$10,000/ft Cable burn-in ! Wasted $500 a watt on an amp! Why the war?

[Teresa]

...I suggest you do careful testing on anything you buy and return anything that does not distinguish itself.

 

I do. I don't buy anything unless I get a 30-day money-back satisfaction guarantee. I have returned more products and accessories than I have purchased. Everything has to prove its worth in my audio/video system or it goes back. I don't trust manufacturer names, reviewers, salespeople, etc. Just if it makes my music sound better or sound worse.

[STC]

With due respect to other members' opinions, why audiophiles are insisting that they can hear what scientists couldn't measure? We are in 2017, scientists can capture the sound of a single atom, they can hear a bacteria crawling and yet they still couldn't measure the unknown that audiophiles could hear? That sounds bit far fetched to me.

[r_w]

It might sound far fetched but nobody on here to date can answer this:

 

What's the formula for calculating/measuring; instrument placement, soundstage height, width, depth (three dimensionality) and 'space between the instruments'?

 

I ask this because I want to know the answer... not to be a smart ass.

 

 

With due respect to other members' opinions, why audiophiles are insisting that they can hear what scientists couldn't measure? We are in 2017, scientists can capture the sound of a single atom, they can hear a bacteria crawling and yet they still couldn't measure the unknown that audiophiles could hear? That sounds bit far fetched to me.

[Jud]

It might sound far fetched but nobody on here to date can answer this:

 

What's the formula for calculating/measuring; instrument placement, soundstage height, width, depth (three dimensionality) and 'space between the instruments'?

 

I ask this because I want to know the answer... not to be a smart ass.

 

I don't know it, but all you have to do is listen to the Roger Waters recordings with Q Sound to understand it's been worked out to the cm. This is *not* a mystery. Heck, going from an intimate to a big soundstage is a stylistic convention on many pop songs (including a favorite of mine from the past year, "Your Best American Girl" by Mitski).

 

 

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[STC]

It might sound far fetched but nobody on here to date can answer this:

 

What's the formula for calculating/measuring; instrument placement, soundstage height, width, depth (three dimensionality) and 'space between the instruments'?

 

I ask this because I want to know the answer... not to be a smart ass.

 

Just two days ago I asked the same question. I have a SACD with a diagram of the instruments placements and distance but that wasn't useful to me because I do not know how loud the instruments were recorded. My room is much smaller than the recording venue. The microphones were placed near the instruments and the recording engineer recreated the soundstage. He obviously used his ears. His ears condition was stated. If the recording engineers ears were not properly matched than whatever soundstage he created would not be precise.

So I decided to make my own recording in my room. Placed a X/Y microphone at my sitting location and walked around the room from left to right while jingling few marbles in a can.

 

Results:-

 

1) in stereo, the left and right width depends on my speakers spread.

 

2) with cross talk cancellation and speakers just about 1 foot apart, it extended beyond the speakers and almost similar width to the original sound location. However, when I asked other members opinion they differed until I make different set adjustment for each of them.

 

Conclusion:-

 

No two persons hear alike. Ok...this is not exactly a scientific proof.

 

Even if you have some kind of software to measure (actually I have seen it before) you may not agree with them because your ears may not be perfect. In fact, almost every organ of us got a dominant side and it is quite possible that our ears do too. So what measurement is there good enough to measure the stereo illusion which is created by your brain?

[r_w]

The main problem with this is it's these very traits (instrument placement, soundstage height, width, depth, three dimensionality and 'space between the instruments') that most audiophiles would say separate 'truly great gear' (the absolute best) from the good... meaning that truly great gear might only be judged by illusion created in your brain?, that would mean that measurements are not relevant in discerning the very best equipment.

 

The problem with this conundrum is that both sides of the 'argument' (I'm not making one by the way) want to have their cake.

 

I guess all I'm saying is, until a reliable method of measuring these traits is known, 'if you can't measure it, you can't hear it', fails by this philosophy.

 

... all I know is that it's possible to dramatically improve a system by optimising its operating environment, but I can't prove the results of doing so (the traits above) with any meaningful measurements, so to some I might either be deluded or my brain is just inventing the improvements.

 

... you can see the problem...

 

;-)

 

 

No two persons hear alike. Ok...this is not exactly a scientific proof.

 

Even if you have some kind of software to measure (actually I have seen it before) you may not agree with them because your ears may not be perfect. In fact, almost every organ of us got a dominant side and it is quite possible that our ears do too. So what measurement is there good enough to measure the stereo illusion which is created by your brain?

[mansr]

With due respect to other members' opinions, why audiophiles are insisting that they can hear what scientists couldn't measure? We are in 2017, scientists can capture the sound of a single atom, they can hear a bacteria crawling and yet they still couldn't measure the unknown that audiophiles could hear? That sounds bit far fetched to me.

 

We still can't accurately measure wishful thinking.

[STC]

.....but I can't prove the results of doing so (the traits above) with any meaningful measurements, so to some I might either be deluded or my brain is just inventing the improvements.

 

... you can see the problem...

 

;-)

 

Who said you can't prove? If it's there it's there. If you perceive cable A gives you a better soundstage than it must be so. Just prove it to yourself like everything else in life.

 

Few days ago, a video of a girl who could tell the serial number of currency notes blindfolded was circulating. Until scientist disprove her feat, I have to accept of her extraordinary powers. But if she were to post in forums about her extraordinary ability without any supporting evidence or refuse to participate in a public demo, shouldn't I be skeptical?

 

 

 

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[r_w]

Yes, extremely so.

 

;-)

 

 

 

Few days ago, a video of a girl who could tell the serial number of currency notes blindfolded was circulating. Until scientist disprove her feat, I have to accept of her extraordinary powers. But if she were to post in forums about her extraordinary ability without any supporting evidence or refuse to participate in a public demo, shouldn't I be skeptical?

 

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[r_w]

I know what you mean... but it's not the same as knowing, accurately repeating and sharing for the purpose of (all our) advancement.

 

;-)

 

 

Who said you can't prove? If it's there it's there. If you perceive cable A gives you a better soundstage than it must be so. Just prove it to yourself like everything else in life.

 

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[STC]

I know what you mean... but it's not the same as knowing, accurately repeating and sharing for the purpose of (all our) advancement.

 

;-)

 

Need not be so complicated. Invite over your esteemed golden eared audiophiles to your place or visit their place. I am sure one them will be the authoritative figure when it comes to soundstage and imaging.

 

Go to the back of the speakers, drop a coin and ask him to point the exact location where the coin is. Do the same with your other friends. Preferably, 10 times for each of them.

 

You will realize their golden ears are no better than yours.

 

 

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[Jud]

We still can't accurately measure wishful thinking.

 

Just look at debt load (stuff you're paying off over time).

[mansr]

Just look at debt load (stuff you're paying off over time).

 

Personally, that's nothing whatsoever. I'm obviously indirectly paying off various debts.

[Solid-State]

the same show as always,,,,,,,,

 

X says, I have the right of you are wrong.

Y says, no, I have the right of you are wrong

Z says you are all wrong, it's I who know best and what you say is not true,,,,,,,,

[Speedskater]

When a classical music recording company does a recording in a concert hall they can use upwards of ½ mile of microphone and interconnect cables. Very often when equipment is listed on an album, special financial arrangements have been made.

[witchdoctor]

With due respect to other members' opinions, why audiophiles are insisting that they can hear what scientists couldn't measure? We are in 2017, scientists can capture the sound of a single atom, they can hear a bacteria crawling and yet they still couldn't measure the unknown that audiophiles could hear? That sounds bit far fetched to me.

 

Because their is no instrument that is equivalent to two ears and a brain

[witchdoctor]

Just two days ago I asked the same question. I have a SACD with a diagram of the instruments placements and distance but that wasn't useful to me because I do not know how loud the instruments were recorded. My room is much smaller than the recording venue. The microphones were placed near the instruments and the recording engineer recreated the soundstage. He obviously used his ears. His ears condition was stated. If the recording engineers ears were not properly matched than whatever soundstage he created would not be precise.

So I decided to make my own recording in my room. Placed a X/Y microphone at my sitting location and walked around the room from left to right while jingling few marbles in a can.

 

Results:-

 

1) in stereo, the left and right width depends on my speakers spread.

 

2) with cross talk cancellation and speakers just about 1 foot apart, it extended beyond the speakers and almost similar width to the original sound location. However, when I asked other members opinion they differed until I make different set adjustment for each of them.

 

Conclusion:-

 

No two persons hear alike. Ok...this is not exactly a scientific proof.

 

Even if you have some kind of software to measure (actually I have seen it before) you may not agree with them because your ears may not be perfect. In fact, almost every organ of us got a dominant side and it is quite possible that our ears do too. So what measurement is there good enough to measure the stereo illusion which is created by your brain?

 

Your conclusion is wrong. Harman conducts extensive blind listening tests using people who are trained listeners. I think you are hopelessly drowning in data that is wrong, old, or just doesn't matter.

I suggest giving up on cables altogether and just enjoy your music on whatever it is you listen to. This discussion seems beyond your interest or capacity to understand.

[STC]

Your conclusion is wrong. Harman conducts extensive blind listening tests using people who are trained listeners. I think you are hopelessly drowning in data that is wrong, old, or just doesn't matter.

I suggest giving up on cables altogether and just enjoy your music on whatever it is you listen to. This discussion seems beyond your interest or capacity to understand.

 

I am aware of Harman"s extensive blind testing. Were you certified by them?

 

 

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[witchdoctor]

I am aware of Harman"s extensive blind testing. Were you certified by them?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Harman How to Listen

 

After you take the course load the same album into a playlist, one HIFI the other Masters in tidal. See how many times in a row you can guess the MQA track.

[STC]

Harman How to Listen

 

After you take the course load the same album into a playlist, one HIFI the other Masters in tidal. See how many times in a row you can guess the MQA track.

 

Did you just discover this? Did you read about MQA spectrogram somewhere in this forum? I was expecting people with golden ears who could distinguish sound of two well made cables to distinguish MQA without the Harman course.

 

 

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[witchdoctor]

Did you just discover this? Did you read about MQA spectrogram somewhere in this forum? I was expecting people with golden ears who could distinguish sound of two well made cables to distinguish MQA without the Harman course.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I posted this for your benefit, good luck and enjoy whatever it is that makes you happy.

[gzubeck]

Started out with parts express 1 meter rca cables for $1.36 LR channel. I went to a parts express $6 audtek rca cables and did notice a slight improvement in clarity. At this point I think I will have to spend 20 times more to get even a small improvement over these rca cables. Maybe due to better welding connections, higher purity metals, better rca connectors etc. The point is the laws of diminishing returns kicks in fairly quickly and the snake oil profiteering grows exponentially as the prices increase. Cost benefit needs to come in somewhere...

[witchdoctor]

Started out with parts express 1 meter rca cables for $1.36 LR channel. I went to a parts express $6 audtek rca cables and did notice a slight improvement in clarity. At this point I think I will have to spend 20 times more to get even a small improvement over these rca cables. Maybe due to better welding connections, higher purity metals, better rca connectors etc. The point is the laws of diminishing returns kicks in fairly quickly and the snake oil profiteering grows exponentially as the prices increase. Cost benefit needs to come in somewhere...

 

Great advice from the guy who uses $6 cables. Here is one that won't break the bank

 

http://signalcable.com/analog_interconnects.html

 

If you are not astounded and amazed send it back for a refund

[Ralf11]

The sound, dummy!

 

You are the dummy if you think the perception is not affected by expectation bias.

 

Theresa your 'methodology' in post 245 is completely inadequate. That is why I asked you. It is fine with me if you want to be a placebophile. Just don't try to sway the unwary consumer with it.

 

long-term listening has some benefits and some detriments (cue Jud) - I use it (along with A/B testing) and it is not incompatible with a valid listening test - I might argue it is part of a valid test.

[Ralf11]

It might sound far fetched but nobody on here to date can answer this:

 

What's the formula for calculating/measuring; instrument placement, soundstage height, width, depth (three dimensionality) and 'space between the instruments'?

 

I ask this because I want to know the answer... not to be a smart ass.

 

I hope you realize that STC's point is independent of yours. Measurement at a mechanistic level differs from statistical analysis of a listening test (indeed it may be irrelevant except to engineers who want to build better equipment)