A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

For those struggling with their machines because of lack of dual native LAN ports or for those looking to start from scratch and are looking for a relatively inexpensive and simple solution to run Roon (and possibly HQP), this device might be an elegant solution:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Fanless-industrial-processor-wireless-Windows/dp/B01CQL9GKK/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1484513553&sr=8-8&keywords=qotom+i7

 

This device is interesting to me because of a few features:

 

1. It utilizes an i7 4500U processor with a fairly light electrical footprint (TDP 15w) and yet, it has a very desirable 4MB secondary cache which is ideal for Roon. Because it sports a dual core CPU capable of 3GHz speeds, it could be handy for HQP for those with more modest upsampling ambitions.

 

2. You can power it with a 12V LPSU.

 

3. It is housed in a fanless chassis and what is hopefully a relatively resonant-free aluminum chassis.

 

4. Compact form factor = short signal paths = low impedance

 

5. Price includes 64GB SSD which should be sufficient for any OS + RoonServer + Roon database

 

6. Incorporates 2 mini-PCIE slots which is huge for me because storage on the PCIE bus (whether it be OS or music storage) results in better SQ compared to SATA (possibly due to lower latency). Also, this obviates the need for expensive audiophile-grade SATA cables (which do make a difference with SATA drives). In my own listening comparisons, PCIE SSDs result in improved detail retrieval, greater immediacy and potentially less noise compared with a SATA SSD. Of course, SATA SSDs have the potential for greater capacity (which isn't a big deal for an OS drive).

 

I have a similar model (but i5 not i7) and can confirm it works well. I use an SSD disk and was wondering whether, for a server, it really matters whether the OS is on a SSD or msata?

[baconbrain]

Baconbrain,

 

How much an improvement in SQ after all was said and done?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

Hi Lionelh2,

 

Since my main amp/Dac is currently being upgraded by the manufacturer, this is a question I really can't answer at the moment, but for me it also about simplifying the signal path. I my particular case, this direct connection between my music pc and the mR takes 2 switches out of the equation, which IMO can only be beneficial.

[romaz]

I have a similar model (but i5 not i7) and can confirm it works well. I use an SSD disk and was wondering whether, for a server, it really matters whether the OS is on a SSD or msata?

It's not a night and day difference but in my system, it is a meaningful one, nonetheless. If you are happy with how your system sounds or if it is impractical to move to the PCIE bus, then I would say leave well enough alone.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Thanks. I started out with a 500 gb SSD with a partition for the OS and roon, and my library on the rest

As I am ripping more CDs I am quickly running out of space. I may get a msata soon anyway, put my library on a large USB drive, and have the SSD for travelling. I think that would make sense. The server also has an SD card slot, however, and I was contemplating using that as am alternative... Not sure it could boot from the SD card however. Too many options!

[austinpop]

So now, my Mini can see:

• MinimServer on my NAS (my entire library)
  
• MinimServer on the W10 box (just the test collection of music)
  
• Tidal
  

SQ comparisons to come, once the bustle in the house subsides, and I can listen critically.

I hate to be the bearer of contrary news. I very much wanted this approach to give me a meaningful increase in SQ. But I have to report that in my setup, connecting my Aries Mini streamer directly to a bridged W10 machine did not give me any discernible improvement over going through a switch.

 

I spent several hours on this comparison. I tried 2 network paths (switched vs bridged), and 3 music servers (MinimServer on NAS, MinimServer on W10 bridge, Tidal), so a total of 6 combinations. The music files resided on the NAS and the W10 SSD respectively.

 

As I also mentioned, I was using very resolving headphones (Focal Utopia) for this exercise, so any SQ differences should have been very apparent. I heard no appreciable SQ difference between:

• switched vs Bridged
  
• MinimServer on W10, music on SSD vs. MinimServer on NAS, music on NAS.
  

Bummer - but remember a few things:

• the improvements so far have been primarily reported for the mR and SMS-200, using Roon, HQPlayer or both
  
• my endpoint is an Aries Mini server, using DLNA/UPnP (MinimServer)
  
• my chain has already been highly optimized with isolation tweaks on: AC (dedicated circuit, P5 AC Regenerator), DC (LPSes, ultracap supplies), network (DC blockers, isolator, FMCs), and USB (Intona, RUR)
  

As I mentioned before, there are still some lingering network issues in my bridged configuration. The bridge machine itself cannot see any machines on my network, although can get out to the internet fine. I suspect it's some ARP cache issue, but chose to defer troubleshooting.

 

I happen to have diagrams of my audio and network topologies, so I am posting here for your reference.

Audio Topology

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]32482[/ATTACH]

 

Baseline (switched) Network Topology

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]32483[/ATTACH]

 

Bridged Network Topology

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]32484[/ATTACH]

[clipper]

Bummer - but remember a few things:

 

• the improvements so far have been primarily reported for the mR and SMS-200, using Roon, HQPlayer or both
  
• my endpoint is an Aries Mini server, using DLNA/UPnP(MinimServer)
  
• my chain has already been highly optimized with isolation tweaks on: AC (dedicated circuit, P5 AC Regenerator), DC (LPSes, ultracap supplies), network (DC blockers, isolator, FMCs), and USB (Intona, RUR)
  

Interesting.

 

I can't see the topology diagrams you posted (invalid attachment error), but did you try removing some of the network optimizations (like FMCs)?

 

Where are your FMCs? Mine used to sit between my computer and network player. My equipment, once NICs are bridged that allow for a direct connection between computer and network player, definitely sounds better when I remove the FMCs.

[austinpop]

Interesting.

 

I can't see the topology diagrams you posted (invalid attachment error), but did you try removing some of the network optimizations (like FMCs)?

 

Where are your FMCs? Mine used to sit between my computer and network player. My equipment, once NICs are bridged that allow for a direct connection between computer and network player, definitely sounds better when I remove the FMCs.

 

Hmm, that's strange. Let me reattach.

 

Audio Topology

 

 

Baseline (switched) Network Topology

 

 

Bridged Network Topology

 

[clipper]

Hmm, that's strange. Let me reattach.

 

 

Thanks. I can see the diagrams now.

 

If you have time, it would be interesting to test the bridged configuration without the FMCs sitting between your Windows 10 machine and audio chain.

[austinpop]

Thanks. I can see the diagrams now.

 

If you have time, it would be interesting to test the bridged configuration without the FMCs sitting between your Windows 10 machine and audio chain.

 

One of the biggest improvements in my chain came from the addition of FMC's in general, and the LPS-1 to my downstream FMC, in particular. Removing that would be a pretty big step back.

 

But heck - it's an easy enough experiment to try. Will report back.

[clipper]

One of the biggest improvements in my chain came from the addition of FMC's in general, and the LPS-1 to my downstream FMC, in particular. Removing that would be a pretty big step back.

But heck - it's an easy enough experiment to try. Will report back.

 

Cool.

 

Me too. FMCs and LPS-1 driving downstream FMC were very helpful. That is, until the network bridge and direct connection...

 

Now, it is easy to tell (at least here, on my equipment) that a direct connection with no FMCs is better than a direct connection with FMCs (and better than the old method of connection with FMCs).

[rowli]

Tried direct connection from Mac mini to microRendu (NAA) tonight. Big improvement! I perceive it as removal of grain, more detailed, yet more warm/relaxed sound.

Great tip Romaz, Thanks!

[lmitche]

Cool.

 

Me too. FMCs and LPS-1 driving downstream FMC were very helpful. That is, until the network bridge and direct connection...

 

Now, it is easy to tell (at least here, on my equipment) that a direct connection with no FMCs is better than a direct connection with FMCs (and better than the old method of connection with FMCs).

The EMOsystems en70hd will likely still add value. It does here.

[clipper]

The EMOsystems en70hd will likely still add value. It does here.

 

I actually have one being delivered tomorrow (based on your recommendation!).

 

I should hook it up between computer and network player?

[lmitche]

Yes, same place as FMCs.

[clipper]

Yes, same place as FMCs.

 

Thanks!

[austinpop]

Cool.

 

Me too. FMCs and LPS-1 driving downstream FMC were very helpful. That is, until the network bridge and direct connection...

 

Now, it is easy to tell (at least here, on my equipment) that a direct connection with no FMCs is better than a direct connection with FMCs (and better than the old method of connection with FMCs).

 

OK I have some findings. Very interesting results! Thanks for pointing me in this direction.

 

I compared the following:

 

1. switch > FMCs > Aries Mini
   
2. switch > Aries Mini
   
3. bridge > Aries Mini
   
4. bridge > FMCs > Aries Mini
   

 

1 is my current configuration. My previous results were based on comparing 4 with 1.

 

Comparisons

1. 2 vs 1 (remove FMCs): yup, expected drop in SQ.
   
2. 3 vs 2 (switch to bridge, no FMCs): wow, big improvement!
   
3. 3 vs 1: this is a wash, to my ears. About the same. See conclusions below
   
4. 4 vs 3: (add FMCs between bridge and Aries Mini): minimal impact, if any.
   

Conclusions

 

In my setup, the bridged connection provides about the same improvement as putting FMCs between the switch and my Aries Mini. Refer to my diagrams in my previous post. The two FMCs are powered by Teralink X1/X2 (upstream FMC) and the Uptone LPS-1 (downstream FMC).

 

So on the one hand, by going bridged, I can eliminate the FMCs, and repurpose my LPS-1 for something else. But on the other hand, I abhor the presence of the PC in my listening room. And - I still have some lingering network issues with the bridge. In addition to the SMB woes I mentioned in my previous post, I also found today that my control point (lightning DS app on my iPhone) would lose contact with the Aries Mini in the bridged configuration. I know this relies on UPnP and multicast support in all routers and switches, so it's possible the bridge messes with that.

 

The right answer for me, at this point, is to close the chapter on bridging and go back to my switched environment. At least I won't be wondering if I was missing out on some unclaimed SQ improvements.

 

I may revisit this if/when I decide to get an SMS-200, and/or try Roon.

[lateboomer]

Not wanting to take credit for the hard work of others, here a bit more detail as to my system and the steps I took, with quotes/links to the references used;

 

My music PC is currently running a standard Windows 10 build with a Gigabyte GA-Z170N Gaming 5 Mobo. The motherboard has an on-board Killer E2200 Ethernet NIC, 11ac 867 Mbps dual band wireless controller, and USB 3.1. connectivity.

 

Initially I attempted to set-up a Network Bridge utilizing an DLock 3.0 USB to Ethernet Adapter. Regardless if I set the bridge up with Internet Access via the on-board Ethernet NIC, or the USB adapter (USB 3.0 as well as 2.0), the results were the same. HQPlayer would not recognize the mR in NAA mode and the data through-put (upload from music PC) was in the basement.

 

I then dumped the USB Ethernet Adapter and setup my Internet Access over the wireless controller, leaving the mR disconnected and the on-board Ethernet Port free. I let DHCP assign an IP Address and successfully tested connectivity with full through-put. It should be noted that I placed the wireless controller antenna directly adjacent to my Access Point.

 

I rebooted the PC and then connected the mR directly to on-board Ethernet link and manually assigned an IP and Subnet to the IP V4 properties for the Ethernet NIC (leaving the DHCP assigned wireless settings unchanged) as shown in this thread from Clipper:

 

 

 

Once that was done, I then established the Network bridge as shown here: How to set up and manage a Network Bridge connection on Windows 10 | Windows Central. It should be noted that it is not absolutely necessary to assign a static IP to the bridge as stated in the article. Internet / LAN connectivity will work with the settings assigned by windows when the bridge is established. I chose to use a static IP as that performs better with the settings of my NAS, etc.

 

Last but not least, I rebooted the PC and then verfied the newly assigned IP address for the mR and successfully connected to it via WebGui. Once I was certain that the mR was responding, I started HQPlayer with fingers crossed and voila, it worked!

 

I can now stream via Roon, HQPlayer, Tidal, and local/NAS library files at 192 / 24 with no stuttering, clicks or other annoyances.

 

Hope this helps and good luck.

I also able to do this using built-in WiFi. But it is not fully stable. After about an hour or more of playing, hqplayer will suddenly stop if WiFi suffer connection dropout

 

Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[lateboomer]

I have not tried out promiscuous mode with built-in WiFi yet. Could it improve stability?

Even though I put the Tplink N wireless router very near to the music pc laptop, but still dropout would happen.

Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[Superdad]

OK I have some findings. Very interesting results! Thanks for pointing me in this direction.

 

I compared the following:

 

1. switch > FMCs > Aries Mini
   
2. switch > Aries Mini
   
3. bridge > Aries Mini
   
4. bridge > FMCs > Aries Mini
   

 

1 is my current configuration. My previous results were based on comparing 4 with 1.

 

Comparisons

1. 2 vs 1 (remove FMCs): yup, expected drop in SQ.
   
2. 3 vs 2 (switch to bridge, no FMCs): wow, big improvement!
   
3. 3 vs 1: this is a wash, to my ears. About the same. See conclusions below
   
4. 4 vs 3: (add FMCs between bridge and Aries Mini): minimal impact, if any.
   

Conclusions

 

In my setup, the bridged connection provides about the same improvement as putting FMCs between the switch and my Aries Mini. Refer to my diagrams in my previous post. The two FMCs are powered by Teralink X1/X2 (upstream FMC) and the Uptone LPS-1 (downstream FMC).

 

So on the one hand, by going bridged, I can eliminate the FMCs, and repurpose my LPS-1 for something else. But on the other hand, I abhor the presence of the PC in my listening room. And - I still have some lingering network issues with the bridge. In addition to the SMB woes I mentioned in my previous post, I also found today that my control point (lightning DS app on my iPhone) would lose contact with the Aries Mini in the bridged configuration. I know this relies on UPnP and multicast support in all routers and switches, so it's possible the bridge messes with that.

 

The right answer for me, at this point, is to close the chapter on bridging and go back to my switched environment. At least I won't be wondering if I was missing out on some unclaimed SQ improvements.

 

I may revisit this if/when I decide to get an SMS-200, and/or try Roon.

 

Maybe I should fly you out to my place in Yosemite so you can do all the experiments on MY system that I never have time to!

[austinpop]

Maybe I should fly you out to my place in Yosemite so you can do all the experiments on MY system that I never have time to!

You sending your private jet, El Capitan?

[romaz]

OK I have some findings. Very interesting results! Thanks for pointing me in this direction.

 

I compared the following:

 

1. switch > FMCs > Aries Mini
   
2. switch > Aries Mini
   
3. bridge > Aries Mini
   
4. bridge > FMCs > Aries Mini
   

 

1 is my current configuration. My previous results were based on comparing 4 with 1.

 

Comparisons

1. 2 vs 1 (remove FMCs): yup, expected drop in SQ.
   
2. 3 vs 2 (switch to bridge, no FMCs): wow, big improvement!
   
3. 3 vs 1: this is a wash, to my ears. About the same. See conclusions below
   
4. 4 vs 3: (add FMCs between bridge and Aries Mini): minimal impact, if any.
   

Conclusions

 

In my setup, the bridged connection provides about the same improvement as putting FMCs between the switch and my Aries Mini. Refer to my diagrams in my previous post. The two FMCs are powered by Teralink X1/X2 (upstream FMC) and the Uptone LPS-1 (downstream FMC).

 

So on the one hand, by going bridged, I can eliminate the FMCs, and repurpose my LPS-1 for something else. But on the other hand, I abhor the presence of the PC in my listening room. And - I still have some lingering network issues with the bridge. In addition to the SMB woes I mentioned in my previous post, I also found today that my control point (lightning DS app on my iPhone) would lose contact with the Aries Mini in the bridged configuration. I know this relies on UPnP and multicast support in all routers and switches, so it's possible the bridge messes with that.

 

The right answer for me, at this point, is to close the chapter on bridging and go back to my switched environment. At least I won't be wondering if I was missing out on some unclaimed SQ improvements.

 

I may revisit this if/when I decide to get an SMS-200, and/or try Roon.

No one can fault you for your effort, that's for sure. I have been getting the sense for some time now that this "direct" connection tweak benefits mainly the mR and sMS-200, with or without HQP. This finding adds further to the mystique of what is actually happening with this direct connection. A real head scratcher...

[Superdad]

No one can fault you for your effort, that's for sure. I have been getting the sense for some time now that this "direct" connection tweak benefits mainly the mR and sMS-200, with or without HQP. This finding adds further to the mystique of what is actually happening with this direct connection. A real head scratcher...

 

I wouldn't say that at all. I've been doing direct Mac to Mac connection for 3 years years now--primarily to get shared music files on my drives to sound as good as from local SD card (see: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f27-uptone-audio-sponsored/uh-oh-i-beat-my-sd-card-trick%3B-bypass-your-ethernet-switch-and-make-your-external-drives-sound-close-ram-disk-using-apple-thunderbolt-ethernet-adaptor-and-second-network-connection-18475/)

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

[baconbrain]

I also able to do this using built-in WiFi. But it is not fully stable. After about an hour or more of playing, hqplayer will suddenly stop if WiFi suffer connection dropout

 

I had the opportunity to do some extended testing last night (3 hours of streaming) and had no issues. Realize that doesn't help with your situation.

 

Your issue sounds to similar to a problem I had with an Auralic Aries. I could stream music for about 20 mins and then it would just stop. You could almost predict it with a stop watch. Unfortunately I never figured out what really caused the problem and ended up selling the Aries.

 

Can you still connect to the mR from the PC which is hosting HQplayer after it stops?

[lateboomer]

I had the opportunity to do some extended testing last night (3 hours of streaming) and had no issues. Realize that doesn't help with your situation.

 

Your issue sounds to similar to a problem I had with an Auralic Aries. I could stream music for about 20 mins and then it would just stop. You could almost predict it with a stop watch. Unfortunately I never figured out what really caused the problem and ended up selling the Aries.

 

Can you still connect to the mR from the PC which is hosting HQplayer after it stops?

While my client naa is Intel nuc but running audiolinux. After music stopped, I opened settings and saw music device still highlighted and I would press OK to pick it up again naa connection. Then I could play another 1 hour plus before it would stop again. As you said very predictable behavior. If I don't click settings I got to continue clicking the song in Playlist until it plays again

 

Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[baconbrain]

While my client naa is Intel nuc but running audiolinux. After music stopped, I opened settings and saw music device still highlighted and I would press OK to pick it up again naa connection. Then I could play another 1 hour plus before it would stop again. As you said very predictable behavior. If I don't click settings I got to continue clicking the song in Playlist until it plays again

 

Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

Hmmm, have you checked if you have any power / energy saving modes active for the OS or wireless controller?