jon2020 Posted September 11, 2016 Author Share Posted September 11, 2016 Have reread CA's Part 1 review of the microrendu :- "The microRendu is a combination of software and hardware, designed to work in concert, to keep processing and ground plane noise a low as possible, while receiving audio over Ethernet and outputting audio over USB to deliver the best possible signal to a digital to analog converter. The end goal is to reproduce the best sound quality possible." From this, it would seem that the final connection would be best by usb but not directly. The ethernet to usb approach has been shown soundwise to be superior to either ethernet or usb direct. It is interesting that the answer to my ethernet vs usb question lies in neither one alone but in ethernet-to-usb. Is this the final answer? Or are there any dissenting views on this? Jon Innuos Zen Mk 3, Shunyata alpha usb cable, Esoteric N-05 dac/network player, MBL N11 preamp, Bryston 28B SST2 monoblocks, Vienna Acoustics The Music speakers, Kimber Select 1126/1130 ic's, Kimber Select 6063 sc, Shunyata Triton, Shunyata/PS Audio pc's, Shunyata Dark Field Suspension System, Harmonix by Combak footers, Shun Mook Pendulum stand Industry Affiliation : None Link to comment
bogi Posted September 11, 2016 Share Posted September 11, 2016 From this, it would seem that the final connection would be best by usb but not directly. The ethernet to usb approach has been shown soundwise to be superior to either ethernet or usb direct. I wouldn't make such a conclusion, because microRendu is not about DACs with LAN input. The text you cited is relevant for DACs with USB input and doesn't deal with LAN input DACs. microRendu has only USB output. DAC with USB input is no more pure DAC. In principle it needs to have basic player functionalities - those pure DACs don't have. It needs to decode incoming stream (it may come in different formats including metadata etc.) and to make pure PCM or DSD stream from it. That is done by music players. Then it has to use some digital transport mechanism to pass that pure PCM/DSD data to DAC. Generally, digital transport can be part of PC soundcards, digital converters (USB or firewire to SPDIF, AES, I2S) or it can be part of USB receiver in DAC. So once again ... DAC with LAN input isn't pure DAC, it is rather combined DAC and network player/streamer. So it is true that 'the problem' of digital transport is just moved to another place - into the housing of LAN capable DAC. Short I2S connection is more suitable in such a situation, that can be advantage. i7 11850H + RTX A2000 Win11 HQPlayer ► Topping HS02 ► 2x iFi iSilencer ► SMSL D300 ► DIY headamp DHA1 ► HiFiMan HE-500 Link to comment
jon2020 Posted September 11, 2016 Author Share Posted September 11, 2016 The ethernet input of a DAC may be fine with the advantage there is likely no conversion to USB and the chips are driven directly. The sound will depend on the implementation. I think we can all agree on this - implementation, implementation, implementation. Jon Innuos Zen Mk 3, Shunyata alpha usb cable, Esoteric N-05 dac/network player, MBL N11 preamp, Bryston 28B SST2 monoblocks, Vienna Acoustics The Music speakers, Kimber Select 1126/1130 ic's, Kimber Select 6063 sc, Shunyata Triton, Shunyata/PS Audio pc's, Shunyata Dark Field Suspension System, Harmonix by Combak footers, Shun Mook Pendulum stand Industry Affiliation : None Link to comment
Cebolla Posted September 11, 2016 Share Posted September 11, 2016 DLNA is a protocol that is implemented with tcp/ip logic and the latter ususally runs on ethernet. There are other portocols, such as Roon RAAT, that will offer similiar functionality as DLNA. The goal appears to be to lower the computer generated noise in the device connected to the DAC. This is where the ethernet connection comes in if a device such as the microRendu is used to bridge ethernet to a USB input DAC. There are other hardware bridges but the microRendu is the only one I have used.I'm afraid you've chosen the wrong protocol in Roon RAAT to say that it offers a similar functionality as UPnP/DLNA, if you are implying that audio file decoding and playback occours at the receiver (the Roon Endpoint) end of the network, as it does with a UPnP Renderer. Roon's audio file player is at the sender end of the network, in the Roon Server. So the Roon Advanced Audio Transport is carrying a realtime digital audio signal, from the Roon Server's internal player output, not the audio file that is being networked streamed by UPnP/DLNA. RAAT is in fact very much closer to the AES 67 Audio over IP protocol used by Ravenna and the like. The microRendu can be configured to operate as a UPnP Renderer, as well as a Roon Endpoint, but that doesn't mean that the protocols used by those modes of operation are similar. We are far more united and have far more in common with each other than things that divide us. -- Jo Cox Link to comment
Cebolla Posted September 11, 2016 Share Posted September 11, 2016 Are there any downsides to DLNA compared to ethernet or usb?If this is the ideal solution, should it then not be the only solution? It depends. If your absolute requirement is to carry on using a favoured application to play audio files on a computer, then of course that becomes redundant with network audio file streaming, since the receiving renderer aka network audio player aka streamer does the audio file playing. Also, using a network audio player to output to an existing (non network file playing) DAC would of course not give you any possible benefit of the close internal connection between the audio file playing section and DAC section of a network audio player/streamer DAC. We are far more united and have far more in common with each other than things that divide us. -- Jo Cox Link to comment
jon2020 Posted September 12, 2016 Author Share Posted September 12, 2016 It depends. If your absolute requirement is to carry on using a favoured application to play audio files on a computer, then of course that becomes redundant with network audio file streaming, since the receiving renderer aka network audio player aka streamer does the audio file playing. Also, using a network audio player to output to an existing (non network file playing) DAC would of course not give you any possible benefit of the close internal connection between the audio file playing section and DAC section of a network audio player/streamer DAC. My only absolute requirement is to get the best SQ possible. Given CA's extensive exposure to LAN/usb input dac's, and seeing that Chris has settled on the ethernet to usb solution via microrendu as giving the best SQ result to date, that would mean something, a lot actually. Jon Innuos Zen Mk 3, Shunyata alpha usb cable, Esoteric N-05 dac/network player, MBL N11 preamp, Bryston 28B SST2 monoblocks, Vienna Acoustics The Music speakers, Kimber Select 1126/1130 ic's, Kimber Select 6063 sc, Shunyata Triton, Shunyata/PS Audio pc's, Shunyata Dark Field Suspension System, Harmonix by Combak footers, Shun Mook Pendulum stand Industry Affiliation : None Link to comment
wklie Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 My only absolute requirement is to get the best SQ possible. Although I personally believe a cheap Ethernet cable connected to a network player will beat a PC -> cheap USB cable without any isolation -> equally priced DAC, what I believe does not really matter. Theory and practice are different, implementations are different, and everyone's configurations are different. You own a player that accepts both USB and Ethernet input, so you're in the best position to try both and tells us your results, once you manage to network-enable your player. When you do that, I'd like to read your comparison between a non-isolated USB vs a non-isolated Ethernet (isolating USB but not the Ethernet would not be very fair). Peter Lie LUMIN Firmware Lead Link to comment
Rexp Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 Although I personally believe a cheap Ethernet cable connected to a network player will beat a PC -> cheap USB cable without any isolation -> equally priced DAC, what I believe does not really matter. Theory and practice are different, implementations are different, and everyone's configurations are different. You own a player that accepts both USB and Ethernet input, so you're in the best position to try both and tells us your results, once you manage to network-enable your player. When you do that, I'd like to read your comparison between a non-isolated USB vs a non-isolated Ethernet (isolating USB but not the Ethernet would not be very fair). +1, and if you have an analog source as a reference, I'd take your opinion over Chris's. Link to comment
jon2020 Posted September 13, 2016 Author Share Posted September 13, 2016 Although I personally believe a cheap Ethernet cable connected to a network player will beat a PC -> cheap USB cable without any isolation -> equally priced DAC, what I believe does not really matter. Theory and practice are different, implementations are different, and everyone's configurations are different. You own a player that accepts both USB and Ethernet input, so you're in the best position to try both and tells us your results, once you manage to network-enable your player. When you do that, I'd like to read your comparison between a non-isolated USB vs a non-isolated Ethernet (isolating USB but not the Ethernet would not be very fair). It would be more useful to compare a well-optimised/isolated usb set-up vs an ethernet set-up that is just as well-optimised/isolated as my current usb set-up is already well-optimised/isolated. To go only part of the way, ie non-isolated, would not answer the question as to whether a switch to optimised ethernet direct or to optimised ethernet to usb would give better SQ. Jon Innuos Zen Mk 3, Shunyata alpha usb cable, Esoteric N-05 dac/network player, MBL N11 preamp, Bryston 28B SST2 monoblocks, Vienna Acoustics The Music speakers, Kimber Select 1126/1130 ic's, Kimber Select 6063 sc, Shunyata Triton, Shunyata/PS Audio pc's, Shunyata Dark Field Suspension System, Harmonix by Combak footers, Shun Mook Pendulum stand Industry Affiliation : None Link to comment
mourip Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 It would be more useful to compare a well-optimised/isolated usb set-up vs an ethernet set-up that is just as well-optimised/isolated as my current usb set-up is already well-optimised/isolated. To go only part of the way, ie non-isolated, would not answer the question as to whether a switch to optimised ethernet direct or to optimised ethernet to usb would give better SQ. I initially had PC > USB cable>AQJB> REGEN AMBER(powered by LPS)>Mutec MC3+ USB> AES cable > DAC. I now have PC with Dante Virtual Sound Card(DVS) >CAT7 ethernet cable> TP-LINK MC200CM Gigabit Media Converter to optical fiber to TP-LINK MC200CM Gigabit Media Converter> CAT7 >Focusrite Rednet D16 > AES cable> Mutec MC3+ USB as re-sampler > AES cable > DAC with an Antelope LiveClock as wordclock for both the D16 and the Mutec. Even without the Antelope the ethernet audio over IP(AOIP) setup was another world better in every area of SQ over the USB chain. More natural, involving, detailed with a darker background. It is not an inexpensive solution however but neither is an end game USB solution. "Don't Believe Everything You Think" System Link to comment
jon2020 Posted September 13, 2016 Author Share Posted September 13, 2016 I initially had PC > USB cable>AQJB> REGEN AMBER(powered by LPS)>Mutec MC3+ USB> AES cable > DAC. I now have PC with Dante Virtual Sound Card(DVS) >CAT7 ethernet cable> TP-LINK MC200CM Gigabit Media Converter to optical fiber to TP-LINK MC200CM Gigabit Media Converter> CAT7 >Focusrite Rednet D16 > AES cable> Mutec MC3+ USB as re-sampler > AES cable > DAC with an Antelope LiveClock as wordclock for both the D16 and the Mutec. Even without the Antelope the ethernet audio over IP(AOIP) setup was another world better in every area of SQ over the USB chain. More natural, involving, detailed with a darker background. It is not an inexpensive solution however but neither is an end game USB solution. Thanks for your input. Your set-up can indeed be considered an end game ethernet solution. What would an end game usb solution entail? Jon Innuos Zen Mk 3, Shunyata alpha usb cable, Esoteric N-05 dac/network player, MBL N11 preamp, Bryston 28B SST2 monoblocks, Vienna Acoustics The Music speakers, Kimber Select 1126/1130 ic's, Kimber Select 6063 sc, Shunyata Triton, Shunyata/PS Audio pc's, Shunyata Dark Field Suspension System, Harmonix by Combak footers, Shun Mook Pendulum stand Industry Affiliation : None Link to comment
davide256 Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 I'm a bit puzzled by this thread as most of the solutions shown still seem to have USB and PC's in signal path. So a basic question Can I today eliminate USB successfully in an optical Ethernet solution that is not PC source; replace my microRendu with an Ethernet attached device that will sound better with coax/optical/AES outputs to my DAC? I'm all for elimination of asynch USB... to me its an engineering compromise vs designing the source/transport solution to deliver data with perfect timing to the DAC Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
mourip Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 Thanks for your input. Your set-up can indeed be considered an end game ethernet solution. What would an end game usb solution entail? Probably a chain with all of the usual tweaks and using a Berkeley Alpha USB to SPDIF converter. There is a long thread on Head-Fi that evaluates USB to SPDIF devices. You might want to start at the end and work your way back as it is very long. Lot's of great info there. The Rednet thread is also very good. Ironically Head-Fi is a very good place to find good computer audio discoveries. There is also a bit less contention there. XMOS XU208 USB BRIDGES - THE LATEST GEN HAS ARRIVED! AUDIO over IP - REDNET 3 & 16 Review. AES67 Sets A New Standard for Computer Audio "Don't Believe Everything You Think" System Link to comment
skyline Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 I use ethernet over power line for my modified Sonos Connect. I've had to go to great lengths to reduce noise coming from the ethernet. The first big step was moving the ethernet power line from the wall outlet and connecting it to my Entreq Powerus Challenger. Huge improvement, but still too noisy for comfortable long term listening. Second step was adding the Waversa hub, which regenerates the ethernet signal and filters out noise. Another drop in noise, accompanied with a big jump in refinement and air. Next step will be to replace the stock ethernet cables with totaldac ethernet cables. Waversa hub > Lumin S1 > Bakoon HPA-21 Link to comment
jon2020 Posted September 14, 2016 Author Share Posted September 14, 2016 I use ethernet over power line for my modified Sonos Connect. I've had to go to great lengths to reduce noise coming from the ethernet. The first big step was moving the ethernet power line from the wall outlet and connecting it to my Entreq Powerus Challenger. Huge improvement, but still too noisy for comfortable long term listening. Second step was adding the Waversa hub, which regenerates the ethernet signal and filters out noise. Another drop in noise, accompanied with a big jump in refinement and air. Next step will be to replace the stock ethernet cables with totaldac ethernet cables. I surmise that you are going ethernet over power line for the same reason that I contemplated doing likewise, ie my router is too far away from my rig. As we know, a direct ethernet connection to the router is much better in terms of noise isolation. If I do switch to ethernet, it would be via an ethernet outlet near my rig through the wall and not via the power line. Jon Innuos Zen Mk 3, Shunyata alpha usb cable, Esoteric N-05 dac/network player, MBL N11 preamp, Bryston 28B SST2 monoblocks, Vienna Acoustics The Music speakers, Kimber Select 1126/1130 ic's, Kimber Select 6063 sc, Shunyata Triton, Shunyata/PS Audio pc's, Shunyata Dark Field Suspension System, Harmonix by Combak footers, Shun Mook Pendulum stand Industry Affiliation : None Link to comment
jon2020 Posted September 14, 2016 Author Share Posted September 14, 2016 I'm a bit puzzled by this thread as most of the solutions shown still seem to have USB and PC's in signal path. So a basic question Can I today eliminate USB successfully in an optical Ethernet solution that is not PC source; replace my microRendu with an Ethernet attached device that will sound better with coax/optical/AES outputs to my DAC? I'm all for elimination of asynch USB... to me its an engineering compromise vs designing the source/transport solution to deliver data with perfect timing to the DAC Good question - is an optimised all-ethernet solution better than what an optimised async usb/ethernet to usb solution can offer in SQ? Jon Innuos Zen Mk 3, Shunyata alpha usb cable, Esoteric N-05 dac/network player, MBL N11 preamp, Bryston 28B SST2 monoblocks, Vienna Acoustics The Music speakers, Kimber Select 1126/1130 ic's, Kimber Select 6063 sc, Shunyata Triton, Shunyata/PS Audio pc's, Shunyata Dark Field Suspension System, Harmonix by Combak footers, Shun Mook Pendulum stand Industry Affiliation : None Link to comment
kso3 Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 I'm us PS Audio LanRover to send music over my Ethernet home network to my audio system. It works great and sounds much better than USB output IMO. It's priced at $600 us. Link to comment
skyline Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 I surmise that you are going ethernet over power line for the same reason that I contemplated doing likewise, ie my router is too far away from my rig.As we know, a direct ethernet connection to the router is much better in terms of noise isolation. If I do switch to ethernet, it would be via an ethernet outlet near my rig through the wall and not via the power line. Yes, that's the reason. Though I found that ethernet over power line is quite a bit better than wi-fi. Although that's not saying much as it's very noisy. Luckily there are solutions like the Waversa hub for people like us. Even if I went direct to router, I would still use the Waversa. It's a spectacular piece of gear. Waversa hub > Lumin S1 > Bakoon HPA-21 Link to comment
jon2020 Posted September 14, 2016 Author Share Posted September 14, 2016 Probably a chain with all of the usual tweaks and using a Berkeley Alpha USB to SPDIF converter. There is a long thread on Head-Fi that evaluates USB to SPDIF devices. You might want to start at the end and work your way back as it is very long. Lot's of great info there. The Rednet thread is also very good. Ironically Head-Fi is a very good place to find good computer audio discoveries. There is also a bit less contention there. XMOS XU208 USB BRIDGES - THE LATEST GEN HAS ARRIVED! AUDIO over IP - REDNET 3 & 16 Review. AES67 Sets A New Standard for Computer Audio Thanks for the links. Good to know. Jon Innuos Zen Mk 3, Shunyata alpha usb cable, Esoteric N-05 dac/network player, MBL N11 preamp, Bryston 28B SST2 monoblocks, Vienna Acoustics The Music speakers, Kimber Select 1126/1130 ic's, Kimber Select 6063 sc, Shunyata Triton, Shunyata/PS Audio pc's, Shunyata Dark Field Suspension System, Harmonix by Combak footers, Shun Mook Pendulum stand Industry Affiliation : None Link to comment
jon2020 Posted September 14, 2016 Author Share Posted September 14, 2016 I'm us PS Audio LanRover to send music over my Ethernet home network to my audio system. It works great and sounds much better than USB output IMO. It's priced at $600 us. I have read about the LANRover. It is interesting that it transmits the regenerated, reclocked usb data from the pc to the dac's usb input via an ethernet cable. This is something I can try with no need for a connection to my faraway router, to see if it betters my current set-up with the iFi usb 3.0 reclocker/regenerator. Was your previous usb set-up isolated and reclocked with products from iFi, Uptone Regen or others? Jon Innuos Zen Mk 3, Shunyata alpha usb cable, Esoteric N-05 dac/network player, MBL N11 preamp, Bryston 28B SST2 monoblocks, Vienna Acoustics The Music speakers, Kimber Select 1126/1130 ic's, Kimber Select 6063 sc, Shunyata Triton, Shunyata/PS Audio pc's, Shunyata Dark Field Suspension System, Harmonix by Combak footers, Shun Mook Pendulum stand Industry Affiliation : None Link to comment
kso3 Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 My previous set was jriver on a laptop feeding iFi Micro USB/spdif converter to a Dac without a USB input. I then inserted the LanRover with laptop and SQ improved. I still have the iFi Micro inserted between LanRover and Dac. I have now replaced my Laptop that was sitting near my audio system with a Mac Mini that's set up in my office on the other side of the house. I just plug a Ethernet cable into the LanRover receiver and that plugs back into the iFi Micro. Link to comment
jon2020 Posted September 14, 2016 Author Share Posted September 14, 2016 My previous set was jriver on a laptop feeding iFi Micro USB/spdif converter to a Dac without a USB input. I then inserted the LanRover with laptop and SQ improved. I still have the iFi Micro inserted between LanRover and Dac. I have now replaced my Laptop that was sitting near my audio system with a Mac Mini that's set up in my office on the other side of the house. I just plug a Ethernet cable into the LanRover receiver and that plugs back into the iFi Micro. I used to have the iFi micro usb- spdif converter too for my previous source which was not well implemnted for usb. But I went usb direct with my current usb dac as its usb input via the iFi micro usb 3.0 sounds better than the coax input. I have gone through the thread here on network isolation and it seems like a rather daunting task to a non-EE like myself. If the LanRover actually makes usb sound very, very good without the hassle of network isolation, that would make life a whole lot less hairy for a computer audiophile. I called my local PS Audio dealer yesterday and unfortunately the LanRover is not yet in stock. Jon Innuos Zen Mk 3, Shunyata alpha usb cable, Esoteric N-05 dac/network player, MBL N11 preamp, Bryston 28B SST2 monoblocks, Vienna Acoustics The Music speakers, Kimber Select 1126/1130 ic's, Kimber Select 6063 sc, Shunyata Triton, Shunyata/PS Audio pc's, Shunyata Dark Field Suspension System, Harmonix by Combak footers, Shun Mook Pendulum stand Industry Affiliation : None Link to comment
davide256 Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 I used to have the iFi micro usb- spdif converter too for my previous source which was not well implemnted for usb. But I went usb direct with my current usb dac as its usb input via the iFi micro usb 3.0 sounds better than the coax input. I have gone through the thread here on network isolation and it seems like a rather daunting task to a non-EE like myself. If the LanRover actually makes usb sound very, very good without the hassle of network isolation, that would make life a whole lot less hairy for a computer audiophile. I called my local PS Audio dealer yesterday and unfortunately the LanRover is not yet in stock. So should one consider the Lanrover as a competitor to asynch USB devices like Mutec and Audiophilleo? Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
kso3 Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 It was super easy to install and implement without knowing too much about networks. It made a big difference in SQ. To me it was like going from old 4:3 ratio tvs to HD. I'm not looking back. And having my Mac mini (or PC) away from sound system is a big plus. And, since going to wired Ethernet the JRemote works instantaneously. I'm looking for a new Dac, hopefully one that accepts USB, so that the USB to spdif conversion can be eliminated. I hope you don't have to wait long for the LanRover! Link to comment
kso3 Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 I guess it's a competitor since you could implement the LanRover send and receive modules without actually having the signal ever hit your Ethernet network. But for me, the goal was to move the computer system away from my sound system. And LanRover did that. And it sounds much better than my old implementation using the USB out of a laptop running jriver into the iFi Micro into my Dac. Link to comment
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