Ethernet vs usb

[Albrecht]

Thanks for your input.

Your set-up can indeed be considered an end game ethernet solution.

What would an end game usb solution entail?

 

A PSAudio LanRover or the ICRON isochronous Gigabit USB extender to an F-1 XMOS interface. (Maybe toss in a couple of Optical FMCs just to get really crazy with 9 boxes). :-)

 

I haven't seen anyone who's tried a Rednet AES67 + reclocker IF report that it ISN'T the best that they've tried.

 

Cheers,

[jon2020]

I am trying hard to avoid the hassle of network isolation.

[Albrecht]

I am trying hard to avoid the hassle of network isolation.

 

What about the hassle of USB isolation? I think that you'd find that people who've opted for a "network" solution find that there's far less hassle & better quality in a (isolated) network config than trying to mitigate all the problems with USB audio, - and isolating USB. In fact, as I implied, the BEST USB solution is one that gets the USB source very far away from the audio components, and indeed, "fixes" the problems with the inherently crappy USB bus. The improvements and successes of all of these USB isolation devices in the last year & 1/2 prove this to me.

 

Lastly, the AES67 audio protocol isn't a network isolation solution.

 

But hey, - to each his own.

 

Cheers,

[jon2020]

What about the hassle of USB isolation? I think that you'd find that people who've opted for a "network" solution find that there's far less hassle & better quality in a (isolated) network config than trying to mitigate all the problems with USB audio, - and isolating USB. In fact, as I implied, the BEST USB solution is one that gets the USB source very far away from the audio components, and indeed, "fixes" the problems with the inherently crappy USB bus. The improvements and successes of all of these USB isolation devices in the last year & 1/2 prove this to me.

 

Lastly, the AES67 audio protocol isn't a network isolation solution.

 

But hey, - to each his own.

 

Cheers,

 

I am afraid the AES67 audio protocol is not yet an option in my locality.

 

Let's wait for Astralark's report from the upcoming UK audio show on the Merging Nadac vs Chord Dave's usb solution.

[jon2020]

To summarise, the best listening experience so far (all theory aside) is :-

 

1. CA with the microrendu

2. ks03 with LanRover

3. Albrecht with AES67.

 

Btw, just reading the last pages of -

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/optical-network-configurations-24641/index44.html

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/network-isolation-4265/index30.html

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/focusrite-rednet-28878/index11.html

 

is sending chills down my spine.....

[Astralark]

I initially had PC > USB cable>AQJB> REGEN AMBER(powered by LPS)>Mutec MC3+ USB> AES cable > DAC.

 

I now have PC with Dante Virtual Sound Card(DVS) >CAT7 ethernet cable> TP-LINK MC200CM Gigabit Media Converter to optical fiber to TP-LINK MC200CM Gigabit Media Converter> CAT7 >Focusrite Rednet D16 > AES cable> Mutec MC3+ USB as re-sampler > AES cable > DAC with an Antelope LiveClock as wordclock for both the D16 and the Mutec.

 

Even without the Antelope the ethernet audio over IP(AOIP) setup was another world better in every area of SQ over the USB chain. More natural, involving, detailed with a darker background. It is not an inexpensive solution however but neither is an end game USB solution.

 

There are 5-6 solid boxes and several cables (more than 7) in your system. I have to recommend Mivera Audio Superstream and the Revenna pro interface connected with 2 fiber to Ethernet switch. Those are 3 boxes and 5 cables (only need a good quality Ethernet cable and power cable) and solve every problems.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[mourip]

There are 5-6 solid boxes and several cables (more than 7) in your system. I have to recommend Mivera Audio Superstream and the Revenna pro interface connected with 2 fiber to Ethernet switch. Those are 3 boxes and 5 cables (only need a good quality Ethernet cable and power cable) and solve every problems.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

 

If if my primary interest was a low equipment count then you would be right but I am mainly interested in sound quality at this point.

 

Have you had a chance to listen to the equipment you are mentioning?

[Astralark]

If if my primary interest was a low equipment count then you would be right but I am mainly interested in sound quality at this point.

 

Have you had a chance to listen to the equipment you are mentioning?

 

I assume you can hear SQ improvement by adding each components. That is a really complicated system and definitely I know it must have good SQ. However, there are lots of parameters, for example each cable and interface can be upgraded. I want to say the market is calling for audio over IP solutions in one box, not a chain.

 

The processing of digital signal begins at DAC. How much would you like to spend on just digital signal streaming?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[tboooe]

I want to say the market is calling for audio over IP solutions in one box, not a chain.

 

 

That would be ideal though I am not holding my breath.

[Astralark]

My ideas: DAC process file that should be exactly the same in your streamer (start point). All you have to do is to send it to DAC with highness accuracy. As digital signal transport in cables with electricity, the electric current should be clean and the jitter should be minimal as possible. That's it. The best way is to use fiber optic to isolate noise PC / and use Revenna protocol for signal accuracy. The signal to a low noise, audio only circuit with clean power supply. The output format is I2S, use high quality master clocks in DAC to slave all digital input. All those can be made in one box (just no product at the moment). My idea is similar to your current configuration just yours seems complicated. Again, I am sure your system has very good SQ because you considered all those.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[mourip]

I assume you can hear SQ improvement by adding each components. That is a really complicated system and definitely I know it must have good SQ. However, there are lots of parameters, for example each cable and interface can be upgraded. I want to say the market is calling for audio over IP solutions in one box, not a chain.

 

The processing of digital signal begins at DAC. How much would you like to spend on just digital signal streaming?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

 

Good questions.

 

Many of us would definitely like a one box two channel audiophile AOIP solution. Let's wish for $1000 or less while we are at it :-)

 

I found that the one box(multi-channel) REDnet D16 sounded better than the USB chain I had which was probably not as good as the Berkeley Alpha but probably was still better than most. I found that successive additions to it improved it even more. The biggest was adding the Mutec, which I already had, as a re-clocker. The Antelope was an improvement as was the fiber link but those were smaller refinements. I added up the costs involved for getting the signal from my PC to my DAC and was a little shocked ...but I could never go back now. Better cables would probably make a difference also but I have not really gone down that rabbit hole yet except to add the fiber link between my PC and the D16 and a few non-stock upgrade power cables. But these are good tweaks for any system.

 

On Head-Fi at least one person is experimenting with the Burl B2 Dante DAC. It is a DAC with ethernet in and SPDIF out and has a Dante card inside. Granted he is now doing some modifying to it but this is a true one box two channel AOIP solution that even includes a good DAC. He sold his Rednet RN3 and Mutec and he is not even done yet. Things are moving fast in this part of our hobby and I really do believe that it is the leading edge.

 

So I am still wondering if you have heard the Mivera System or perhaps another AOIP system? I have been to the Mivera site before but do not see a similar AOIP product actually for sale yet, just their Super Stream Server with USB out.

[Astralark]

Good questions.

 

Many of us would definitely like a one box two channel audiophile AOIP solution. Let's wish for $1000 or less while we are at it :-)

 

I found that the one box(multi-channel) REDnet D16 sounded better than the USB chain I had which was probably not as good as the Berkeley Alpha but probably was still better than most. I found that successive additions to it improved it even more. The biggest was adding the Mutec, which I already had, as a re-clocker. The Antelope was an improvement as was the fiber link but those were smaller refinements. I added up the costs involved for getting the signal from my PC to my DAC and was a little shocked ...but I could never go back now. Better cables would probably make a difference also but I have not really gone down that rabbit hole yet except to add the fiber link between my PC and the D16 and a few non-stock upgrade power cables. But these are good tweaks for any system.

 

On Head-Fi at least one person is experimenting with the Burl B2 Dante DAC. It is a DAC with ethernet in and SPDIF out and has a Dante card inside. Granted he is now doing some modifying to it but this is a true one box two channel AOIP solution that even includes a good DAC. He sold his Rednet RN3 and Mutec and he is not even done yet. Things are moving fast in this part of our hobby and I really do believe that it is the leading edge.

 

So I am still wondering if you have heard the Mivera System or perhaps another AOIP system? I have been to the Mivera site before but do not see a similar AOIP product actually for sale yet, just their Super Stream Server with USB out.

 

Thanks for your detailed explanation. Really helpful. I am currently using my CA popular product uR. I don't have lots of equipments so I can plan a relatively up-to-date solution. I went to shows and read comments to optimize and build my system. I plan to change to Mivera solution (to see if this is a good way) but have no chance to hear because their Revenna pro box is not released now. I just hope there will be more AOIP products in the markets the next year.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[Albrecht]

I am afraid the AES67 audio protocol is not yet an option in my locality.

 

Let's wait for Astralark's report from the upcoming UK audio show on the Merging Nadac vs Chord Dave's usb solution.

 

 

Hi,

 

""I am afraid the AES67 audio protocol is not yet an option in my locality""

 

Of course it's available to everyone.... What do you mean it's not available?

 

"Let's wait for Astralark's report from the upcoming UK audio show on the Merging Nadac vs Chord Dave's usb solution."

 

IMO, Chord makes really great products. The NADAC is a "DOA" product IMO because Merging Tech DAC section simply isn't very good. DACs are outside of the scope of a conversation about Networking vs USB, and/or digital audio file "delivery."

[Albrecht]

I assume you can hear SQ improvement by adding each components. That is a really complicated system and definitely I know it must have good SQ. However, there are lots of parameters, for example each cable and interface can be upgraded. I want to say the market is calling for audio over IP solutions in one box, not a chain.

 

The processing of digital signal begins at DAC. How much would you like to spend on just digital signal streaming?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

 

""I want to say the market is calling for audio over IP solutions in one box, not a chain.""

 

I disagree, - the market is calling for a "better" experience with digital file delivery. There was a lot of (recent) improvement in USB with the introduction of USB isolation, and signal integrity reinforcement in the USB bus. Perhaps, (in the consumer, high-end, audio world), the next logical steps were taken by folks who were looking to the computer industry, and also the pro recording industry as a better way to leverage audio over the LAN. The ICRON/LanRover's were/are a method of linking peripherals in conference rooms.

[Albrecht]

That would be ideal though I am not holding my breath.

 

I don't think that that is necessarily true. I would be willing to bet that there are many who love their DAC and want the option of using it. RedNet + Mutec Clock or PSAudio LanRover allow people to improve upon what they already have as their core 3 components.

[occamsrazor]

What we need is a small 2-channel interface using the Dante Brooklyn II card therefore 24/192 capable and with Ethernet in and SPDIF/AES/i2S out...

[jon2020]

""I am afraid the AES67 audio protocol is not yet an option in my locality""

Of course it's available to everyone.... What do you mean it's not available?

 

This quote from the HiFi+ review of the Merging Nadac has got me confused :-

 

".....The Merging NADAC has an important tale to tell audiophiles – it shows us that what the pros really work with is really good quality equipment, after all. Moreover, it makes a good case for saying RAVENNA should be more common in domestic audio. If it were, the NADAC is the kind of DAC I could seriously envisage using as a reference point...."

 

http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/merging-nadac-digital-converter/?page=4

 

From Wikipedia :-

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AES67

"The Media Networking Alliance was formed in October 2014 to promote adoption of AES67.^[11]"

 

^{Has AES67 been adopted worldwide?}

[Albrecht]

This quote from the HiFi+ review of the Merging Nadac has got me confused :-

 

".....The Merging NADAC has an important tale to tell audiophiles – it shows us that what the pros really work with is really good quality equipment, after all. Moreover, it makes a good case for saying RAVENNA should be more common in domestic audio. If it were, the NADAC is the kind of DAC I could seriously envisage using as a reference point...."

 

Merging NADAC digital converter | Hi-Fi+

 

From Wikipedia :-

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AES67

"The Media Networking Alliance was formed in October 2014 to promote adoption of AES67.^[11]"

 

^{Has AES67 been adopted worldwide?}

 

I don't want to never say never: but based on user reports and them forcing their DAC down our throats, Merging Tec/NADAC has yet to enter the AES67-AOIP game. All the exitement is with the Rednet devices.

[jon2020]

AES67 - What Is It And Why Should You Care? — Pro Tools Expert

 

"However, at the moment rival companies are seeing AES67 as something they need to support rather than bury and because of this it seems to be gaining acceptance."

 

What is the current worldwide support and acceprance of AES67?

[jon2020]

I don't want to never say never: but based on user reports and them forcing their DAC down our throats, Merging Tec/NADAC has yet to enter the AES67-AOIP game. All the exitement is with the Rednet devices.

 

I am getting more info from thie Rednet thread :-

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/focusrite-rednet-28878/index2.html

 

Unfortunately, Rednet does not do dsd.

[Albrecht]

Unfortunately, Rednet does not do dsd.

That is a most excellent point. Hopefully, RedNet will be adding in features like this in the future. I hope that they are working on small footprint stereo version of the RedNet3

Cheers,

[mourip]

So so stay tuned. You guys haven't seen anything yet. Best of all this will only cost $1250 plus clock of choice!! Clocks will range from $100 to $6000 each.

 

Looking forward to the launch. Do you have a time frame yet?

[tboooe]

Best of all this will only cost $1250 plus clock of choice!! .

 

Sign me up!

[joelha]

Also keep in mind anything more than 30 cents per foot worth of single mode fiber cable will be throwing money in the wind. Anything upstream of the fiber switch or FMC in the system will have absolutely no impact on the end quality. Not a single server tweak, cable, power supply or ANYTHING! 100% top performance will be possible from the cheapest cables on the market. As long as it's functioning, it will sound at peak performance.

 

Very interesting post.

 

Would you say this point would apply to any device employing the AES67 protocol or are you making your statement based on other technologies or implementations you've included in your product?

 

Joel

[jon2020]

The reason for this is due to the fiber optic isolation. I'm not aware of any other AES67 digital audio bridge with ST fiber Ethernet input. However if there was, this could likely be the case as well.

 

Thanks for the heads up.

Should be interesting to compare this with microRendu, LanRover, Rednet.