A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[luisma]

53 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

 

that could be your sig.

Second that 

 

[luisma]

On 5/20/2018 at 9:38 PM, charlesphoto said:

 

Related to this specific topic and I feel compelled to share my experience in regards to power supplies / ac adapters improving the SQ of audio. This is of course no news for many of you here but empirically it is for me. I will try to be brief.

 

I don't consider myself a complete audiophile nor I'm an expert in these matters, I'm a music aficionado who loves quality in audio and definition. I am also a network engineer working with bits and computers since 1984 and I consider myself a very objective person technology wise.

 

Until a few days ago I was a believer than replacing the SMPS by a good quality LPS should not create big dramatic changes on what you hear coming out of the speakers, a part of me used to think most of the people in these forums who have experienced these "clean currents theories" were "drinking the cool aid" and were subjected to some sort of massive induced beliefs created by some sort of placebo effect as their experiences are very very vivid in terms of soundstage, instrument separation, quietness of the backgrounds in audio, tighter bass etc. 

 

Another part of me (the practical one) was driven to actually believe the use of LPS's may change a few things here and there possibly improving audio quality by 4% to 6% more (or none at all) but nothing spectacular so I went ahead and purchased a few days ago an LPS1.2 from Uptone Audio.

 

My setup consist of a NUC with Roon Server running Tidal MQA as a decoder only feeding via network an Allo DietPi connected to a Pro-Ject S2 and my Yamaha AS2100 with P37F speakers and a powersoundaudio S3600i sealed sub.

 

Since I don't trust my hearing alone or my own brain judgement and without giving specifics I asked my wife (she is a pianist with 35 years playing) to listen to a song I know very well, School by Supertramp, there is a section of the song from minute 3 to 4 more or less that you have a few instruments well defined and working together, guitar, drums, bass, piano, synth etc. I know I should have selected more songs to make a more fair and consistent evaluation but was lacking time so.

 

We listened to this specific song section 5 times with the Allo and Pro-ject factory supplied SMPS and 5 times with the Allo and Pro-ject connected to an LPS1.2, everything else stayed the same, volume and eq settings, Roon settings, cables and connectors.

The difference in audio was to me night vs day. I did not say anything and waited for my wife to provide her own opinion and we were both in complete agreement the background was quieter and cleaner (I guess the right term is a quieter soundstage but I'm not too good with these terms), the instruments were "clearer and more defined", the entire audio experience was more balanced, the bass without the LPS was a little distorted but very precise and tight with the LPS feeding the DAC and Bridge. The only thing we missed was the actual instrument sound, the bass chord strokes, felt more defined without the LPS but after listening several times we realized that it did not lacked definition but without the LPS all instruments were very far in the background and the bass was more noticeable as it was alone in the front end whether with the LPS bringing all the instruments forward created a more coherent and balanced sound and the bass chords were sharing the sound with the other instruments.

I feel with the Uptone Audio LPS1.2 like I'm listening to this song for the 1st time, also for the 1st time I'm hearing bass clarity on my sub and speakers, before bass was all over the place distorted sometimes, lost others, now it is for lack of a better word "tight" and "punchy".

 

I have a Powersound Audio S3600 which after 2 years of owning it I can finally start to appreciate, it is just ridiculous, the performance of the sub now is completely different with just adding the LPS to the chain, before I had distortion when increasing the crossover, now the sound it very very controlled and precise. As a matter of fact I have to start re calibrating my entire system and room now.

 

@JohnSwenson and @Superdad  and all of you who already knew and experienced this I would like to extend my apologies for being an incredulous and pragmatic hard headed techie, I was completely skeptical about this but I can confirm to myself now indeed that power quality matters if you want to improve SQ and enhance audio. My next test to try a few AC power cables, not the most expensive ones as my budget is limited but see if quality cables make any difference.

 

So just my 2 cents here, I thought I should share this as I found here in CA other people (funny thing is with my same background of computer engineering, networks, telecommunications etc) as pragmatic as I was and maybe if they read my comments will be willing to try something else to reach that Holy Grail of perfect SQ.

 

Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with Uptone Audio in any way with the exception I purchased their products which I consider excellent and very well built. I believe the only aspect these can be criticized is the lack of certain colors or finishes for certain products but I am not affected by it as look mainly at the performance and good engineering design rather than the aesthetics.

[luisma]

8 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Thanks for your excellent report. Skepticism is a valued attribute in a scientist, as is an acceptance of findings, even if they are contrary to hypotheses or assumptions.

 

I applaud your honesty, and am very glad to know your system is sounding better.

Thank you for the kind words

I was trying to be brief but .... you can judge by yourself ....  

[luisma]

3 hours ago, lmitche said:

I am connecting shields 1 and 2 with shield 5.

So not only creating a JS loop with shields 1 and 2 but also adding to the loop the individual shielding for each wire? so a loop of shield 1+2 +4 more shields for each wire? all connected together ?

[luisma]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

Yes all the copper shielding connected at the two ends but take to avoid the conductors under the DC barrel plug.

and I'm assuming if we use Supra CAT8 for Network and also for DC cables we lay down a tin copper sleeve outside and create the loop joining the added braided sleeve and the supra shielding. Will it represent also any benefits joining in this loop each individual pair wrapping? possibly not as conductivity may not be good

[luisma]

10 hours ago, Johnseye said:

Looking for some opinions on putting EMI shielding adhesive on an OCXO clock.  I have placed the 3M shielding on clocks that don't have an oven but am wondering if the adhesive would raise the temp inside the oven if stuck to the outside.  The shielding is supposed to convert EMI/RF to heat.

Hello, do we know which EMI are we trying or interested on blocking ? maybe someone can provide details on which range of frequencies we don't want induced on these cables? in this case I will think  10 MHZ? I have used this tape before and I was amazed to see how no blocking at all it provides for 812 MHZ,, maybe works better at 10 MHZ

[luisma]

Just purchased the exact copper foil at Amazon and will try to measure RFI with the spectrum analyzer for my equipment, will share videos if possible with this forum ...

[luisma]

Thank you for the info, I will try to do some testing, the attenuation sweet spot around 2 ghz, will do some research as of which EMI will be desirable to block, in the case of the clock I think 10 MHZ will be ideal and for that specific frequency the chart provided does block anything. Now I am not an expert or an EE, for sending the 10 mhz  clock signal is that the actual signal frequency or is it modulated along a higher frequency? if anyone can provide clarification on this?

[luisma]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

Bricki, you are welcome! Your picture and written response suggest you've done it correctly. The SQ impact is quite surprising huh?

 

For others, the trick is to avoid electrical contact with any connectors at the endpoints where the tinned copper layers are connected.

 

The simple, passive nature of Jssg 360 and it's outsized contribution to SQ makes it the weirdest tweak ever. Even stranger, it works with any type of cable: USB, network and DC.  Thanks again to John Swenson for the idea.

Thank you so much for the pictures

 

Bear with me I just want to get it right. So the cable in question is:

1. The standard, cable  looped good old JSSG we all know

2. With an outside braided tin copper sleeve which doesn't make contact with anything except the insulation material of the outside of the cable and it is not connected, NOR LOOPED to another braided second tin copper sleeve isolated from the 1st one.

 

So just a shielded cable with a tin copper sleeve NOT CONNECTED TO ANYTHING

 

 

 

[luisma]

3 minutes ago, Bricki said:

No worries 

 

It's 2 layers of braided tinned copper that make contact at each end and in between the two layers is some form of insulation - I used heat shrink. 

 

Just to be clear, the cable is not modified but rather just wrapped up in the "JSSG 360 sleeve"

Perfect thank you

 

[luisma]

been following this post for months, it gets crazier by the minute ... 

[luisma]

Funny thing, if anyone follows the HQPlayer thread the last few topics are about shielding, galvanic isolation and such ... I found myself dreaming of cables, tin copper shielding and soldering tools ... crazier by the minute

[luisma]

I'm in the process of replacing power cables. Need a power cable for

• Terminator DAC
• Yamaha AS2100 Amp
• Powersound Audio S3600 sub

 

My plan is to match these power cords to the equipment.

 

Terminator DAC

Harmonic Technology Fantasy III AC-10 Power Cable https://audiosensibility.com/blog/store-backup/#!/Harmonic-Technology-Fantasy-III-AC-10-Power-Cable/p/91357532

Yamaha AS2100 Amp

Signalcable Magic Power Digital Reference

http://signalcable.com/digitalpowerHC.html

 

Powersound Audio S3600 sub

Oyaide Tunami GPX Power Cable; 1.8m AC Cord

 

Using the best cable for the DAC and the thicker shielded Oyaide for low frequency equipment.

 

Was wondering if you guys have a different opinion on matching.

 

Thanks

 

[luisma]

4 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Update on this.

 

Since my initial foray was successful, I then went ahead and JSSG 360'd a couple more cables - a 1m Lush that connects my SE to the tX-USBultra, and my Audio Sensibility UPOCC Silver DC cable, that connects LPS-1.2 to TLS switch.

 

I'm hesitant to report listening results, as the methodology is challenging, since I can't A/B with the original. When I reported on the JSSG 360 Lush, I had the advantage of having a second unmodified one to A/B with. In the case of the Pasternack clock cable, and the Audio Sensibility cable, I did not. The best I could do was listen to the unmodified cable (A), then modify it (which can take 15-30 mins), then listen again (B). Even though I trust my ears, I doubt my audio memory is good enough to make these comparisons meaningful. Suffice it to say that these JSSG 360'd cables are sounding very, very good.

 

You might be wondering... does the JSSG 360 clock cable rise to the level of the Habst or the SOtM BNC cables? Sadly... no. Those still sound better. My subjective sense is that JSSG 360 improved the SQ, and closed the gap somewhat, but just as I found with JSSG, there is more to cable SQ than shielding. What I really like about the JSSG 360 approach is that you can take a cable you already like, and then mod it easily for a possible further bump in SQ - like my experience with the Lush.

 

The next cable I want to JSSG 360 is my Paul Hynes DC3FSXLR silver cable. With the arrival of Eric's SR-7 imminent, I can compare my modded cable to one of Eric's unmodified ones.

 

I'll let you know once I do this experiment.

 

 

you tricked us, you said you are not a DIY type and just the methodology (I love the pencil stretching part) turned out to be outstanding.

Thanks for sharing ... 

[luisma]

11 hours ago, gsquared said:

. I don't think going from HQPlayer to Roon could cause such a decrease in bass, but it might be. For

There is excellent advise from the other members here but can you try HQP again? I run a similar system to yours and found that HQP vs Roon makes a difference. Also see if really the bass is lacking, maybe you are familiar with the effect but many times changing a single component even a cable will give you a different presentation of instruments giving you the impression of lacking something. 

On my system from what I remember the biggest difference in bass happened when I replaced the smps by an LPS1. 1. 

I just literally moved myself to a different house and haven't started my system yet but I suspect problems due to congested venomous mains 

Will see 

 

[luisma]

Thanks Alex for your feedback @Superdad and @Johnseye for bringing that subject forward, I was about to ask that question partly.

I am going from a Celeron HQP NAA via USB to a Denafrips Terminator DAC, before I was using a Project S2 with your LPS1.2 Alex, superb performance, the actual use of your LPS1.2 made me a more objective person in these subjects.

Now I am using the JS2 to power my 2 NUCs (1 NUC running Linux own install with HQPE+Roon and the other NUC running NAA HQP)

anyways, I think that possibly I could enhance the SQ of my NAA --> DAC connection going the spaghetti way (which I have been trying to stay away from, didn't wanted to open that Pandora's box due to my obsessive behavior)

There are many different alternatives here and combinations. 

1. Replace the NAA by a different NAA which could allow for enhance USB circuitry for example a mini ITX computer board with tweakable BIOS settings to minimize EMI and maybe an addon USB card like these femto usb cards, Kitsune audio have one https://kitsunehifi.com/product/femto-jcat-usb-card/ or Sotm tx-USBexp https://www.sotm-audio.com/sotmwp/english/portfolio-item/tx-usbexp/. Also the NAA could be replaced by an Ultrarendu etc. but I like to tweak my Linux installs and have my own packages installed etc. Sometimes I use the NAA as Roon Bridge sometimes as HQP NAA etc.

2. Keep the NAA and add a USB decrappifier (ISORegen, tcUSBultra) with Lush^2 included and JSSG360 cable etc. full spaghetti

3. Keep the NAA but avoid USB like the plague and change the approach and go I2S (with a Singxer or Matrix https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/digital-interfaces/matrix-x-spdif-2-usb-interface-xmos-u208-32bit-768khz-coaxial-aesebu-i2s-hdmi-lvds-p-11975.html) units. 

4. Also I can use clocks feeding these devices in the chain etc.

5. I even consider looking into custom replacing the Crystek clocks that comes stock with the Terminator by a Neutron Star clock, some guy in Russia did it (I hope Alvin @alvin1118 not looking in this forum  but that will most likely void the warranty on the DAC and I would be on my own which I don't want.

 

Summarizing pretty much everything discussed in the 500 something pages of this thread.

 

Of course money is an issue so my budget is very limited and whatever I choose to do I would like to have something which I don't need to discard down the road if I get something else.

 

Any comments based on experience are appreciated, I'm dealing with SQ issues now, I moved from a quiet neighborhood house fed by a hospital substation less than 300 mts away to a townhome community with dirty mains, I hear buzzing all over the place, I purchased a Furman cheap line conditioner but it has good reviews and without wanting to trash their name made things worse than no conditioning at all. My system sounds like crap now and I have to go back to what it was and establish a baseline.

 

Thank you all

 

 

 

 

[luisma]

Reading my post again I realize that of course I can try everything I have mentioned before and still get cumulative improvements (or detriments) it is hard to determine what will provide the more impact, so any path is valid. 

 

What I will be most likely doing is something new, experimenting with a new board capable of handling USB spec 3.1 (thank you Alex) with bios options tweakable for this effect. In this way at least I can contribute with something new to the forum.

 

I will not do I2S yet as that is very specific to a few DACs Since going I2S will be more specific to a few and the majority is using USB. Additionally to this I will be tieing myself to a specific vendor combo which I am trying to avoid 

 

Software wise will be most likely running @Miskas bootable NAA realtime image and also AL ramroot for comparison purposes. 

 

 

[luisma]

Thanks Larry for the update

 

[luisma]

23 minutes ago, lmitche said:

 

Having entirely converted from WIndows/AO last August to Audiolinix, I feel like a great burden has been lifted from my shoulders.

 

I now have one (power) button operation with no need to kill processes after each reboot to gain the best SQ. Everything is configured the way I want, without any fear of Windows update changing my configuration. I no longer need to fight Windows and AO DRM when changing configurations, where at random times I may need to send $ to keep things going. Support from some anonymous Windows guy in India was awful. I should say AudioPhil does a great job supporting AO customers.

 

With Audiolinux and ramboot, SQ is the best I have ever heard from an Intel machine. No DRM, one button operation, great personalized support from Piero, and updates I can control, all combine to a terrific experience. If someone can't get AL to sound the same or better then Windows, they are either not trying hard enough, or need to reach out for help to ensure things are configured properly.

 

As a reformed smoker, I feel for people that still smoke and know how hard it is to quit. While no where near as serious, I feel the same for people still using Windows for audio playback. Windows will  always have a place on my desktop for office automation. Otherwise it is a square peg in a round hole when used for audio playback.

I share your same opinion Larry but without disregarding someone else's opinions there may be an SQ difference based on the DAC chipsets perhaps? Which Dacs are you guys using @kelvinwsyand @Metnoc

 

[luisma]

On 1/26/2019 at 3:50 PM, austinpop said:

 

Wow this is news to me (Fixed vs. Device) - I have always used Fixed up to this point. So when you use Device, do you set the volume to 100%?

 

And am I reading right - @auricgoldfinger - there is a further gain by not only using Device volume, but by turning on DSP? I assume this means turning DSP on, but not actually engaging any of the DSP features (headroom management, sample rate conversion, and filters)? BTW - I just looked at DSP in Roon 1.6, and I don't even see the global flag to turn DSP on or off.

 

Something to try, but please be specific what I need to do. To be clear, assume the DAC does not have a software volume control.

I switched from fixed volume to device volume when HQPE implemented this a few versions ago (2 - months already), I changed my rig and my pre amp doesn't have a remote (Atma MP-3) since I also changed my rig from SS to tube I can't really comment on any improvements. I will try to do a comparison tonight on fixed vs variable.

 

Just note I don't consider this to be Roon's DSP but HQPE since it is my understanding Roon just passes the controls upstream (or downstream?) to HQPE and there the magic happens.

 

I was afraid of degradation in audio (as we all know from DSP volume settings), Miska confirmed this was not affected at all since we are upsampling already. 

 

DAC has no volume control, Dena Terminator, NOS mode always.

 

It will be interesting to test with no upsampling option (Roon or HQPE) and see the results

 

[luisma]

Don't know if you guys have read this article

https://twitteringmachines.com/everything-matters-a-tale-of-two-cables/

 

Written by @Michael Lavorgna

 

Good article, instructive etc.Here in this thread we all know that bits are not bits for audio, we all know the advantages of clean power etc. but something in the article brought my attention and I am resorting to this community for your opinions.

Michael states

"I can “see” one other WiFi network from my listening room. If you can see more than say, 30, I would suggest we have different environments when it comes to noise that may infect our mixed signal systems."

 

He is very on target using the word "may", he is not conclusive and I personally feel the same way.

 

Now I am a Mechanical Engineer, also do software, networks, computer related stuff, for some time already 38 years already, I also do RF assessments and designs and installs on high-rise buildings. I am not an electrical engineer like many of you in this thread, I know what a resistor, transistor, inductance etc is but I am not an expert in electrical circuits.

 

JS work is well known and great, we are dealing with two things here and if I am mistaken please comment.

 

We have EMI which is generated by the way electrical circuits work, electric fields generating interference, magnetic fields and radio waves of short magnitude (or is it?) through our equipment. We discovered that with good design circuits, good shielding etc we can minimize its effects, LPS power, JSSG, JSST etc. all goody here

 

Now (and I hope Rajiv @austinpop) and not off topic in any way, the effects of RFI, external RFI from our wireless, cordless, radio station next door, fire department, police etc. is not well understood yet. We think this "may" affect our digital music (maybe even analog) reproduction but we really have not actual experiment. Wifi, I install these for a living, not the Netgears, Linksys and home wifis etc. but the ones used at the airports and public places, Ruckus, Aerohive, Meraki etc. these usually transmit intensively in 2.4 and 5 GHZ as we all know. So some questions arise.

 

What effect will induce these in cables? 

Will the high frequency (relatively high) will detriment (or enhance) the music transport in our speaker wires, USB cables etc? 

Can we block these? (as a matter of fact we can but it is extremely hard, forget about aluminum foil, copper foil etc. I have tested this and the effects are minimal, and frequency dependent)

 

Like I said I have not experimented myself and I'm planning to do so, for work I purchased a Spectrum Analyzer from Keysight which I have been using for the last 4 years, I can measure RFI and I can even generate 30 dbm signals from the equipment in different frequencies.

 

If someone has already tested these your comments are welcome, I believe this is the correct thread however if we want to keep the 500 pages just for EMI mainly we can start another External RFI effects thread.

 

Thank you all

 

Luis

 

 

 

[luisma]

Just a disclosure, I'm not a dealer nor an audio industry professional trying to sell a product here. I may use any discoveries from my own experimentation or public experimentation in the future to incursion in this industry but so far I have not defined product or plan and I may never get into this commercially speaking

 

 

[luisma]

On 1/26/2019 at 1:51 PM, lmitche said:

Hi Luisma,

 

No disregard was intended. There are many factors that can contribute to differences in SQ and you are right, the DAC is potentially one of those. Computing hardware makes a huge difference as well, as does cabling, power supplies, player software, drivers . . . so without knowing much more it is tough to know what is going on.

 

Likewise properly tuning Audiolinux can make a huge difference in SQ.

 

My post was just to add another view acknowledging factors besides SQ as a major difference between these two OS choices.

 

FWIW, I started my CA travels five years ago running Audiolinux on an Asrock J1900 mini-ITX machine. I later found that Windows/AO sounded better on that machine and converted to Windows. Later hardware upgrades to a 6700k processor and a z170,  and later a z270 motherboard and Hqplayer upsampling to Dsd512 followed. I spent hours fighting Windows/AO DRM throughout these upgrades.

 

Converting that machine to a server running Audiolinux headless and Roonserver, connected to an I7 NUC running Audiolinux headless has been transformational on many levels.

Sorry Larry, wrong use of words, I did not meant disregard but more "taking in consideration"? English is not my native language, 

 

I agree Linux makes things easier by far compared to Windows, I am running Ubuntu and AL myself and testing.

 

The reason I was asking for the models of the DACs is usually the DAC comes with a driver and the OS implements their own accessing mechanisms to the USB ports

 

By the way we are assuming mostly USB usage but I think some are using I2S etc.

 

And I am genuinely puzzled by the comments that Windows sounds better, maybe the USB driver implementation, all these high end (geez these guys have very nice DACs @Metnoc and @kelvinwsy) DACs they do reclocking with internal buffers so I would think the OS is not that critical but it could be. Then we have which USB port is used 3.0 ? 3.1? 2.0? cables used? extra software that may be interfering (I personally discover that adding alsa utils etc. improved my communications in Linux)

 

So only testing we can determine. 

[luisma]

19 hours ago, tboooe said:

Is anyone using Server 2012 R2 or Server 2016 with NUC7PJYH?  I am thinking of getting one to use as my NAA but was worried about the NIC driver compatibility.  Last year I bought a NUC7i3BEH but had to return it because I could get the NIC drivers to work on Server 2102 R2.  From the Intel support site, it only shows Windows 10 support for the NIC but after some digging around it seems the NUC7PJYH uses a Realtek RTL8111 NIC.  According to this site  there is a driver for Server 2012 but not sure if the Windows 10 driver will work with Server 2016.  Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

I read somewhere here people are using already server 2019 and if I recall correctly they are seeing improvements, my plan is to have 3 naa's for comparison simultaneously. 

 

Allo USB Bridge naa 

Celeron fanless nuc stripped down from ssd etc running audio Linux ramroot 

Core i3 fanless nuc running server core 2019 

 

As stated before I believe the simplicity and headless convenience of Linux in general is awesome but want to hear by myself the difference that windows does, aka better decay and imaging based on other users experience 

 

I'm getting new speakers soon so I need to hurry before this arrived 

 

I will post when can compare the different naa's 

 

[luisma]

8 minutes ago, tboooe said:

I did a similar experiment earlier this year.  I compared the Allo against a Rasperberry Pi 3 and an i3 based fanless PC (running both Server 2012 R2 and Audiolinux).  In the end, the preferred the Server 2012 R2 based NAA because the music sounded fuller to me.  This is similar to my experience running HQP on Ubuntu versus Server 2012 R2.

Wait, running HQP you mean the server not the naa sounds better in windows than Linux?