Forget storage comparison. Even the same storage can sound different with different file copying methods

[sandyk]

I would also suspect that regarding the particular topic of this thread, alfe is perhaps one of the worlds experts. Perhaps.

 

He is indeed, and we are fortunate to have him as a member who also follows up many of our reports with further research of his own, as well as in an official capacity for his employer(s)

[sandyk]

Where was I nasty and obnoxious to Alfe?

 

Where did I question his expertise?

 

I merely said that I often find his responses cryptic and frustrating to read.

 

 

Feeling guilty ?

I quite clearly addressed my reply to Plissken.

[jabbr]

I think you may find that members such as Mansr and some others are able to benefit from the links that Alfe provides. However, for the rest of us it is likely to be way too technical ?

 

Rereading the thread, alfe suggested that the audible differences had to do with "buffer size" got ignored (ok perhaps too cryptic) but then provided a reference to support his argument ... and then the OP, whose report alfe was providing an explanation for, jumps on him

 

... what is going on here?

 

Don't the Objectivists want explanations? Access to people who have access to real test equipment?

[kumakuma]

Deleted

[sandyk]

Rereading the thread, alfe suggested that the audible differences had to do with "buffer size" got ignored (ok perhaps too cryptic) but then provided a reference to support his argument ... and then the OP, whose report alfe was providing an explanation for, jumps on him

 

... what is going on here?

 

Hi Jabbr

I think that language barriers may be part of the problem here, with some taking offence when there was none intended, just robust discussion perhaps ?

 

Kind Regards

Alex

[plissken]

Rereading the thread, alfe suggested that the audible differences had to do with "buffer size" got ignored (ok perhaps too cryptic) but then provided a reference to support his argument ... and then the OP, whose report alfe was providing an explanation for, jumps on him

 

... what is going on here?

 

Don't the Objectivists want explanations? Access to people who have access to real test equipment?

 

Alfe made a mistake in posting a slide presentation with zero context or showing any ability to actually stake a clear position as to why he was using it as a citation. This is like English 102 type mistakes here.

 

Let me show you all what he did:

 

LMGTFY

 

Click on the 3rd link down. And just to give this the Coupe de Grace and bring this full circle since Alfe wanted to make some inane point about HD's and ADC here is pertinent tidbit from his own 'supporting' document:

 

"a 6-bit ADC is employed in HDD"

 

All of us using computers or NAS, or USB attached storage potentially are dealing with 6 bit A2D conversion in our audio systems. Think about why it doesn't matter one iota.

 

That is what is going on here.

 

[sandyk]

Don't the Objectivists want explanations? Access to people who have access to real test equipment?

 

It appears that some of them don't, and now they have added another scalp to the list of genuine qualified experts in their field who they have managed to drive away with their sarcasm and insults !

[jabbr]

It appears that some of them don't, and now they have added another scalp to the list of genuine qualified experts in their field who they have managed to drive away with their sarcasm and insults !

 

As they say at Princeton, or was that SemiSouth, to those eBayers purveying FirstWatt SIT clones: illegitimi non carborundum

[jabbr]

Alfe made a mistake in posting a slide presentation with zero context or showing any ability to actually stake a clear position as to why he was using it as a citation. This is like English 102 type mistakes here.

 

Let me show you all what he did:

 

LMGTFY

 

Click on the 3rd link down. And just to give this the Coupe de Grace and bring this full circle since Alfe wanted to make some inane point about HD's and ADC here is pertinent tidbit from his own 'supporting' document:

 

"a 6-bit ADC is employed in HDD"

 

All of us using computers or NAS, or USB attached storage potentially are dealing with 6 bit A2D conversion in our audio systems. Think about why it doesn't matter one iota.

 

That is what is going on here.

 

 

My advice to you is to resist the temptation to confess your ignorance.

 

jabbr out.

[plissken]

My advice to you is to resist the temptation to confess your ignorance.

 

jabbr out.

 

And what ignorance would that be? That audio is played out of cache and not directly off disk? That it doesn't matter if you use a product like ultracopy because hard disks are written out in blocks irregardless? That we aren't doing a zero copy stack but data is getting read many times?

 

What possible, factual, argument can you make at this point?

 

So any comment on all the possible 6 bit ADC going on in computer playback or dedicated streamers that employ HD storage?

 

And I'll leave you with this response from Peter_W at the forums at HiFiCritic:

 

"If anyone interpreted my words to suggest that I was dismissing listening tests as being invalid, then that's not true. I do believe in listening. All I was saying was if you are hearing differences, then you're looking for the explanation in the wrong place if you believe that there's some magic inherent property in a data file over and above the 1s and 0s. Believe me, there isn't.

 

Before I spent 10 years in radios, I cut my engineering teeth writing device drivers for disk drives. On its way from the disk to the DAC, the data is copied over and over and over again. (Engineering note: Yes, it shouldn't be, and yes, a zero-copy stack is a fine goal, but not one we might expect to find in our lifetime). It comes from the disk itself through the whole head assembly, checksum, decode thing into buffer memory, then into a queue and up through a SATA (or whatever) cable into a SATA controller's buffer memory, then via DMA over a backplane into the PC's memory. After that, if you're lucky, it might be zero-copy on its way to the application, or it may not. Probably not, because the raw disk block data that's now in memory needs a bit of sorting to get it into whatever posix-stylee file-stream interface the OS wants to present to the application. And then the application's going to shuffle it around so it can then be fed back down a whole different chain through the USB interface out to a DAC.

 

There are no magic properties in the data file that's on disk (or FLASH disk), and certainly won't be after all of that's been done to it. In storage, bits-r-bits I'm afraid."

[sandyk]

Ho Hum !

[kaufenpreis]

I'm not discounting the possibility.

[Sal1950]

There are no magic properties in the data file that's on disk (or FLASH disk), and certainly won't be after all of that's been done to it. In storage, bits-r-bits I'm afraid."

 

+1

They all so want us to believe in the "magic dust" they pray to. LOL

[jabbr]

And what ignorance would that be? That audio is played out of cache and not directly off disk? That it doesn't matter if you use a product like ultracopy because hard disks are written out in blocks irregardless? That we aren't doing a zero copy stack but data is getting read many times?

 

What possible, factual, argument can you make at this point?

...

 

There are no magic properties in the data file that's on disk (or FLASH disk), and certainly won't be after all of that's been done to it. In storage, bits-r-bits I'm afraid."

 

Your closemindedness blinds you to learning more about what is happening on a physical level.

 

Who is suggesting that a data file on disk has "magic properties"? The way that bits are stored is well documented and alfe has posted links to papers and presentations that discuss the actual electronics involved but to summarize, as far as the HDD electronics are concerned, the bits are stored in a purely analog fashion. Capiche?

 

In a good freshman level electronics course, you will learn how to construct logic gates from transistors and you will learn to construct a microprocessor from logic gates and you will learn that all of digital electronics is an abstraction built on analog electronics : no magic involved. Let's look at a new technology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_magnetoresistance Is this analog or digital or both?

 

So this all should be very obvious and what I would describe as entry level electronics, but for those who haven't taken a college level electronics course, and there is no reason to require that to participate on this forum, just understand that these issues, and the duality layering of all that is digital on an analog foundation is fundamental to the technology that we use on a daily basis.

 

Now lets move on to things that make you go hmmm....

 

1) What influences the sound that comes out of a motherboard? Quality of the electronics? Quality of power supply? Quality of caps? etc. etc.

2) Is the sound that comes directly out of a motherboard the best that we can achieve?

If your answer is "yes" then "bits are bits" and move on. If the answer is "no" then lets look at factors that influence the sound.

 

(this is where I point out that I've been a very strong proponent of buffering and isolation but this thread concerns storage media so let's focus on that)

3) Does the presence of a HDD influence the sound coming out of a computer (and to be real here, lets assume the DAC is directly connected to the computer by USB)?

 

-- I can tell you that I personally use a diskless (iSCSI booted) audio computer (NAA) and can hear an improvement in SQ when the entire SATA device is removed

---How could that be?

 

Think about that.

[plissken]

I'm not discounting the possibility.

 

Given that the data is 100% reconstructed / rebuilt about 6-8 times as it makes it's way from disk to DAC you reasonably could. And this is just on an HD in a local machine.

 

Think about this in networking terms: When you request data from your server or NAS in the house it's read from disk and reconstructed in the on disks own on PCB RAM. Then it's queued up from there and reconstructed over the SATA backplane to the SATA controllers buffer, then another reconstruction from there to local system RAM set aside by the CPU.

 

From there the network stack takes it over reconstructs it through the presentation/session/application layers (packed as a PDU) fragmented into packets, wrapped in a frame, shot over the network where it hits a switch, back out to another switch or WAP (potentially) and finally hits your NIC where it's shot up through the physical layer, then data link layer, then network, transport (packets reassembled into PDU's), session, presentation, application, queued into RAM buffer again, read from RAM buffer into the USB buffer, then over the USB cable into the DAC's buffer.

[plissken]

-- I can tell you that I personally use a diskless (iSCSI booted) audio computer (NAA) and can hear an improvement in SQ when the entire SATA device is removed

---How could that be?

 

Expectation bias.

[plissken]

 

Who is suggesting that a data file on disk has "magic properties"? The way that bits are stored is well documented and alfe has posted links to papers and presentations that discuss the actual electronics involved but to summarize, as far as the HDD electronics are concerned, the bits are stored in a purely analog fashion. Capiche?

 

Think about that.

 

 

It could be originally stored with binary punch cards. The point is after the data has been copied 6 times to finally make it to the DAC's buffer it doesn't care a fig if it was read from a punch card.

 

The DAC has ZERO clue as to the original non-volatile storage medium. I bet if you looked at the firmware on a DAC that there would be zero code for making a call to a SATA controller.

 

I've already received free lifetime licensing from Jim at JRiver, I wonder what other swag I can score with these threads.

[plissken]

In a good freshman level electronics course, you will learn how to construct logic gates from transistors and you will learn to construct a microprocessor from logic gates and you will learn that all of digital electronics is an abstraction built on analog electronics : no magic involved. Let's look at a new technology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_magnetoresistance Is this analog or digital or both?

 

So this all should be very obvious and what I would describe as entry level electronics, but for those who haven't taken a college level electronics course, and there is no reason to require that to participate on this forum, just understand that these issues, and the duality layering of all that is digital on an analog foundation is fundamental to the technology that we use on a daily basis.

 

If you have a point to make I'm still waiting for it. Interesting read. The two different current states for spin up vs spin down electrons was very interesting. But unsure what it's application is when a DAC is reading data 6 times removed.

 

 

3) Does the presence of a HDD influence the sound coming out of a computer (and to be real here, lets assume the DAC is directly connected to the computer by USB)?

 

I guess a really jacked up drive could do something. I've certainly never experienced that. But it may be that I know how to put all this together properly.

 

I was getting the 3TB Toshiba Canvio GB Ethernet NAS for $70 and just using the Inno Kangaroo PC with USB dac. 32GB solid state storage, battery backed (good for 4 hours or so) for $99. Just use MSconfig to turn all the un-needed items off.

 

This will feed a $2500 DAC just as well as a crazy expensive high wattage PC with local storage.

[Paul R]

It could be originally stored with binary punch cards. The point is after the data has been copied 6 times to finally make it to the DAC's buffer it doesn't care a fig if it was read from a punch card.

 

The DAC has ZERO clue as to the original non-volatile storage medium. I bet if you looked at the firmware on a DAC that there would be zero code for making a call to a SATA controller.

 

I've already received free lifetime licensing from Jim at JRiver, I wonder what other swag I can score with these threads.

 

 

If scoring "swag" is your primary reason to stir up such witches brew - then - please consider doing it somewhere else. In fact, don't even bother considering it, just go shit all over someone else's table.

 

Everything you say from now on will be tinged with the idea of corruption.

 

-Paul

[kumakuma]

Who is suggesting that a data file on disk has "magic properties"?

 

Both the OP of this thread and Alex with his bit identical files sound different crusade...

[plissken]

If scoring "swag" is your primary reason to stir up such witches brew - then - please consider doing it somewhere else. In fact, don't even bother considering it, just go shit all over someone else's table.

 

Everything you say from now on will be tinged with the idea of corruption.

 

-Paul

 

I'm making a point about a thread much like this one. One that Jim was kind enough to give me a thumbs up and free JRiver licensing. It was for being 100% correct.

 

The positions about Data, Block Storage, Multiple copy stacks, people posting PDF's, slide shows, links to articles that they are incapable of using to make their point is the real shitting on the table and Alfe/Sandyk/Jabbr are the ones doing it.

 

That you haven't figured that out leaves me with the idea that everything you say is tinged with the idea of you being a sycophant to the subjective crowd here.

 

If you can't beat them with fact just dazzle them with bullshit. Right Paul?

 

Anyone that wants to push me off my data driven position feel free to do so or just shut up.

[plissken]

Both the OP of this thread and Alex with his bit identical files sound different crusade...

 

You can't fix stupid KumaKuma.

 

In the face of buffered data that is exactly what this is. Just pure, willfully, uncorrected ignorance.

 

They can't even post a link to HDD encoding with out coming off looking like an idiot. It's like getting injured with your own weapon.

[jabbr]

Both the OP of this thread and Alex with his bit identical files sound different crusade...

 

Without casting aspersions on what anyone believes -- I am trying to give rational explanations of:

 

a) electronic reasons why copies of files may sound different -- not magic

b) ways to reduce that

[kumakuma]

Without casting aspersions on what anyone believes -- I am trying to give rational explanations of:

 

a) electronic reasons why copies of files may sound different -- not magic

b) ways to reduce that

 

Thank you.

 

I think a correct understanding of what happens in a computer at the physical (hardware) level and the data (software) level is important so that we focus our time and money on the things that really matter when it comes to improving sound quality.

 

The reality is that NOT everything matters and when it comes to things that do matter, some things matter a lot more than others.

[Sal1950]

-- I can tell you that I personally use a diskless (iSCSI booted) audio computer (NAA) and can hear an improvement in SQ when the entire SATA device is removed

---How could that be?

Think about that.

 

HUMMM, OK that's just ridiculous.