Discussion of AC mains isolation transformers

[JohnSwenson]

Greg Osborne (Osborne Loudspeakers) sells this: Untitled Document

 

8 international outlets, shielded box, no filtering/conditioning circuitry, IEC inlet so I can use my shielded power cable.

That might be the only option I'm left with but I'm in no rush - still looking around.

 

Quick question, how does a Schuko plug get a ground connection with that type of outlet?

 

John S.

[asdf1000]

Quick question, how does a Schuko plug get a ground connection with that type of outlet?

 

John S.

Hi John, they also make it with this outlet (second picture): http://www.opera-consonance.com/products/pw-3.htm

 

Does that answer the question? I'm happy to email Opera Audio if it doesn't.

 

Cheers

 

 

Sent from my Blackberry DTEK50 using Tapatalk

[One and a half]

Quick question, how does a Schuko plug get a ground connection with that type of outlet?

 

John S.

 

The Schuko earth connection would be very difficult to obtain.

[mikicasellas]

The fourth one down in your list is the only one with outlets and a cord so it is probably the one to go with. The picture does not show if there is a plug on the cord, you may have to add one yourself (very easy to do). I assume you are in the US so you use 120V? This one is 120 in 120 out which is what you most likely want for a room in the US.

 

John S.

 

 

Hello John,

 

My LPS-1 just arrived, does it need time to break in in order to achieve its best or is it good right out of the box?

 

I think i found a possible TOPAZ choice that the seller told me that i need to put the receptacles, is that too difficult if me electrician is in charge to put them, actually if it is not too complicated i am thinking to use one of my double Oyaide wall outlets, what do you consider?

 

This one is 1kva and is .0005 of capacitance for only 194 usd and seems to be in great shape, please take a look:

 

Two things that scares me:

 

1.- that it could be very difficult to assemble those receptacles

2.- what about those two cables, what are they for, should not be only one that plug on the wall?

 

 

Topaz Model: 91001-31 Ultra-Isolator Line Noise Suppressor. Good Used Stock | eBay

 

Regards

 

Miki

[JohnSwenson]

Hello John,

 

My LPS-1 just arrived, does it need time to break in in order to achieve its best or is it good right out of the box?

 

I think i found a possible TOPAZ choice that the seller told me that i need to put the receptacles, is that too difficult if me electrician is in charge to put them, actually if it is not too complicated i am thinking to use one of my double Oyaide wall outlets, what do you consider?

 

This one is 1kva and is .0005 of capacitance for only 194 usd and seems to be in great shape, please take a look:

 

Two things that scares me:

 

1.- that it could be very difficult to assemble those receptacles

2.- what about those two cables, what are they for, should not be only one that plug on the wall?

 

 

Topaz Model: 91001-31 Ultra-Isolator Line Noise Suppressor. Good Used Stock | eBay

 

Regards

 

Miki

 

This one is a "hardwire" version, which just contains standard "knockouts" for connecting conduits etc. BUT someone has put a flexible "powercord" into each side (input and output). So for the input you need to add a plug, easy to do. For the output its a little more complicated. The simplest way is to add a metal box (surface mount electrical box) with the appropriate outlet plate for your Oyaide outlet. You will need some form of standard cord "strain relief" that fits the hole on the box. (standard electrical stuff you should be able to get at any hardware store)

 

The issue is if that is going to be legal in the area where you live. In some places it might be fine, in others they might require flexible conduit between the transformer and the box. If it is required you put a short length of flexible conduit between transformer and box and run the existing cord through the conduit.

 

Your electrician should be able to help you with that.

 

John S.

[sockpit]

John S. Please check your PM about a public safety question surrounding Topaz and similar isolation transformers raised in this thread around post #251 ff. Thanks.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

[asdf1000]

So I was in communication with Sandy at VT4C. I offered to send Australian outlets to him but he said he could only assist for a large order, not a single unit - which is fair enough.

 

So I ended up getting the Opera Audio PW-3 from Osborne Loudspeakers locally - see attached photo. It's a shielded box with a circuit breaker and nothing else but wires between outlets. It's even stated in the production description to have no filtering or conditioning circuitry at all.

 

Replacing my PS Audio Dectet with the Elgar + basic powerstrip almost made as much a difference as adding the microRendu to my system. And that's with a $10 7.5Vdc plugpack powering the microRendu (the alkaline battery pack I was temporarily using didn't have much juice so I gave up on that idea) ! My LPS-1 ships this week. After briefly hearing the difference a battery pack makes to the microRendu, I'm prepared to be blown away when I replace the 7.5Vdc SMPS plugpack with the LPS-1.

 

Then I'll have the complete suite of inter-related products: sonicTransporter i5 with internal SSD + microRendu + LPS-1 + Sonore DC4 cable + JS's superb recommendation of an ultra high isolation transformer + basic powerstrip

 

The quality of these computer / digital audio products really rivals some much more super expensive gear I've heard.

 

I've been on a bit of a hi-res streaming journey the past 6 months with some major changes in direction but I'm super happy with where I am now (once the LPS-1 arrives next week).

 

 

Sent from my Blackberry DTEK50 using Tapatalk

 

[Cornan]

Here is a reply from Airlink support regarding balanced power supply. I asked about this perticular product Standard Balanced Power Supplies: BPS1502: 1500VA 230v to 230v CTE Two schuko sockets

 

Hi Micael

Thank you for your enquiry.

One of the advantages of a balanced supply is that it divides the mains voltage by two on each mains leg relative to ground making it intrinsically safer. If a power to ground fault were to occur in the attached equipment the associated isolator would still trip.

Having said the above, there is no reason why you couldn’t connect the RCD into the power circuit if it adds to your peace of mind. It should have inconsequential effect on the performance of the BPS.

Best Regards

 

I hope that helps anyone else!

[Daudio]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]30727[/ATTACH]

 

I really do NOT advise placing sensitive electronics, like your uRendu, so close to the electromagnetic field of such a large transformer, even if they have metal cases. Remember we are working with tiny subtleties in these high-end pursuits, even with the square-root law

 

If you need proof, get one of those field strength meters, and see what you have in that area.

 

I like to try to think in terms of electromagnetic and electrostatic fields - before, and alongside, such more popular things like Ohms law

[mikicasellas]

This one is a "hardwire" version, which just contains standard "knockouts" for connecting conduits etc. BUT someone has put a flexible "powercord" into each side (input and output). So for the input you need to add a plug, easy to do. For the output its a little more complicated. The simplest way is to add a metal box (surface mount electrical box) with the appropriate outlet plate for your Oyaide outlet. You will need some form of standard cord "strain relief" that fits the hole on the box. (standard electrical stuff you should be able to get at any hardware store)

 

The issue is if that is going to be legal in the area where you live. In some places it might be fine, in others they might require flexible conduit between the transformer and the box. If it is required you put a short length of flexible conduit between transformer and box and run the existing cord through the conduit.

 

Your electrician should be able to help you with that.

 

John S.

 

Thanks John,

 

I am attaching this image that i was thinking could be a more direct and less complicated approach:

 

The Topaz could be feeding all Three double wall outlets or maybe only one, i was wondering if in this connection setup the three wall outlets could be working as a strip, it is juts that they are in the wall.

 

Thanks and Best regards

 

By the way, does the LPS-1 need some time to break in?

 

Miki

[asdf1000]

I really do NOT advise placing sensitive electronics, like your uRendu, so close to the electromagnetic field of such a large transformer, even if they have metal cases. Remember we are working with tiny subtleties in these high-end pursuits, even with the square-root law

 

If you need proof, get one of those field strength meters, and see what you have in that area.

 

I like to try to think in terms of electromagnetic and electrostatic fields - before, and alongside, such more popular things like Ohms law

Great advice. I do have the length in power cable and the portable RCD lead to be able to move the Elgar away from my microRendu and DAC. I will try and get a basic measurement though, just for learning purposes. Thanks again for the advice.

 

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[asdf1000]

I quickly re-arranged the layout. By swapping out longer power cords with shorter, I was able to move the Elgar and it's best mate (portable RCD) a few meters away from my microRendu and integrated amp and DAC. Only had time for a quick listen but with a track I'm very familiar with, it was yet another improvement - and it didn't cost anything. Similar to the improvement to taking my WiFi router away from the same gear and out of the listening room. Thanks again @Daudio

 

 

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[Daudio]

I quickly re-arranged the layout. [ATTACH]30751[/ATTACH]

 

What about the electrostatic field emanating from the power strip, even through it may not be radiating electromagnetism from the empty sockets ? I don't know why you aren't placing the uRendu, and similar stuff, as far away from anything with high voltage AC in it. Such as transformers, power strips, power cords, wall warts, whatever. That was the point of talking about fields earlier.

 

I used to establish zones for different kinds of cabling, but now am going more towards point to point wiring to maximize separation in more complicated arrangements.

 

You are not done yet...

[asdf1000]

What about the electrostatic field emanating from the power strip, even through it may not be radiating electromagnetism from the empty sockets ? I don't know why you aren't placing the uRendu, and similar stuff, as far away from anything with high voltage AC in it. Such as transformers, power strips, power cords, wall warts, whatever. That was the point of talking about fields earlier.

 

I used to establish zones for different kinds of cabling, but now am going more towards point to point wiring to maximize separation in more complicated arrangements.

 

You are not done yet...

The power strip is fully shielded. I have to be reasonable in terms of budget and more importantly WAF! Moving the iso transformer away was easy, free and still remains out of sight. The powerstrip will have to stay as is, for now. May not be ideal but it's as good as practicably possible for the moment. When I move I will definitely note your recommendations though.

 

Great advice on moving the iso transformer away from the microrendu and DAC though. I hope it helps others the way it helped me

 

I need that LPS-1 ASAP (Alex!) lol

 

 

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[Daudio]

I have to be reasonable in terms of budget and more importantly WAF! ...The powerstrip will have to stay as is, for now. May not be ideal but it's as good as practicably possible for the moment.

[ATTACH]30751[/ATTACH]

 

You have lots of ways to get the uRendu away from AC, it just needs a little imagination...

 

Tie a string to the power/Ethernet side of the box and lift it vertical, attaching the other end to the back of your rack (right in pix). A small spring clamp on the back of a shelf is a quick and easy tie off point, and easily adjustable.

 

You could stick-able Velcro the Sonore box to the back of the rack for a cleaner looking mount.

 

I like those colorful Velcro strips used for 'cable management. You can stick a number of them into a loop and hang cables from them to keep them isolated. I used 3 in a loop, along with a spring clamp, to hang the rear end of my dual Regen setup for a two point suspension

 

There are dozens of different ways to solve this problem... within your budget, and with plenty of WAF

 

But, please get that very sensitive digital audio circuitry away from that horrible AC cord loop enveloping the power and input connectors - probably the weakest shielded area on the device !

[asdf1000]

You have lots of ways to get the uRendu away from AC, it just needs a little imagination...

 

Tie a string to the power/Ethernet side of the box and lift it vertical, attaching the other end to the back of your rack (right in pix). A small spring clamp on the back of a shelf is a quick and easy tie off point, and easily adjustable.

 

You could stick-able Velcro the Sonore box to the back of the rack for a cleaner looking mount.

 

I like those colorful Velcro strips used for 'cable management. You can stick a number of them into a loop and hang cables from them to keep them isolated. I used 3 in a loop, along with a spring clamp, to hang the rear end of my dual Regen setup for a two point suspension

 

There are dozens of different ways to solve this problem... within your budget, and with plenty of WAF

 

But, please get that very sensitive digital audio circuitry away from that horrible AC cord loop enveloping the power and input connectors - probably the weakest shielded area on the device !

All points carefully noted. The 0.2m Curious USB cable is quite stiff so that limits many options, with the furniture I currently have. But when I move I'll be able to move closer to the ideal, keeping all your fantastic points in mind.

 

I'll definitely tidy up the snake-pit around the microRendu though. Thanks again for reminding me it needed tidying ! One of those things I never got around to.

 

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[Daudio]

The 0.2m Curious USB cable is quite stiff so that limits many options...

 

My 200mm Curious 'Regen Link' is bent into a 'U' shape with no problem. It won't break, through it does prefer one plane to bend in.

 

 

 

Over and out...

[JohnSwenson]

John S. Please check your PM about a public safety question surrounding Topaz and similar isolation transformers raised in this thread around post #251 ff. Thanks.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

 

The basics go like this:

in normal house wiring a dangerous fault is when hot comes in contact with metal chasis, if part of you touches the chassis and some other part of you contacts some ground point, dangerous current can flow through you.

 

The first solution to this was the safety ground wire, when the hot in the device touches the chassis a large current flows through the ground wire, tripping the breaker in the panel. This works if there is a very good short which supports enough current to trip the breaker.

 

If the short is a weak one, you can still have current through you, but there will not be enough current through the breaker to trip it. Thus GFCI. It monitors the current through the two legs (hot and neutral), in normal operation the current is balanced, the same amount on each wire. The GFCI detects a situation where a small amount of current takes a "sneak path", from one of the wires, potentially through you, that goes to ground, thus the current on the hot and neutral are NOT the same. When this happens the GFCI shuts the circuit down.

 

So now lets look at how this works with an isolation transformer. The voltage on the secondary is not connected to the input wire at all, or the ground. They are separate. It's like a battery. You can touch either wire from the secondary (I'll call them Sa and Sb) to the safety ground, any other ground point, either original hot or neutral, a ground rod, ANYTHING, and nothing happens. (not quite strictly speaking true, with the low capacitance ones we are talking about a little bit of leakage current will flow, usually less than a micro amp). This is important, a direct short to ground causes nothing to happen. If you are part of that connection, again, nothing happens.

 

As to a GFCI, it works by detecting differences between current in the two wires going through it. Since connection to anything else will not cause a current to flow, the currents coming out of the secondary will ALWAYS be the same so a GFCI will NEVER trip, so it is completely useless in this system.

 

There is ONE case where you can get injurious current, it takes TWO opposite faults. You have two devices with metal chassis, which are NOT connected to a common safety ground. One has a short from Sa to chassis and the other has a short from Sb to different chassis, if you touch both chassis you will have line voltage between them. If they are connected to a common safety ground, large current will flow through that ground which might trip a breaker.

 

So overall quite safe, GFCIs do absolutely nothing, so you don't need one, period. If no sneak path can exist the current is always balanced so a GFCI will not ever trip, so it is not protecting against anything.

 

I hope that makes some sort of sense. This is a quick response without diagrams which I hope makes some sense.

 

If anyone wants to test this to make sure I'm not blowing wind here, try it with a low voltage transformer. Take say a 1A 120V:6.3V transformer, connect it to a three prong plug, primary wires to the hot and neutral, leave the safety ground unconnected. Tape up one of the secondary wires so you don't accidentally short it, and then measure the voltage between the other secondary wire and safety ground. (AC volts on the meter) You should have extremely close to zero, maybe a few microvolts if you have a really good meter. You can use AC Amps on the meter, again only microamps max. You can try this to a ground rod, anything else you choose and you will get the same results.

 

An isolation transformer is no different, just different voltage ratio, either secondary wire to safety ground or any other ground gives you nothing. You can't get shocked from nothing.

 

John S.

[Superdad]

Thanks for your post John.

 

Indeed a true isolation transformer is quite safe. In fact, before there were GFCIs, hotels used to have "shaver-only" outlets which contained--you guessed it, a small isolation transformer.

 

But it turns out that many (likely most) of the in-a-case with outlets units presently sold as "isolation transformers" in fact are not. Due to NEC (and probably EU) requirements--along with a desire for even greater common-mode noise attenuation--they are most all bonding one leg of the secondary to ground. This of course defeats the safety aspects of a "floating secondary" as John describes above.

 

Again, I am not talking about just running the input ground to the chassis and through to the third pin of the output outlets. I am saying that the TrippLites, the Eatons, and many others are connecting one side of the secondary to ground! That is why there are lots of videos by techs and old radio repair guys showing people how to "re-float" their TrippLite "isolation" trans units--since that is important for safety for those folks.

 

Of course the old stock industrial Topaz units are not doing this (though if I bought one prewired with cord and outlets I would check it).

 

And perhaps the "grounded neutral secondary" pseudo isolation units offered to the public these days would indeed benefit from a GFCI.

 

Here is a page from the current Eaton "Power Suppress" series (you can see the secondary being grounded), and all the TrippLite "Isolator Series" pages state "Secondary Neutral Bonding."

 

[asdf1000]

Thanks for your post John.

 

Indeed a true isolation transformer is quite safe. In fact, before there were GFCIs, hotels used to have "shaver-only" outlets which contained--you guessed it, a small isolation transformer.

 

But it turns out that many (likely most) of the in-a-case with outlets units presently sold as "isolation transformers" in fact are not. Due to NEC (and probably EU) requirements--along with a desire for even greater common-mode noise attenuation--they are most all bonding one leg of the secondary to ground. This of course defeats the safety aspects of a "floating secondary" as John describes above.

 

Again, I am not talking about just running the input ground to the chassis and through to the third pin of the output outlets. I am saying that the TrippLites, the Eatons, and many others are connecting one side of the secondary to ground! That is why there are lots of videos by techs and old radio repair guys showing people how to "re-float" their TrippLite "isolation" trans units--since that is important for safety for those folks.

 

Of course the old stock industrial Topaz units are not doing this (though if I bought one prewired with cord and outlets I would check it).

 

And perhaps the "grounded neutral secondary" pseudo isolation units offered to the public these days would indeed benefit from a GFCI.

 

Here is a page from the current Eaton "Power Suppress" series (you can see the secondary being grounded), and all the TrippLite "Isolator Series" pages state "Secondary Neutral Bonding."

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]30782[/ATTACH]

Thank you John and Alex. Incredibly informative for me and others I'm sure.

 

Quick question, does the earthing of the secondary to chassis do anything to sound quality, ie the leakage currents we are talking about in using these old Topaz units and the like, which have super low interwinding capacitance?

 

Or is this earthing to ground for the secondary only affecting the safety aspect? Which is still much more important of course, but I just wanted to understand if these are completely separate issues.

 

Thanks again

 

 

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[asdf1000]

I can't wait for this final piece of the puzzle to arrive. ETA Monday :-)

 

My Sonore DC4 cable arrived yesterday and is waiting more patiently than me :-)

 

 

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[sockpit]

Thanks for your post John.

 

Indeed a true isolation transformer is quite safe. In fact, before there were GFCIs, hotels used to have "shaver-only" outlets which contained--you guessed it, a small isolation transformer.

 

But it turns out that many (likely most) of the in-a-case with outlets units presently sold as "isolation transformers" in fact are not. Due to NEC (and probably EU) requirements--along with a desire for even greater common-mode noise attenuation--they are most all bonding one leg of the secondary to ground. This of course defeats the safety aspects of a "floating secondary" as John describes above.

 

Again, I am not talking about just running the input ground to the chassis and through to the third pin of the output outlets. I am saying that the TrippLites, the Eatons, and many others are connecting one side of the secondary to ground! That is why there are lots of videos by techs and old radio repair guys showing people how to "re-float" their TrippLite "isolation" trans units--since that is important for safety for those folks.

 

Of course the old stock industrial Topaz units are not doing this (though if I bought one prewired with cord and outlets I would check it).

 

And perhaps the "grounded neutral secondary" pseudo isolation units offered to the public these days would indeed benefit from a GFCI.

 

Here is a page from the current Eaton "Power Suppress" series (you can see the secondary being grounded), and all the TrippLite "Isolator Series" pages state "Secondary Neutral Bonding."

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]30782[/ATTACH]

 

@JohnSwenson and @Superdad: Thanks for all the great information about these isolation transformers. I've had mine now for two weeks, and can honestly say my system hasn't sounded better.

 

I want to pursue the Topaz safety question one step further and make it real concrete (with photos). I took time to open mine up today on both ends and found that the ground wire to both the input power cord and the output outlet are grounded to chassis. What does this tell you? Is this just an instance of the first part of Alex's paragraph above starting with "Again, I'm not talking about . . . ."? It appears to be.

 

I can add that the unit I bought appeared untampered and from the factory in terms of its wiring. I took the opportunity to swap out its 18 gauge power cord for a longer 14 gauge I had lying around so I could reach a dedicated outlet.

 

Here are the photo, and thanks for your time!

 

Input side (ground wire points downward, but it's anchored to chassis):

 

Output side:

[JohnSwenson]

@JohnSwenson and @Superdad: Thanks for all the great information about these isolation transformers. I've had mine now for two weeks, and can honestly say my system hasn't sounded better.

 

I want to pursue the Topaz safety question one step further and make it real concrete (with photos). I took time to open mine up today on both ends and found that the ground wire to both the input power cord and the output outlet are grounded to chassis. What does this tell you? Is this just an instance of the first part of Alex's paragraph above starting with "Again, I'm not talking about . . . ."? It appears to be.

 

I can add that the unit I bought appeared untampered and from the factory in terms of its wiring. I took the opportunity to swap out its 18 gauge power cord for a longer 14 gauge I had lying around so I could reach a dedicated outlet.

 

Here are the photo, and thanks for your time!

 

Input side (ground wire points downward, but it's anchored to chassis):[ATTACH=CONFIG]30868[/ATTACH]

 

Output side:[ATTACH=CONFIG]30869[/ATTACH]

 

This is a floating secondary, the safety ground does NOT connect to the secondary. The output safety ground is connected to the input safety ground. In addition the metal parts of transformer and the shield are connected to the safety ground.

 

This is the type of connection I was talking about in my post above, the secondary is NOT connected to safety ground. This does not need a GFCI on the output.

 

John S.

[jabbr]

Further regarding safety, for medical/hospital equipment, in which electrical leads are attached to people's bodies, these isolation transformers, with low leakage current, are used, in the configuration above.

 

This is *better* than GFCI -- my understanding is that GFCI trips in the 5mA range whereas the leakage current with such high quality transformers may be in the 10s of microA range i.e. roughly 2-3 orders of magnitude less.

 

E.g. : https://shop.plitron.com/specs/600VANA.pdf

[asdf1000]

The LPS-1 arrived.

 

So in a complete overhaul of my computer based audio system these past few months, I've closely followed all the advice from John S, Alex C, Jesus R and Andrew G @JohnSwenson , @Superdad , @vortecjr, @agillis

 

In summary, I previously had a QNAP NAS as my transport, running Roon Server as well as obviously storing all my music. Roon Server was playing direct via the USB audio out of the Qnap and into the USB input of my Peachtree 220se integrated. The NAS was connected to the network via a Netgear wireless bridge and all this gear was virtually side by side on my Hi-Fi furniture.

 

This setup worked well but then I started reading the various threads on this forum...

 

Without going into all the detail, the changes I then made to my system were based on the advice provided by the above mentioned people and included:

 

1. Getting rid of the wi-fi router and giving the NAS network access via power-line adapter

2. Adding a linear PSU to the NAS since it was critical in playback running Roon Server (made a great improvement).

3. Adding a microRendu to the system for USB audio input into my Peachtree (made a significant improvement)

4. Replacing Cat 5 ethernet cables with Blue Jeans Cat 6a

5. Moving the NAS out of the listening room (made a great improvement)

6. Replacing the NAS with a sonicTransporter i5 with built in SSD and again leaving it out of the listening room (great improvement)

7. Replacing my PS Audio Dectet power conditioner with a Elgar High Isolation Transformer (0.0005 pf inter-winding capacitance) and Opera Audio PW-3 (power strip in a shielded box with no filtering or conditioning circuitry) - made as big an improvement as adding the microRendu in my system

8. Replaced the cheap $10 SMPS plugback powering the microRendu with the LPS-1 and Sonore DC-4 cable, energised by the same 12Vdc Gieseler Audio low noise linear PSU that was previously powering my NAS running Roon Server (overkill for the LPS-1 but I had it already) - made a significant improvement

 

 

None of this was done in quite the nice and neat way they appear above so any opinion I have about which made the biggest improvement has to be taken with a grain of salt - even by myself ! :-)

 

But I think replacing the power conditioner board with the Elgar + power strip with no filtering made the biggest improvement, closely followed by adding the microRendu and LPS-1, followed by taking the Wi-Fi gear out of the listening room, followed by taking the NAS and sonicT out of the listening room.

 

I have to give the Roon lads a major shout out too because I'm only 2 months into using it but it's really the Core of my system now (pun intended).

 

This post could have been in another thread but I wanted to add it here because replacing the power conditioning board with the Elgar was the key upgrade (I think).

 

The Dac inside my integrated amp has never been fed such a high quality low noise signal before and consequently I've never heard my speakers sounding this good.

 

PS: regarding the attached photos, I still need to work out the best config for the microRendu and LPS-1 but for now I just wanted to minimise any cable bending as much as I can until I work something out with my furniture. I managed to move the powerstrip further away from the microRendu and my DAC too.