MQA is Vaporware

[UkPhil]

On 7/2/2021 at 3:00 PM, Cebolla said:

 

Searching should indicate which albums are MQA masters or not, even if you don't log in to TIDAL, via TIDAL's web player. A search for  montreaux years simone & selecting albums lists two versions of the relevant album with the exact same June 25 2021 date, tracks, & track times and both marked as master:

https://listen.tidal.com/album/185086358

https://listen.tidal.com/album/188847768

 

 

Of course you do need a TIDAL HiFi account in order to play their tracks under the TIDAL masters quality setting.

 

Interestingly, playing the first track of each album reveals that they are both studio/blue masters (as opposed to plain/green masters), both hi-res MQA (as opposed to MQA-CD) with an undecoded resolution of 24bit/44.1kHz and both with an MQA original sample rate of 44.1kHz - so why have two MQA album versions with the same MQA attributes? A more subtle difference between them, perhaps - if so what?

 

 

 

 

Presumably, your test method does actually signal MQA on known MQA albums on Qobuz, such as those mentioned in:

 

Yes,

I see 2L on Qobuz as MQA blue dot with the streams, to be honest the stream I tested for Nina Simone was 24/96 so it wouldn't be a true MQA file anyway as it's base rate would be 24/48 in this case so is the conclusion here that we are getting processed MQA master files pre processed in the PCM FLAC file, and what actually is that going to do to the sound quality, as we do not know what the original sounds like anyway. 

 

 

[UkPhil]

23 minutes ago, UkPhil said:

Yes,

I see 2L on Qobuz as MQA blue dot with the streams, to be honest the stream I tested for Nina Simone was 24/96 so it wouldn't be a true MQA file anyway as it's base rate would be 24/48 in this case so is the conclusion here that we are getting processed MQA master files pre processed in the PCM FLAC file, and what actually is that going to do to the sound quality, as we do not know what the original sounds like anyway. 

 

 

Also what advantages does the Tidal MQA files "unfolded" version have over the mastered MQA version as PCM (FLAC) available elsewhere all their special sauce has been built in hasn't it ?

It's pretty messed up isn't it ??

[UkPhil]

8 hours ago, KeenObserver said:

Where does MQA stand now?

 Seems like there have been a number of people closely deconstructing and examining MQA. They are finding it to be smoke and mirrors masquerading as a new paradigm. All these years of BS. It's been long enough. Just go away.

 

Where does Tidal stand? Are they still promoting MQA?

It’s all gone pretty quiet since @GoldenOneouting, I wonder what they have left up there sleeve , pretty stuck with just Tidal now as most of the other streamers are running PCM as a lossless tier. 

[UkPhil]

It seems Sony’s joined the mQa roll out so the format has still got some steam left in it 

[UkPhil]

5 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

It’s a contractual obligation that has been in place for years. 

A waste of effort on Sony’s part to be quite honest 

[UkPhil]

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Agree. 
 

All the labels agreed to convert their entire catalogs to mQa years ago. This is just Sony following through. 

It will be interesting to see if we get mangled 24bit versions out of their archives or just converted 16/44.1 re hashes like Warners  delivered to the consumer a few months ago 

[UkPhil]

7 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:
 

This is just Sony following through. 

That line has so many connotations 🤣

[UkPhil]

44 minutes ago, granosalis said:

Can yoy please link a press release or article? I'm not able to find the news. Thanks. 

Looking into the mQa fan page it’s seems to have been supplied to them directly,  nothing in the press as yet which seems strange 

[UkPhil]

10 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I bet Sony is thrilled to see mQa leaking its press releases to a Facebook group of sycophants. 

They may have wanted to keep it quiet too 

[UkPhil]

On 7/30/2021 at 8:06 PM, Cebolla said:

 

As of 30/07/2021 13:30:15, 3931 MQA albums with their copyright notices containing "sony" are on TIDAL, the vast majority, 3885, having been added this month alone - so certainly looks like it's happening. Source:

The most complete list of MQA albums so far found on Tidal - The Hitchhikers Guide To Meridian (meridianunplugged.com)  

I must take a look to see if they are doing the same and converting 16/44.1 versions through the sausage machine like Warner did 

[UkPhil]

Looking at the latest exported Tidal data there are approx 3500 MQA items that are only 16/44.1 released in the last week that have Sony / Columbia as it’s copyright 

[UkPhil]

18 minutes ago, John Dyson said:

Yes, thank goodness for the boutique houses that actually produce good quality stuff.   The quality of most recordings almost makes me cry.   Hopefully, someday, those who have the 'really good' systems will have access to better quality stuff more often & easily!!!   Alas, I'll probably never have one of those 'really fancy' systems -- my days of dropping $10k on a whim are long gone.  (I had days in the past that $50k would have been fairly easy.)   Nowadays, I have to search my pennies to replace my $150 headphones...   However, even a 'slightly inferior' system can benefit from recordings with improved quality.

 

 

Completely agree crap recordings mixed and mastered that way are just gonna sound terrible regardless of the kit it’s gonna be thrown at and no doubt the more revealing the system is the worse it gets. No amount of specialised filtering will save it or revive it 

[UkPhil]

1 hour ago, firedog said:

 

1. In other words, you did say it was the "birth of a new world" and your views haven't changed;

2. Wow, one listening test of one recording by one engineer. Definitive proof....not;

3. Your "new world" is so important and so obvious that thousands of audiophiles with top notch systems can't hear it; and some of them think at least some MQA recordings sound worse. Same for many "engineers", if we are going to use appeals to authority as an argument.

 

That's what you feel is "as important.....as digital was 40 years ago"?

 

Really? You don't want to backaway a bit from that statement? 

 

There have been NO properly setup and controlled listening tests of MQA. The closest was the McGill study, and it didn't back up any claim of a "new world" of audio reproduction being born. That's a lot more meaningful than your cherry picked anectdote.

 

It's been 8 years. There's only one reason a properly setup listening test of MQA hasn't occured: MQA won't allow it. Any company that was confident in the "new worldliness" of it's product would have been begging others to set up proper listenting tests and would have helped them do it. I think the reason MQA has blocked such tests is obvious. 

That’s always been my concern, MQA don’t allow you to A/B compare any of the file conversions (2L aside) take the 1,000’s of 16/44.1 red books from Warner’s and now Sony you are fed the replacement without being able to objectively compare sound quality,  the closed shop environment used  just questions any validation of the system as no one can judge it for themselves, and “just listen” doesn’t cut it  

[UkPhil]

I know Mr Fripp can be a pretty strict with control of his archival content I wonder if he had any say in these releases ? 
https://www.hmv.co.jp/news/article/2107051011/?fbclid=IwAR3cdPo9rftvczAtKw5McfsQXUMU1lIVwm0q3v88vXty_Us48EozOXrL65E

[UkPhil]

It’s a long haul but here is Bob doing the “technical stuff” on you tube,  probably nothing that hasn’t already been discussed 

 

[UkPhil]

All eyes on China, more from Bob on 9/9/21 

https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/music-ally-china-digital-summit-in-association-with-mqa-tickets-165239073517?fbclid=IwAR0KY-vDTzzXHrD_0x4AX9nPoZjxAYSAZGb37rmTFtE3AMqpUrwWxnfjYHk

Grab a pot of your best coffee 😁

[UkPhil]

1 hour ago, BassFace said:

The same 7 or 8 people liking each other's post , big deal.  Step back and to the normal person that's all you's are all doing. Its not trolling its mere observation from outside the little clique which is paramount on most forums but off the charts in the world of Hi-Fi.  Of course your not going to agree with me, your all too busy posting silly pictures and clicking like.

I came to the this forum looking for answers, sometimes people can get heated in the debate but the wealth of info about MQA opened my eyes, yes I did go down the route of MQA for 18 months but I just wasn't comfortable with it and from the RMAF debacle and the shilling that went on Facebook sites only made me realise that the ultimate goal was to create a “one cap fits all” approach to file control giving no one any choice, restricting quality unless you pay the organ grinder for the keys to make so called better. The placebo effect is a clever thing it had me for a while but I got out, you can recreate better sound from standard free files if you want to, just use DSP / other filters and room treatment, the beauty of this you control it instead of being told this is what you should be listening to. Tidal have big issue now and with Spotify on the cusp of going lossless the mass market will be on a true PCM FLAC or ALAC, creating a monopoly on file control is not good for the consumer or new emerging technologies going forwards.

[UkPhil]

It’s 40 minutes long if you want to stick it out 

 

[UkPhil]

2 hours ago, lucretius said:

 

IIRC, the labels (or maybe just Warner?) have been slipping some mQa files to Qobuz. They could make it the only format available for distribution to any streaming service.  I don't think Tidal is a big player here -- they just happen to be the pilot project.

This is mQa’s  only way through if the majors feed these files to other companies do we know which titles have been given out, the only ones I know are 2L with Morten being pro mQa?

[UkPhil]

2 hours ago, FredericV said:

What a big mess these double standards, and not even from the same master - but both MQA?



He shows a video where his MQA DAC is jumping in between samplerates within the same album ... probably this is what the artist intended, as the blue MQA dot is active 🤣

I wonder if the FLAC version also has different sample rates between the tracks from The Wall, which used to be one my favorite albums in the 90's. I even went to the Pink Floyd concert in Belgium, which had surround effects! They were years ahead. Used to be a big fan at the time.

Yes indeed:
https://www.prosoundnetwork.com/archives/pink-floyd-quad-concert-desks-to-be-auctioned

I believe the European release by Warners has effected both MQA and FLAC PCM the error is clearly noticeable on Qobuz and Amazon in the UK too, what a mess and a bit of embarrassment for such a high profile bands hi res releases. Dark Side Of The Moon allegedly has mixed sample rates too giving rise to bad segues when the DAC switches between them 

[UkPhil]

7 hours ago, MikeyFresh said:

This is a Warner release in Europe? I thought this was EMI/Harvest/Capitol worldwide ever since the rights that Sony/Columbia once held in various regions expired in 2000. The 1997 Sony remastering was then used by EMI until 2011, when the current reissue was remastered.

 

I'm not seeing any of that on the Qobuz release in the U.S. That one plays absolutely perfectly at 24/96 with no hiccups or glitches. Additionally, these all show as Pink Floyd Records releases in the U.S.

 

My only real question there was why is The Wall at 24/96, when it seems the rest of the catalog was done at 24/192, and I'm not hearing that those are clearly just upsampled. Even if they were upsampled, the question would then be why they didn't also offer The Wall at an upsampled 24/192 as well.

 

Lastly, I see on the U.S. HDtracks download store as well as the U.S. Qobuz download store that The Wall is available only in 24/96 for hi-res download.

I believe Sony are distributing for other countries and I have been made aware that those versions are ok it seems it’s a Warner issue in Europe but Tidal seems to have got a clean version for all territories though which is the puzzling part 

[UkPhil]

45 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Has Tidal finally come to its senses and decoupled MQA from lossless streaming?

 

I just recede an email saying I was upgraded to HiFi Plus. So, I checked to see what HiFi without the Plus was. IT certainly appears that lossless without MQA is now only $10.

 

But these will be 16/44.1 MQA files with the flag turned off so MQA in disguise,  they dumped all the Warners and Sony original ones in the bin so no one could compare 

[UkPhil]

2 hours ago, Archimago said:

Well, these are good changes to Tidal I think, at least in terms of potentially phasing out MQA. Money talks and the extra cost of the "HiFi+" tier I think is going to mean further reduction in mQa demand ahead.

 

Personally, I wish the Atmos/Sony 360 content was part of the lossless HiFi plan. As it stands, Tidal still doesn't really compete with Apple Music which has lossless hi-res (if one cares) and multichannel at $10. But Roon/device compatibility is good and the main benefit for Tidal.

 

Looking forward to analysis of the 16/44.1 stream for mQa corruption ;-).

 

Obviously, I need to say something about this on my blog (and the legacy/role Stereophile, Atkinson, et al. played in all this nonsense).

 

Let’s hope they are Red Book copies this needs to be confirmed as far as I was aware original 16/44.1 files were replaced by MQA (15bit versions) covering Warners and Sony releases I’m sure Universal was going to follow 

[UkPhil]

I see with the new Tidal marketing push they seem to be shifting the onus on quality streaming to the Hifi tier which is non MQA only a few months ago MQA was touted as the way to “hear your music as the artist intended” now it’s just good “ole” 16/44.1, the only issue here is how many files do they have that are not “red book” standard and are being modified from MQA versions as these are the only ones left on the platform. 

[UkPhil]

2 hours ago, firedog said:

I (and others) said when they announced the new pricing that it would be the nail in the coffin of MQA. There were supposedly only a total of a few hundred K subscribers to the "Masters" tier before. In other words, an insignificant amount not only in the audiophile/music lovers world, but a insignificant sliver of the total market. A fraction of  one percent. 

I'm guessing that number will actually decline. How many new subscribers will pay for MQA instead of the CD level tier? Probably close to none. 

 

Tidal will inadvertently prove that MQA has near zero market viability. And that will prevent anyone else from adopting it as a delivery medium. Tidal themselves will probably dump it after a while - whenever contracts permit and egg can be removed from face. 

Plus there’s only approx 6 million MQA encoded files so a small proportion to Tidals active library, unfortunately these titles will probably not be delivered as true 16/44.1 PCM standard files for the hifi tier users, I don’t think they would put back the one they took away a few months ago when Warners and Sony delivered revised 16bit MQA versions, a bit of mess to be honest