A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[luisma]

Hi everyone, is this a dual JSST cable? 

 

https://audiobacon.net/2019/03/20/its-here-jcats-flagship-usb-and-usblan-conditioner/

 

[luisma]

Hi Miki, the copper bar is anchored to a concrete wall correct? these anchors are how long? is that concrete wall one of the house walls?

 

I'm asking because at some point in my life I was an electrician and one of the tasks I was used to perform was grounding houses in Europe.

 

Best

 

Luis

[luisma]

22 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

 

I was answering the question @happydance asked. 

 

It saddens me that Larry, who I hold in high esteem, chose to attack me in this way. I can assure you that this post was my own idea and I am no one's messenger or proxy.

 

If you'd read my post carefully, I was reinforcing the point that NUCs deliver outstanding SQ, without requiring unobtainable power supplies. See below:

 

 

Indeed, just over the last few weeks, I've provide advise and counsel to an AS'er in Europe, who reached out to me by PM, to get his own NUC7i7DNBE/Akasa Plato X7D to run NAA. He's delighted with his system. It's interactions like that that keep me engaged on the forums.

 

Posts like yours make me want to throw up my hands and walk away. Maybe it's time.

Off topic

Hi Rajiv, I personally don't know you or Larry but I have interacted with you guys in these forums, both you and Larry  have been very very helpful for this community, his response IMO was not "typical" of him, while my purpose is not to justify his not very polite comment in any way I understand sometimes we are frustrated with things in life and we react in different ways, maybe that's the case with Larry.

Edit: I was very surprised for his comments, I thought he was joking when I started reading.

 

Apart from the acid comment, which again have not excuse, the last few paragraphs of his post are completely valid and I personally agree with him that you can obtain acceptably good SQ with NUCs and tweaks without having to resort to unobtainable devices.

 

Last but not least if you started this long thread with NUC solutions and later on through empirical testing we (all community members and yourself) discover alternatives that are completely valid with single PC's with no detriment to the NUCs that's even better IMO, hence the original meaning of your post.

 

I am mentioning all this because I myself sometimes "react" in less than adequate ways because of frustration and 100% of times I regret it.

 

on second thought, I know I will be criticized by other members (almost sure not you) for this post but I'm posting regardless.

 

Happy Weekend to you all and enjoy your systems NUC, single PC's, cheap, expensive and all.

 

[luisma]

18 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Rajiv,

 

I was just lamenting that our world seems to be splitting into SR7 haves and have-nots. Perhaps we should start a new thread for the have-nots. Too bad you did not see the humour in my expression of this lament.

 

Larry

Honestly Larry I get that from the  comments the SR7 "seems" to be the pinnacle of the SQ (which not necessarily means it is) but that doesn't mean there is a split between haves and have nots, Rajiv and Romaz are establishing reference systems which most of us we cannot try (now I kind of see your point) but there are things in between which are completely within reach, and I personally I'm perfectly happy with it, like for example AL, it has made a big difference on my system. 

My point is Rajiv have been part of the community and very valuable like yourself and your comment although kind of understandable don't really apply, it started like a joke but then you went into assumptions

My apologies for trying even to provide opinions between you two but I appreciate you both contribution. 

[luisma]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

Luisma,

 

The whole point of the NUC direction, and the reason I have been promoting it, is recognition that as a low current device a NUC can use an obtainable, high quality, low current power supplies to get SQ that is superior to prior one-box solutions.  Supplies like the LPS1.2 and Hdplex 200 are examples. On top of that with galvanic isolation on the network and USB connections ground loops are gone. This is easily accomplished with a 5ghz WIFI card and an ISO Regen with any NUC.

 

Maybe someday we can find an obtainable and affordable high current power supply as good as the SR7. In the meantime, I will be recommending NUCs, if they are available.

 

As far as I know, the only DIY one-box solutions rumored to beat the NUC approach are powered by SR7s.

 

Larry

And I agree with everything you just said, following this thread I have been able to improve my system at great lengths with the use of low cost NUC's and LPSs, very affordable and great SQ.

 

[luisma]

3 hours ago, afrancois said:

I’m using an edgerouter 6p with great succes. This router is connected to the main switch using fiber sfp. This way you’re isolated from the modem and  in the cabling outside your house. As the edgerouter doesn’t include WiFi you will need separate WiFi access points. Keep these AP far enough away from your stereo rig.

I have done emission testing for many switches and routers including Cisco, hp and ubiquity and others like netgears, dells etc. Quite contrary to what I have imagined ubiquity provides the more rfi / EMI blocking in general, between 0 and 4 ghz very surprising results so I vouch for the one a francois recommended 

[luisma]

And if you go the fiber route ubiquity sfp are excellent as well 

 

[luisma]

23 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Thanks Bob.

 

I don't want to muddy the waters too much, but I am finding on some tracks I actually prefer Roon+StylusEP, whereas more often than not, I still prefer Stylus. Certainly on large orchestral music, I think Stylus offers a more expansive image that is addictive.

 

Of late, I've stopped switching around, and am just enjoying Roon+StylusEP

 

I strongly encourage people to try things like this for themselves. 

Hi Bob and Rajiv, I'm on the same testing wagon and I discovered in my system just the same fanless nuc connected directly to the DAC via usb, euphony stylus player pcm 32 bits and 44 Khz no up-sampling Flac vs roon native running in AL no upsampling either sounded fairly the same, maybe euphony have better bass but I think it is not better but different stage presentation with a more upfront bass. 

 

Honestly with my system the upsampling makes it more airy and less bassy, maybe more detailed because of the lack of bass upfront but not necessarily better. 

 

Which is making me to question all the upsampling path I have taken. 

 

My wife she says the new sound with no upsampling she doesn't like it, she describes it as "something is vibrating and I don't like it" please guys (not you Bob or Rajiv) keep the obvious jokes to yourself, she is a pianist and I actually take her opinions very seriously, 

 

I think with better content from qobuz for example 24 bits and 96 or 192 native the need for upsampling is getting more cuestionable. 

 

 

 

[luisma]

13 hours ago, bobfa said:

Louis,

 

Can you tell me what you are doing for upsampling?  Tomorrow is listening day!!  

 

Bob

 

Four tests planned.  Xeon and NUC A/B/C/D Stylus and StylusEP with Roon on both.  WHEW

My testing settings are:

 

1. Euphony running on fanless NUC connected via USB to Denafrips DAC, Stylus player only with default settings which are reported at 32 bits 44 Khz PCM plays flawless on my DAC however I cannot play DSD content, even though being an Amanero based board Zeljo just confirmed there is a known problem with my DAC which will be fixed soon. So this rig have no upsampling

2. Roon running from same NUC with AL headless. No upsampling just playing Native content 44 as it comes from streaming Qobuz, sound is very very close or similar. Same notes etc.

3. Fan NUC core i7 running AL headless with Roon server and HQPlayer to an AL NAA connected to the DAC via USB. Upsampling through HQP. Setting in attached picture. DSD256 in this case.

 

I know 3. it is not a fair comparison since there is one more NUC involved.

 

In all cases all nucs are powered by Uptone Audio JS2

 

My point is Euphony + Stylus and AL + Roon sound very very similar on my system with same hardware and DAC. After the DAC I have an Atmasphere MP-3 with stock tubes and Atmasphere MA-1 monos with stock tubes as well connected to AudioKinesis Azel standmount speakers with 4 passive sub array. The subs are powered separate from 2 Dayton 1000W sub amps

 

One thing we have not mentioned much is the gear, it seems to be that most people on this forum have SS gear and I have the feeling my tube rig is very impervious to changes on the digital source, you can hear the changes but not so apparent, before I had a Yamaha S2100 and changes in digital chain were way more noticeable from what I remember.

 

 

[luisma]

Listening tonight and doing changes to my system. Got tired of following pragmatic rules set by myself like DSD only not pcm, server and NAA back to back with ethernet, AL and euphony only nothing else, why try new things if this is what works right?. These are the boundaries I enclosed myself to without realizing that I moved from another house, I replaced my speakers recently, and more than that I have grown following and learning from this community. 

 

Something have been bothering me lately, cpu frequencies and PC system complexity. How come this can create SQ detriment so noticeable (oh God, Roy Eldridge 1:57 into Bossa Nova just heard him like "hmmm" never heard that detail before). 

 

Anyways I switched from DSD256 over to PCM384 and I'm hearing better detail and I remembered like a year ago the debate about pcm and dsd that most people swore by pcm, and putting A and B together in my system pcm takes 15 percent of cpu whether dsd 256 takes 80 percent or so. It makes sense right? Well to be honest my DAC I believe goes into the R2R ladder with pcm content so yeah not exactly apples to apples, have to check that. 

 

Then I replaced my AL NAA by and old Allo Bridge which I updated just today, improvement as well over the i3 NAA , could it be the simpler Allo ARM generating less noise? I mean I have this stereotype of Allo like entry level NAA device (another pregamatism) 

 

And all this brought back memories of euphony stylus with no upsampling sounding amazingly good, how dare you Luis to question DSD, upsampling and complex CPU computers right? 

 

Definitely cpu and noise it is very very VERY critical, and you must be like "tell us something we don't know" or "have you been following this lately?" I know, it is just now I'm linking pcm with noise, cpu usage, simpler algorhytms and such. I guess I'm slow to put things together 

 

Could it be we complicate things too much trying to get to a better state when simplicity might be the key? 

Back to listening now 

 

 

 

[luisma]

4 hours ago, bobfa said:

Luis,

 

I have never gotten upsampling to “work for me” I have not spent a lot of energy but it seemed to me to “muddy the waters”.  I have tested in my old system a Tidal stream, PCM 24/96 and DSD of the same album and the differences were rather subtle with me preferring the DSD.  I have not re-run that test with my new system.  I have not pushed to acquire high-Rez music but just music.  With Qobuz and Tidal I am acquiring less and less.  Now, I still have 7000 albums to listen to if the internet goes out; I will not be bored with that.  

 

I mostly listen to Redbook format music and I am happy.  I am currently running only a single Xeon box with Euphony and things are really good.  I hope to test some commercial servers this summer and I have one of the new Signature Rendu’s on the way.  I hope to avoid any expectation bias here.

 

For me simplifying the system is tantamount.  Finding a way to accomplish this has been hard with a lot of false starts.  As of this moment for me a single box system with Euphony OS running on it and playback with Roon to the StylusEP seems to be a good mix of simplicity and ease of use.  The sound quality of that system design is really really close to what I have been looking for.  Then a turntable for a couple hundred LPs and the Chromecast to HDMI audio extractor for accessing SoundCloud, YouTube scratches that itch.  

 

A lot less tweaking than a year ago.  Simpler system design, less power consumption, easier to use.  And some of the family members still yell at Alexa to play music on the can in the corner.  I am not done yet.  (By leaving the system in the right setting for the Chromecast input I can use the Google Assistant to send music to the main system)

 

We may be zeroing in on multiple solutions to get really great sounding music in our homes.  We will always find something new, and that is the fun of this part of the HOBBY.  

 

 

 

 

Thanks Bob, totally agree with you, simple things are wonderful. Upsampling worked for me on my SS amp which I sold more than 6 months ago and was replaced by OTL's mono's and I kept upsampling because why not? just when I decided to test Euphony which I could not upsample or play DSD because of limitations on my DAC (which Zelkjo very graciously is helping to get it added to Euphony's list of supported DACs), just then I realized the plain sound with no changes (like @Chopin75 was saying on his response to my post which by the way I have to read slow and carefully because there is a lot of info there I did not know before and valuable to me), the plain source with no changes sounded amazingly good. That made me go back and experiment and discard some of the "dogma" and I'm at that stage now. 

 

@Chopin75 mentioned something very interesting that PCM is more detailed and analytical and I think he is right on the money there, I am a neophyte in these matters and I'm learning all I can that's why I mentioned my learning from this community, so sometimes we may enjoy the details with "our ear right at the mic" and sometimes just the analog music feeling and I have to say we are so lucky (I was about to say blessed) that we are living in a time where we have so many choices for enjoyment and we can choose what to listen to and how.

 

My main thing with DSD was the glitchy Amanero Combo 384 board which with PCM when changes in bits, resolution etc. happened from track to track it started playing high SPL noise, an issue which made me always DSD upsample as it was completely stable there.

 

Thank you @bobfa and @Chopin75 for your comments.

 

Love to learn

 

 

[luisma]

26 minutes ago, austinpop said:

really have better things to do than come in here and moderate every day. I do not want to delete posts, so please make my "job" easier.

I started it with the PCM vs DSD listening experience, thought it would be part of the listening chain and not OT feel free to delete mine as it really doesn't provide anything relevant. I will copy some of the answers I received 

 

 

[luisma]

9 hours ago, Metnoc said:

I used optical for a couple of weeks, never sounded right.
Copper ethernet input sounded right after 2 seconds, and today even better.
Will use copper ethernet input for a few days and then switch back and report on it.

Optical is touted as the holy grail of galvanic isolation and most here adopt it as such but just a few realize that to convert electrical signals to wavelength an oscillator and other circuitry generating HIGH RFI / EMI must be present, learned my lesson 3 years ago and I will stay away from now. Just like you

[luisma]

10 hours ago, Chopin75 said:

Interesting, I do not have much issue with the Corning USB optical cable. I did use the Regen USPCB to block off any leaving Vbus current which helps a lot. I tried using a isilencer or some EMI USB filter after the corning Cable but that made things worse. The Corning optical beats my copper USB big time, despite being 10 M long! (they don't make shorter than 10 M) But then USB may be quite different form ethernet cable.

Hi, I was not referring to the Corning optical cable "specifically", all I am saying is that while we get the impression that laser provides complete galvanic isolation (which it does) for the associated equipment to be able to convert an electrical signal to laser and back laser to electrical this equipment generates "VAST" amounts of RFI/EMI on single frequency bands, in RF terms I'm talking 40 dbm that reach easily 40 - 80 ft of propagation. That tiny media converter that doesn't look like much does that. When the device or cable used provides adequate and good shielding the effect is minimized of course. I have personally tested the RFI effect but I don't know how much / less will affect the audio SQ, I have not tested or quantified the EMI surrounding effect but if we know empirically that a CPU in turbo mode degrades SQ (and someone maybe can confirm this last statement) it is just logical to think that LED could potentially do the same.

EDITED. IOW there is always a trade off

[luisma]

1 hour ago, marce said:

Like a LED!

Exactly, LED's generate RFI/EMI and potentially associated noise.

[luisma]

15 hours ago, sandyk said:

One of these fast colour changing little LEDs would probably wipe out TV reception too!   

(5mm Fast Color Changing LED - T1 3/4 RGB LED )

 

luisma

Quite often, modern LEDs are used as LOW noise voltage references, as seen in the attached schematic of the LOW noise Jung Voltage Regulator.

Alex

 

 

Hi Sandyk. I can't see the exact details on the picture but when I was saying LED I was referring to "Laser Emitting Devices" as a whole not "Light Emitting Diode", I'm sorry if I confused you but I was using @marce 1st reference which I think it was the former.

[luisma]

5 hours ago, Ricardo007 said:

@SuperdadWhat is the rationale for chosing port 1 for the incoming data flow (for example from a router) and port 8 for the outgoing data flow to streamer if any or does the choice of ports indifferent?

That's for Alex to answer of course but I do the same with my switch to physically separate EMI from the ports as much as I can from each other.

[luisma]

21 hours ago, Bricki said:

Excellent! 😁👍 Thanks heaps for this... I hope to have my USB cable completed with this 3rd layer in a couple of weeks... I will post my impressions when done and then complete my Ethernet cable 😁👍

Not trying to advertise here but results with lush^2 kind of show full 3 layer jssg360 wouldn't be the best config although close, maybe you can leave yourself open to options with a redo static jssg360 3 layer? Just saying, you can take a advantage of the results and do your own testing. Personally I got lush^2 

[luisma]

10 hours ago, bobfa said:

I think that the FMC is running all the time and it can generate noise on the Ethernet even when there is not traffic.  Yes I have 100% buffer set.  

 

I will see where. I go from here. Thanks for Roon the ideas.  Note I am not even using the element H card right now.  

Thank you Bob for the the updates, just remember the FMC when connected to fiber will generate a 810 mhz 40db noise radio signal which may interfere with other things, this signal is highly directional if the FMC have good shielding so orienting the device to "splash" the wave where it doesn't "hurt" might make a difference. 

 

Good summer project indeed 

 

Take care 

 

 

[luisma]

22 hours ago, bobfa said:

you point me to some reference material on this please?

Hi Bob, there is no reference anywhere for this that I could find, this is something I accidentally discovered installing radio systems and I have documented myself with my own videos. Note there is not fact this affects SQ but we all know RFI affects sound somehow, I purchased recently a phone dac that when the tower is far away and the phone uses more power to reach the tower the DAC audio buzzes because of the phone RFI power.

the FMC on my empirical measurements transmit with 30 to 40 dbm which as you could imagine is a lot for it.

 

I mentioned this on this forum but I'll pm you my Dropbox link and you'll be the judge.

 

Note also on my experiments the shielding quality of the FMC is paramount, and you'll be surprised finding expensive Catalyst latest Gen and HPe equipment leaking RF.

 

Contrary to all reasoning inexpensive ubiquity equipment with their standard sfps provided excellent lateral shielding

 

 

[luisma]

1 minute ago, Chopin75 said:

I probably should put a lead shield around my LPS haha

that will probably work indeed, led is the best (sorry is it lead or led?) I'm not a native english person.

 

I can't find the video where I wrapped two layers of aluminum foil over the FMC, temporarily of course because it needs to dissipate, the effects !!! NONE, then I went to amazon looking for copper foil, I ended up purchasing $600 of equipment switches, etc. and started testing the one by one, some I did return to Amazon some others I still have em in storage (after 3 years).

 

My findings, the shielding the manufacturers uses makes all the difference, you can't contain RF but you can direct it (kind of) hence my posting above to @bobfa, I was able to use the devices on my application with careful positioning.

 

The worst is the power cable, when FMC's radiates everywhere the DC cable becomes a powerful  antenna (the ethernet not so much), yes I know get some RFI/EMI ferrite beads blockers and put it on the cable, sure, tried it and waste my money doing it.

 

 

[luisma]

Currently have this NUC7i7BNH, on specs doesn't support ECC ram so I guess ECC could be ruled out, anyone using a ram chip which makes a difference in sound with industrial specs non-ECC?

[luisma]

On 3/15/2020 at 6:03 AM, ASRMichael said:

Are people using single or multi mode cables? If so why? 

Fiber optics technology has evolved over the years, multimode fiber (MM) was easier to manufacture and less costly that's why it was widely used in the past, with MM you have "light" going through the fiber. Distance you could go with MM fiber is limited considerably, usually the limits were about 550 meters IIRC

Single mode (SM) fiber has come down in cost with new manufacturing more cost effective technologies therefore it is the standard for now and the future, many people, general contractors, architects, project managers etc. will tell you they still use MM but that's is because they really don't know too much of a difference. SM will let you go way farther in distance (miles), with single mode you have a "laser" not light going through the fiber.

The real important thing with this fiber application you are all using is the shielding of the unit, SFP's used and switches used. This is critical to avoid RFI

 

[luisma]

And my advise use normal distance SFP's for single mode (less than 5 miles), the more complex and the more distance the SFP have the more RFI should generate, although shielding could be actually better on those, as a matter of fact I haven't tested those, but I know it will increase the radiated RFI.

 

Stay away from BiDi at all cost, even wider spectrum RFI, use regular dual fibers LC's SFP's

 

Ubiquity is a great brand and very inexpensive

 

Avoid the FMC's (fiber media converters) if possible

 

My 2 cents

 

[luisma]

On 5/22/2020 at 11:45 AM, ASRMichael said:

Hi, thoughts I would share my new build

I'm surprised no one have asked what material you are using to block EMI at the front of the chassis, could you please share?