A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[clipper]

Multiple Network Players -

 

If anyone has more than 1 microRendu, sMS-200, etc., and the ability to add more network adapters (via a free PCI-E slot, for example), doing so works well. One adapter can connect to your regular network (with, presumably, a gateway to the Internet). The other adapters can each connect directly to a network player.

 

I just threw in another NIC and added it to the existing bridge. Everything is working as expected.

 

 

Romaz, I have had 3 other people try your "tip" already, and they all love it. If there's ever a tip of the year award here (at CA), I nominate your tip. Thanks again.

[tboooe]

Yeah I guess those whacky guys at Jplay were way ahead of their time!

[clipper]

Yeah I guess those whacky guys at Jplay were way ahead of their time!

 

Love those guys (Josef and Marcin).

[[email protected]]

Can anyone confirm if "Y" shaped, dual conduit cables work with the Microrendu via the data line only? I have not made a successful connection using the RAL Prophecy USB.

 

*None of the DAC's I currently own require a VBUS connection and neither does the Offramp 5 that sits between components.

 

is there a known method to handshake the Mrendu with a data only connection?

[tboooe]

Can anyone confirm if "Y" shaped, dual conduit cables work with the Microrendu via the data line only? I have not made a successful connection using the RAL Prophecy USB.

 

*None of the DAC's I currently own require a VBUS connection and neither does the Offramp 5 that sits between components.

 

is there a known method to handshake the Mrendu with a data only connection?

 

I recently demo'd a microrendu with a split usb cable. In my case, my USB converter needs the 5v for handshake only. Once the handshake was established I was able to remove the 5v supplied from my lps and the microrendu worked fine.

[romaz]

Multiple Network Players -

 

If anyone has more than 1 microRendu, sMS-200, etc., and the ability to add more network adapters (via a free PCI-E slot, for example), doing so works well. One adapter can connect to your regular network (with, presumably, a gateway to the Internet). The other adapters can each connect directly to a network player.

 

I just threw in another NIC and added it to the existing bridge. Everything is working as expected.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]32419[/ATTACH]

 

Romaz, I have had 3 other people try your "tip" already, and they all love it. If there's ever a tip of the year award here (at CA), I nominate your tip. Thanks again.

Thanks, Clipper. I appreciate all your helpful advice with Windows! I am hoping to get my Windows machine bridged this weekend.

[[email protected]]

I recently demo'd a microrendu with a split usb cable. In my case, my USB converter needs the 5v for handshake only. Once the handshake was established I was able to remove the 5v supplied from my lps and the microrendu worked fine.

Ah, thanks for that. It could very much be the case that the Offramp similarly needs the 5v for handshake only. I tried supplying the 5v from a MacBook Pro, but it didn't take. I'll try what you did with an LPS or an XP rechargeable power pack.

 

*meantime I'm surprised to what extent I'm enjoying the included usb adaptor (perhaps more so than any of the cables I've tried thus far (Curious, Blackstar, Supra).

[Alan_J]

Tried many different ways of bridging. Bridging itself is working, but stuttering starts 3 seconds into any song. Will try PCI lan card instead of TP-Link USB ethernet adapter. Thanks for helpful suggestions. By the way, I upgraded sms-200 to v3.2 and find significant sound improvement. Is it just electricity on quiet Sunday? SMS-200 sounds better than ever. Even without direct connection, happy listening.

[lateboomer]

I have followed Clipper settings that ip address set to 10.0.0.5 for direct ethernet connection between laptop default ethernet port of Hqplayer to client NAA. Amid there is FMC fiber optic setup between Hqplayer and NAA.

 

Then I set ip for usb to ethernet adapter which connected to Tplink wireless N router to 192.168.0.100, with default gateway of 192.168.0.1.

 

I able to bridge these 2 lan networks together. However, Hqplayer failed to see NAA and I guessed DHCP of TPlink router didn't assign ip to NAA. So then I connected to the wireless connection of that Tplink router and added it also to the bridge. Only then Hqplayer was able to see NAA and DHCP was working and assigned ip to NAA.

 

So I not sure how to get lan to lan bridging working and dhcp able to assign ip. I believe lan-to-lan bridging should be more stable, compared to lan-to-wifi bridging. As if I use lan-to-wifi bridging, Hqplayer would stop to play suddenly after around 1 hour. I have to continue refresh Hqplayer settings to pick up NAA again to resume play. I didn't suffer stutter and sounding was good. Just that Hqplayer would suddenly stop playing without warning. Anyone encounters similar issue?

 

My laptop is Win 10 Home edition. My NAA is Intel NUC running on Audiolinux.

[clipper]

I have followed Clipper settings that ip address set to 10.0.0.5 for direct ethernet connection between laptop default ethernet port of Hqplayer to client NAA. Amid there is FMC fiber optic setup between Hqplayer and NAA.

 

Then I set ip for usb to ethernet adapter which connected to Tplink wireless N router to 192.168.0.100, with default gateway of 192.168.0.1.

 

I able to bridge these 2 lan networks together. However, Hqplayer failed to see NAA and I guessed DHCP of TPlink router didn't assign ip to NAA. So then I connected to the wireless connection of that Tplink router and added it also to the bridge. Only then Hqplayer was able to see NAA and DHCP was working and assigned ip to NAA.

 

So I not sure how to get lan to lan bridging working and dhcp able to assign ip. I believe lan-to-lan bridging should be more stable, compared to lan-to-wifi bridging. As if I use lan-to-wifi bridging, Hqplayer would stop to play suddenly after around 1 hour. I have to continue refresh Hqplayer settings to pick up NAA again to resume play. I didn't suffer stutter and sounding was good. Just that Hqplayer would suddenly stop playing without warning. Anyone encounters similar issue?

 

My laptop is Win 10 Home edition. My NAA is Intel NUC running on Audiolinux.

 

When you establish the lan to lan bridge again, maybe try manually assigning the following IPv4 settings to the network bridge:

IP Address = 192.168.0.85 (assuming that's not assigned to anything else and is also outside your DHCP server's DHCP range; if that's not the case, pick something else that's unassigned and outside DHCP range); Subnet Mask = 255.255.255.0; Default Gateway = 192.168.0.1; DNS Server = 192.168.0.1.

[lateboomer]

When you establish the lan to lan bridge again, maybe try manually assigning the following IPv4 settings to the network bridge:

IP Address = 192.168.0.85 (assuming that's not assigned to anything else and is also outside your DHCP server's DHCP range; if that's not the case, pick something else that's unassigned and outside DHCP range); Subnet Mask = 255.255.255.0; Default Gateway = 192.168.0.1; DNS Server = 192.168.0.1.

I set IP Address = 192.168.0.85 for the network bridge, but still Hqplayer unable to detect NAA.

 

I also found something interesting, when I did lan-to-lan bridging, the status for the network bridge didn't show IPv4 DHCP ip and IPv4 DNS ip. Then when I did lan-to-wifi bridging, both IPv4 DHCP ip and IPv4 DNS ip were available at network bridge's status, and Hqplayer able to detect NAA.

 

Also, about Hqplayer stopped playing after about 1 hour time, I suspected since my music stored at external usb drive and the usb to ethernet adaptor also usb related, this may cause stability issue which maybe some how Hqplayer related. So I copied one music file into internal laptop drive and played from there in repeated mode. So far it looks quite promising.

[lateboomer]

Nah. Stability doesn't improve even I play the file from internal drive with lan-to-wifi bridging. Hqplayer will still stop abruptly about an hour of playing.

[clipper]

For those of you having problems when using a USB to Ethernet adapter:

 

I did a little reading and the problem may be that to be used in the bridge, the network adapter has to be capable of working in promiscuous mode. See Promiscuous Mode.

 

It sounds like some (many?) of the USB to Ethernet adapters don't do promiscuous mode.

 

I guess you can try to find a USB to Ethernet adapter that works in promiscuous mode. See USB to Ethernet Adapter and Promiscuous Mode, for example.

 

I guess it's also possible to try to force an adapter to run in promiscuous mode. See Enable Promiscuous Mode (Manually) in Windows 7.

[tboooe]

Something else to consider with USB to anything adapters is the power settings. I believe when I used one I had to make sure the USB power saving setting was turned off.

[baconbrain]

Success!

 

I was also using an USB 3,0 Lan Adapter in my bridge which was:

 

1) Not allowing me to connect with HQPlayer to the mR in NAA mode.

 

2) Negatively impacting the through-put of my music pc. (Upload less than 1 Mbit)

 

I setup another bridge with an on-board wireless NIC and the mR connected directly to my on-board ethernet NIC and presto, it works like a charm!

 

Really happy now.

[tboooe]

Success!

 

I was also using an USB 3,0 Lan Adapter in my bridge which was:

 

1) Not allowing me to connect with HQPlayer to the mR in NAA mode.

 

2) Negatively impacting the through-put of my music pc. (Upload less than 1 Mbit)

 

I setup another bridge with an on-board wireless NIC and the mR connected directly to my on-board ethernet NIC and presto, it works like a charm!

 

Really happy now.

 

Awesome! Perhaps for the benefit of others can you post detailed steps you took to achieve this?

[romaz]

For those struggling with their machines because of lack of dual native LAN ports or for those looking to start from scratch and are looking for a relatively inexpensive and simple solution to run Roon (and possibly HQP), this device might be an elegant solution:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Fanless-industrial-processor-wireless-Windows/dp/B01CQL9GKK/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1484513553&sr=8-8&keywords=qotom+i7

 

This device is interesting to me because of a few features:

 

1. It utilizes an i7 4500U processor with a fairly light electrical footprint (TDP 15w) and yet, it has a very desirable 4MB secondary cache which is ideal for Roon. Because it sports a dual core CPU capable of 3GHz speeds, it could be handy for HQP for those with more modest upsampling ambitions.

 

2. You can power it with a 12V LPSU.

 

3. It is housed in a fanless chassis and what is hopefully a relatively resonant-free aluminum chassis.

 

4. Compact form factor = short signal paths = low impedance

 

5. Price includes 64GB SSD which should be sufficient for any OS + RoonServer + Roon database

 

6. Incorporates 2 mini-PCIE slots which is huge for me because storage on the PCIE bus (whether it be OS or music storage) results in better SQ compared to SATA (possibly due to lower latency). Also, this obviates the need for expensive audiophile-grade SATA cables (which do make a difference with SATA drives). In my own listening comparisons, PCIE SSDs result in improved detail retrieval, greater immediacy and potentially less noise compared with a SATA SSD. Of course, SATA SSDs have the potential for greater capacity (which isn't a big deal for an OS drive).

[phusis]

It could sound better and I'm open to anything that sounds better. Based on what May Park of SOtM has said, however, this wifi connectivity with the sMS-200 sounds no better than the standard connection, it is supposed to be more of a convenience option. When I connected a USB drive directly to the SOtM's USB port, it still didn't sound as good as this direct connection between my Mac Mini and the sMS-200.

 

In an email to May Park close to a week ago I inquired on the sonic assessment of the wifi-route, and as of Jan. 9th she had yet to make any evaluation hereof (still pending). So, it's still up in the air how Ms. Park (and her engineering team) will come to value the sonic potential of wifi connectivity through the sMS-200 - which of course may prove a variable outcome compared to other setups.

 

I, on the hand, have had some days now to assess the sound through wifi; last Thursday I received my Edimax wifi-dongle (the one recommended by SOtM), and after a trouble free setup and configuration (that is, almost; initially my Kazoo control couldn't "see" the sMS-200 until entering the Eunhasu page though the new IP-address and a following reboot) I've come to some interesting findings:

 

My earlier, cabled configuration was from a Cisco router>iSO-CAT6>sMS-200, and the sound here was a generally pleasing, but occasionally mixed bag. Resolution and saturation was usually top notch, but the sound was slightly marred by a "lightness" or lean character and, depending on the day (atmospheric conditions, outlet noise, mood, etc.), could also appear rather soft around the edges - even veiled.

 

Through wifi (router placed only some 2 meters from the sMS-200) there's a rather audible lift in vitality, clarity and low end solidity/presence, and overall the presentation has a less restrained, more effortless appeal. Sitting down to take a listen these impressions are instant, and there's a general and spontaneous pleasantness to the sound; I just very simply like the "nature" of what I hear, and while this may at first exclude a more analytical judgment, when such is finally made, the initial "pleasantness" is only confirmed.

 

What strikes me is the consistency of the wifi-impressions, now going through the 4th day, and even 24/192kHz files have played with no dropouts/stuttering whatsoever (I have though experienced very rare "clicks" during playback, strangely only through 16/44.1kHz files). A few times I've had some trouble finding the sMS-200 from my control point, but other than that no issues to speak of.

 

In conclusion (though my evaluation of wifi is ongoing), I very much like the overall balance of the sound through wifi, and it's my preferred configuration as is. Now I need to try out ROON, and possibly even think about a Paul Hynes PSU inclusion...

 

Tried many different ways of bridging. Bridging itself is working, but stuttering starts 3 seconds into any song. Will try PCI lan card instead of TP-Link USB ethernet adapter. Thanks for helpful suggestions. By the way, I upgraded sms-200 to v3.2 and find significant sound improvement. Is it just electricity on quiet Sunday? SMS-200 sounds better than ever. Even without direct connection, happy listening.

 

Last Friday I upgraded to v3.2 as well, but through Thursday (after installing and using the wifi-dongle) have noticed no real sonic changes to speak of. Perhaps others, like Alan, feels differently?

[Lionelh2]

Success!

 

I was also using an USB 3,0 Lan Adapter in my bridge which was:

 

1) Not allowing me to connect with HQPlayer to the mR in NAA mode.

 

2) Negatively impacting the through-put of my music pc. (Upload less than 1 Mbit)

 

I setup another bridge with an on-board wireless NIC and the mR connected directly to my on-board ethernet NIC and presto, it works like a charm!

 

Really happy now.

 

Been frustrated all day trying to get a USB/Ethernet adaptor working. Everything good, except no NAA joy in HQ Player.

 

Cant wait to try this approach.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[ducatirider]

I switched to fibre internet Friday and got a new modem. I disabled wireless and use a Netgear nighthawk for wifi through dedicated port 1. But my USB nic's IPv4 address keeps changing. How do I set this? The modem is a T3200 from telus.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[austinpop]

Like @romaz, I hang out both here and on head-fi. As it happens, I have the Focal Utopia headphones in the house for a week, so coupled with my Cavalli LAu, I have a very revealing setup to do listening evals. What better time and backdrop to test the bridging improvement.

 

Of course, my Synology experiment was a bust. But then...

 

Why not try running MinimServer on the W10 desktop and configure it in bridged mode? You could either have MinimServer configured to just read from either a folder on your NAS or a folder locally on the W10 desktop containing some music files. Could be a quick and dirty way just to see if there would be value in pursuing this further.

 

Pursuing this sensible suggestion, I repurposed an unused Dell XPS 8700 desktop I had laying around. It's a Quad Core i7, with a 256GB SSD, and a 1TB HDD. Not something I would let into my listening room, but for this experiment, I brought it down to my den. I threw on W10 Enterprise, installed MinimServer, and pointed it at my NAS. Then, along with my just-arrived $15 Amazon USB Ethernet adapter, I began to play.

 

In terms of AC connections, I put the W10 box, its monitor, and the Ethernet switch (powered by Jameco 5v LPS wart) on a separate AC circuit, in an effort to minimize noise.

 

I won't bore you with all the combinations. My first attempt to bridge just the Ethernet adapters was a bust. Just like others have complained. This config was just weird. I had to manually delete the bridge adapter, and the 2 ethernet adapters in device manager to start over.

 

Eventually, I had success with this path:

• Create bridge with Wifi and built-in ethernet adapters
  
• set static IP on bridge adapter
  
• set promiscuous mode manually. This was key. Use the commands:
  
  • netsh bridge show adapter. For each adapter shown, run like so:
    
  • netsh bridge set adapter 1 forcecompatmode=enable
    
  • netsh bridge set adapter 2 forcecompatmode=enable
    

  [*]add USB ethernet to the bridge

  [*]delete wifi adapter from bridge

  [*]Run netsh bridge show adapter again, and set promiscuous mode on the USB ethernet adapter, if necessary.

At this point, my Aries Mini, after a reboot, was up and running with a DHCP address, and could see:

• MinimServer on my NAS
  
• Tidal
  

But now, my W10 box running the bridge could not see my NAS, or any SMB file services. Very strange. Regular access - Chrome, mail, etc works just fine. This needs to be debugged. I figured I would do it once this approach is proven out.

 

Since MinimServer on the W10 bridge box couldn't see the NAS any more, I moved some of my music files onto the W10 box's SSD, and pointed MinimServer to it locally.

 

So now, my Mini can see:

• MinimServer on my NAS (my entire library)
  
• MinimServer on the W10 box (just the test collection of music)
  
• Tidal
  

SQ comparisons to come, once the bustle in the house subsides, and I can listen critically.

[WynnHiFi]

But now, my W10 box running the bridge could not see my NAS, or any SMB file services. Very strange. Regular access - Chrome, mail, etc works just fine. This needs to be debugged. I figured I would do it once this approach is proven out.

 

I had the same problem. Could logon my NAS through Chrome, but not through Finder. Restarted my NAS and was able to access my files.

 

 

 

WynnHiFi

[lateboomer]

For those of you having problems when using a USB to Ethernet adapter:

 

I did a little reading and the problem may be that to be used in the bridge, the network adapter has to be capable of working in promiscuous mode. See Promiscuous Mode.

 

It sounds like some (many?) of the USB to Ethernet adapters don't do promiscuous mode.

 

I guess you can try to find a USB to Ethernet adapter that works in promiscuous mode. See USB to Ethernet Adapter and Promiscuous Mode, for example.

 

I guess it's also possible to try to force an adapter to run in promiscuous mode. See Enable Promiscuous Mode (Manually) in Windows 7.

Thank you for the suggestion, very much appreciated.

 

I tried Promiscuous Mode either for Hqplayer ethernet. I also turned on the mode for the router side ethernet which was not needed. It worked and allowed Hqplayer to see NAA in lan-to-lan bridging. You should get an award for this.

 

However, the downside is the sound now is severely stuttered and more like hanging. Hqplayer takes very long time to process to output sound. So I think using usb-to-ethernet adapter is a flawed method and like Romaz said, have to source for pc that have 2 ethernet ports. I guess.

[baconbrain]

Awesome! Perhaps for the benefit of others can you post detailed steps you took to achieve this?

 

Not wanting to take credit for the hard work of others, here a bit more detail as to my system and the steps I took, with quotes/links to the references used;

 

My music PC is currently running a standard Windows 10 build with a Gigabyte GA-Z170N Gaming 5 Mobo. The motherboard has an on-board Killer E2200 Ethernet NIC, 11ac 867 Mbps dual band wireless controller, and USB 3.1. connectivity.

 

Initially I attempted to set-up a Network Bridge utilizing an DLock 3.0 USB to Ethernet Adapter. Regardless if I set the bridge up with Internet Access via the on-board Ethernet NIC, or the USB adapter (USB 3.0 as well as 2.0), the results were the same. HQPlayer would not recognize the mR in NAA mode and the data through-put (upload from music PC) was in the basement.

 

I then dumped the USB Ethernet Adapter and setup my Internet Access over the wireless controller, leaving the mR disconnected and the on-board Ethernet Port free. I let DHCP assign an IP Address and successfully tested connectivity with full through-put. It should be noted that I placed the wireless controller antenna directly adjacent to my Access Point.

 

I rebooted the PC and then connected the mR directly to on-board Ethernet link and manually assigned an IP and Subnet to the IP V4 properties for the Ethernet NIC (leaving the DHCP assigned wireless settings unchanged) as shown in this thread from Clipper:

 

I broke the bridge (temporarily) to show you my settings for each NIC (as an example).

 

Also, the rest of my network is on a 192.168.1.* numbering scheme.

 

See attachments.

 

Then just select both NICs, right click on one and choose Bridge Connections.

 

Note: the private IP address the network bridge is pulling (at the moment) is 192.168.1.231. The microRendu is pulling 192.168.1.218.

 

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]32336[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]32337[/ATTACH]

 

Once that was done, I then established the Network bridge as shown here: How to set up and manage a Network Bridge connection on Windows 10 | Windows Central. It should be noted that it is not absolutely necessary to assign a static IP to the bridge as stated in the article. Internet / LAN connectivity will work with the settings assigned by windows when the bridge is established. I chose to use a static IP as that performs better with the settings of my NAS, etc.

 

Last but not least, I rebooted the PC and then verfied the newly assigned IP address for the mR and successfully connected to it via WebGui. Once I was certain that the mR was responding, I started HQPlayer with fingers crossed and voila, it worked!

 

I can now stream via Roon, HQPlayer, Tidal, and local/NAS library files at 192 / 24 with no stuttering, clicks or other annoyances.

 

Hope this helps and good luck.

[Lionelh2]

Baconbrain,

 

How much an improvement in SQ after all was said and done?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile