then I believe that this will be well ahead of Roon.

-A bit slow to load on my control app on iphone and Android tab (maybe my hardware, don't know)

-Frequent disconnects and I have been asked to enter my username and password many times. almost 1 out of 3 or 4 attempts to launch the control app

-Overwhelming with information that I felt I am not in control of my music library, it is like Roon wants to be the BOSS and not me, I don't like that, I have to be in control so less suggestions, pushed recommendations is what I like. When I want to explore, I leave it to streaming solutions like Tidal to do that in the cloud not when I want to mange my library and play music

-Very fussy with hardware (couldn't launch it on my W10 laptop de to some video card driver compatibility issue).

-Took some time for it to recognize Brooklyn ASIO driver, not sure why.

 

Overall, these are my subjective impressions on my system using my subjective ears, so take it with a pinch of salt.

 

For now, I uninstalled Roon from my Nimitra, iphone and Android tab and back to my old trusted Jriver and BubbleDS Next/Jplaystreamer.

 

I will still keep an open mentality towards Roon as it is a great software for music management and playback, but now it doesn't suit my needs.

 

 

Thanks for sharing your experiences with Roon Moussa! Very interesting. Your subjective impressions and your subjective ears are a very valuable and trustable asset to me personally! ?

[Cornan]

I took a big step in my little audio world today. I decided while listening to Death Cab For Cuties MQA album "Kintsugi". I have changed my Android tablet with BubbleDS Next for an iPad with LightningDS for the first time since I bought my Aries Mini. The MQA unfolding with "Smooth" setting sounds really great in my setup and the normal FLAC have actually improved enough for me to feel comfortable with the switch. Finally I am sure LightningDS will catch up BubbleDS Next when it leaves beta! ?

 

An unexpected thing was that my low budget setup sounds better as well now. I connected the D-Link DAP-1620 to a separate channel and connected my Android tablet to it. Now both tablets are on separate channels. Voila! ?

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, Cornan said:

I took a big step in my little audio world today. I decided while listening to Death Cab For Cuties MQA album "Kintsugi". I have changed my Android tablet with BubbleDS Next for an iPad with LightningDS for the first time since I bought my Aries Mini. The MQA unfolding with "Smooth" setting sounds really great in my setup and the normal FLAC have actually improved enough for me to feel comfortable with the switch. Finally I am sure LightningDS will catch up BubbleDS Next when it leaves beta! ?

 

An unexpected thing was that my low budget setup sounds better as well now. I connected the D-Link DAP-1620 to a separate channel and connected my Android tablet to it. Now both tablets are on separate channels. Voila! ?

 

That's great!

 

I always love when a HW vendor adds functionality and SQ to an existing product through firmware or software without additional cost. That's the kind of thing that builds brand loyalty.

[Cornan]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

That's great!

 

I always love when a HW vendor adds functionality and SQ to an existing product through firmware or software without additional cost. That's the kind of thing that builds brand loyalty.

 

Yeah, the day I buy a new streamer and pass my Mini to my low budget setup the possibility it will be one from Auralic is very high! ?

[mozes]

Here is a diagram that shows my network topology and I also attached some pics for the optical to ethernet converter installed by the service provider which is powered by a cyberpower battery (pic also attached).

 

I believe that I have done most of what I should do for ethernet isolation

Still suggestions/recommendations are welcome

[Cornan]

@mozes

Looking at your network topology there are atleast three spots worth to experiment with additional isolation or changes of ethernet cables:

 

1. Between optical ethernet converter and ethernet box. Change to Cat6a U/UTP 500Mhz patch cable. For example Deltaco flat cables which are cheap.

 

2. Between ethernet box and modem. Change to Cat6a U/UTP 500Mhz patch cable. 

 

3. Between modem and router. Ethernet isolator close to the modem or change to Cat6a U/UTP 500Mhz patch cables (but since it is 15m long it might be too much of a hassle. Personally I would'nt hesitate to try two ethernet isolators on a long cable like that) 

 

Remember that sometimes you will not know the full benefit until the whole chain is isolated/optimized.

 

 

 

 

[mozes]

7 hours ago, Cornan said:

@mozes

Looking at your network topology there are atleast three spots worth to experiment with additional isolation or changes of ethernet cables:

 

1. Between optical ethernet converter and ethernet box. Change to Cat6a U/UTP 500Mhz patch cable. For example Deltaco flat cables which are cheap.

 

2. Between ethernet box and modem. Change to Cat6a U/UTP 500Mhz patch cable. 

 

3. Between modem and router. Ethernet isolator close to the modem or change to Cat6a U/UTP 500Mhz patch cables (but since it is 15m long it might be too much of a hassle. Personally I would'nt hesitate to try two ethernet isolators on a long cable like that) 

 

Remember that sometimes you will not know the full benefit until the whole chain is isolated/optimized.

 

 

 

 

Thanks @Cornan for your suggestions. the one from the optical converter to the box is the toughest one to change as it runs from the basement to the main floor through the wall.

what's the logic behind switching from cat7 to cat6a?

[mozes]

I like the BJC Cat6a cables, are these U/UTP?

BTW, what does U/UTP stand for ?

[Duke40]

UTP.  Unshielded Twisted Pair

[Cornan]

2 hours ago, mozes said:

I like the BJC Cat6a cables, are these U/UTP?

BTW, what does U/UTP stand for ?

 

Yes, BJC Cat6a are UTP! ?

U/UTP is the same thing in technical language as UTP. @Duke40 alrealready gave you what it stands for.

[mozes]

I am now thinking of which way to go

1- get 2 isolators and place in front of the modem and router. This is easy but expensive

2- change the cables to BJC Cat6a. More affordable but hard to do

 

any recommemdations for affordable ethernet isolators. I assume these don't have a task as critical as the ones before my Nimitra

[Cornan]

3 hours ago, mozes said:

Thanks @Cornan for your suggestions. the one from the optical converter to the box is the toughest one to change as it runs from the basement to the main floor through the wall.

what's the logic behind switching from cat7 to cat6a?

 

You are welcome Moussa! ? 

The logical behind replacing Cat7 to Cat6a UTP patch cables is to remove the galvanic connection plus shielding found in Cat7 cables. IMO Cat6a UTP patch cables sounds superior to any Cat5, Cat5E and Cat6 I have tried. Others might disagree! ?

[Cornan]

4 minutes ago, mozes said:

I am now thinking of which way to go

1- get 2 isolators and place in front of the modem and router. This is easy but expensive

2- change the cables to BJC Cat6a. More affordable but hard to do

 

any recommemdations for affordable ethernet isolators. I assume these don't have a task as critical as the ones before my Nimitra

 

Here is one that looks very similar to Baaske http://www.ebay.com/itm/201775179308 but cheaper.

Here is a similar Cat6a ethernet cable that I use http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/391149046517 . Same manufacturer but I use their latest model.

[austinpop]

54 minutes ago, mozes said:

I am now thinking of which way to go

1- get 2 isolators and place in front of the modem and router. This is easy but expensive

2- change the cables to BJC Cat6a. More affordable but hard to do

 

any recommemdations for affordable ethernet isolators. I assume these don't have a task as critical as the ones before my Nimitra

 

2 is a trade off. When we built my house 17 years ago, I had it wired for Ethernet, but it was all Cat 5e at the time. 

 

I'm not able or willing to rip all that out. I just go BJC 6a within a room, i.e. 5e for long runs in-wall, but 6a for everything else.

 

i also worry about the effect of cheap isolaters on signal integrity.

 

Try it and see. I have honestly not heard anything to matter upstream of my bridged W10 box. 

 

I've tried grounding boxes, LPSes, Baaske isolator. Maybe I'm lucky.

 

This is always the question isn't it. If you take care with isolation next to your DAC, then how far upstream of your DAC does it cease to matter?

[mozes]

1 hour ago, Cornan said:

 

Here is one that looks very similar to Baaske http://www.ebay.com/itm/201775179308 but cheaper.

Here is a similar Cat6a ethernet cable that I use http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/391149046517 . Same manufacturer but I use their latest model.

Great thanks, I will check them out

[mozes]

40 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

2 is a trade off. When we built my house 17 years ago, I had it wired for Ethernet, but it was all Cat 5e at the time. 

 

I'm not able or willing to rip all that out. I just go BJC 6a within a room, i.e. 5e for long runs in-wall, but 6a for everything else.

 

i also worry about the effect of cheap isolaters on signal integrity.

 

Try it and see. I have honestly not heard anything to matter upstream of my bridged W10 box. 

 

I've tried grounding boxes, LPSes, Baaske isolator. Maybe I'm lucky.

 

This is always the question isn't it. If you take care with isolation next to your DAC, then how far upstream of your DAC does it cease to matter?

Good thoughts @austinpop, still not sure how far I want to go here, but I will have a look at the market and what I have that can be sold, and take it from there

[Cornan]

26 minutes ago, austinpop said:

2 is a trade off.

 

I would stick out my jaw and say that the biggest trade off is how you have chosen to power the network devices. Even ethernet isolators and DC blocker are trade off's. There is a lot of trade off's in this hobby. You'll have to use them until something better comes around! ?

 

[Cornan]

With that said it is important to understand where the music bits are coming from and how noisy that connection might be. If you are living in an appartment in the center of a big town and listening to cloud content like me anything from the source to the player will probably matter. If you are living in a house outside the center and listening to local content anything from the local storage to the player will matter, including what is used to control the music and the paths are carrying the music bits. Anything else might not be as important.  

[austinpop]

2 hours ago, Cornan said:

With that said it is important to understand where the music bits are coming from and how noisy that connection might be. If you are living in an appartment in the center of a big town and listening to cloud content like me anything from the source to the player will probably matter. If you are living in a house outside the center and listening to local content anything from the local storage to the player will matter, including what is used to control the music and the paths are carrying the music bits. Anything else might not be as important.  

 

Agreed. I live in a standalone house in the suburbs, so perhaps am less prone to interference.

 

Here are my latest topology pictures. First the audio chain. This will change soon when I receive the tX-USBultra, but it is current as of now.

 

 

Now, here is my network topolgy, which also shows isolators and any LPSes.

 

 

So far, I have hear zero improvement from: the DC blocker, the Baaske isolator, the HDPlex LPS, and most recently the Aucharm grounding box.

 

I am thinking of moving the Baaske from its current spot to immediately prior to the W10 box.

[mozes]

57 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Agreed. I live in a standalone house in the suburbs, so perhaps am less prone to interference.

 

Here are my latest topology pictures. First the audio chain. This will change soon when I receive the tX-USBultra, but it is current as of now.

 

 

Now, here is my network topolgy, which also shows isolators and any LPSes.

 

 

So far, I have hear zero improvement from: the DC blocker, the Baaske isolator, the HDPlex LPS, and most recently the Aucharm grounding box.

 

I am thinking of moving the Baaske from its current spot to immediately prior to the W10 box.

Did you try grounding your C7 router?

[austinpop]

7 minutes ago, mozes said:

Did you try grounding your C7 router?

 

Yes that's where I used the grounding, by attaching a USB cable and clipping to the exposed end.

[mozes]

10 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Yes that's where I used the grounding, by attaching a USB cable and clipping to the exposed end.

It seems you are unlucky with grounding or your system is near perfection