Forget storage comparison. Even the same storage can sound different with different file copying methods

[plissken]

As a related bit of information. I was involved in a thread about DSD, particularly the data throughput rate required. I was corrected with very well put together and factual information.

 

I didn't throw a tantrum. I recognized salient information and incorporated into my understanding. The first part was ignorance on my part.

 

If I was to dig in and just start throwing up links to articles I hadn't read or the lacked ability to interpret correctly. provided it with zero paraphrasing, summation, or direct quote of parts of it to make my point...

 

If I was just to throw up a red herring (HD's have 6 bit ADC so that makes noise and noise isn't good and it could playback out of a successfully filled DAC buffer) etc... Or the actuator motor is designed to prevent a head crash on sudden power loss and hey it's all driven by electricity and DAC's are driven by electrictiy...

 

Now that would make me stupid.

 

What you see as some sort of derisive term I see as a particular state of existence for some participants here. And that's on you. No I can't fix stupid. I can only provide data. You can't lead a horse to water and make it think.

[jabbr]

I am glad that a college level electronics course isn't required to participate on this forum.

 

For sure! For most of us, the goal is listening enjoyment which is a purely subjective experience.

[davide256]

Intel and AMD control the reference designs. They know and understand high speed signalling and grounding.

 

Keep throwing up the red herrings. Maybe they'll turn into Mackerel. It's the DAC's job to reject noise and properly designed DAC's do.

 

Benchmark ran 100 foot of cable and ran USB over it. Their DAC was 100% able to extract the data and play back perfect audio.

 

I'm not aware that either AMD or Intel manufacture computer systems. They manufacture the CPU's and some essential chipsets used by MOBO manufacturers.

The MOBO manufacturers have the unenviable task of device integration in a cut throat industry where price competition always drives design compromises. These design compromises and the surprises that occasionally crop up between devices and chipset functionality are the core of why we are all struggling with different levels of audio resolution from PC to PC. And probably why an Apple computer off the shelf sounds better than most untweaked PC's.

[esldude]

I'm not aware that either AMD or Intel manufacture computer systems. They manufacture the CPU's and some essential chipsets used by MOBO manufacturers.

The MOBO manufacturers have the unenviable task of device integration in a cut throat industry where price competition always drives design compromises. These design compromises and the surprises that occasionally crop up between devices and chipset functionality are the core of why we are all struggling with different levels of audio resolution from PC to PC. And probably why an Apple computer off the shelf sounds better than most untweaked PC's.

 

plissken, he is addicted to the red herrings. Don't try and switch him to mackerals.

 

Different levels of audio resolution from PC to PC. How cute. Exactly where do these resolution differences show up in the analog output?

 

Intel does make NUC's btw.

 

The only time I have experienced a computer effecting audio resolution was listening to vinyl. The Mac Mini having the onboard PS was positioned too close to the phono pre and was causing odd distortion and occasional oscillation. An interim fix was to ground a piece of aluminum foil and place it between the two devices. Later we moved the Mini about 6 feet away.

[sandyk]

I have definitely been able to hear differences in an identical file when played back from different media. Streaming the file from a SAN device, or over the network essentially eliminates those differences for me. That tells me it is much more likely to be electrical noise or software issues than any physical artifact related to the storage format. YMMV.

Paul

Do you include here , say the same file saved on an internal SSD, as the same file on an internal HDD , or a plugged in USB memory stick, all with the same computer ?

 

Alex

[jabbr]

...

[sandyk]

Jon

The auto reply I received is not the same as the above, which you already know I agree with.

I am trying to see if Paul and myself have any common ground.

Regards

Alex

[plissken]

I'm not aware that either AMD or Intel manufacture computer systems. They manufacture the CPU's and some essential chipsets used by MOBO manufacturers.

The MOBO manufacturers have the unenviable task of device integration in a cut throat industry where price competition always drives design compromises. These design compromises and the surprises that occasionally crop up between devices and chipset functionality are the core of why we are all struggling with different levels of audio resolution from PC to PC. And probably why an Apple computer off the shelf sounds better than most untweaked PC's.

 

Here you go:

 

Intel® Boards and Kits

 

Because it's such a cut throat industry AMD and Intel come up with the foundation reference design and manufacturers at a peripheral level augment.

 

I have a Mac Mini. I have a Kangaroo (by Inno). Both sound exactly the same when using Windows.

[jabbr]

It is mass stupidity. It's ignorance left uncorrected.

 

[Paul R]

Paul

Do you include here , say the same file saved on an internal SSD, as the same file on an internal HDD , or a plugged in USB memory stick, all with the same computer ?

 

Alex

 

Alex - I have always said that identical files can sound different when played back on the same system from different media. I even spent significant time putting together reasonable tests to prove that because I did not really think it would be so.

 

You arrogantly took that bit of information and told other people I supported some of your unreasonable theories and wrong conclusions. Such as transmitting a file over the internet will in some mystical manner, degrade it.

 

I absolutely do not support those ideas, and in fact, I adamantly oppose them. And those two psuedo-scientific scam artists you like to reference as sources as well.

 

When I started getting queries about this stuff back from people who had seen your posts in other places on the internet, or been directed to your posts, I had to stop you from using my name like that. It really impacted on my professional reputation in ways that were unacceptable and detrimental to me.

 

I gave up trying to support you then. When I mentioned to you that really good vibration control, such as what Barry D. shared with us, apparently made almost all those difference disappear, your condescending reply told me quickly enough you were not interested in facts or findings that did not support your crazier theories. Moreover, you have consistantly refused to run your tests in any kind of controlled environment, so what tests you have made are not compelling at all.

 

To be honest, it is like you have some button that can be pushed which simply turns off all your good sense and you then fail to censor anything you say. To anyone.

 

You have detrimentally affected other people besides myself by the way. But they can choose to engage with you or not for themselves. (*sigh*)

 

In non audio stuff, you can consider me a friend. I won't engage or support you on *any* audio topic any longer.

 

I hope it is clear that I do not and will not support your wild theories until and unless some really hard evidence is presented that cannot be explained by more mundane means. Yes, that means you would have to do some real research and document it well, without all the histrionics and grandstanding.

[Paul R]

Here you go:

 

Intel® Boards and Kits

 

Because it's such a cut throat industry AMD and Intel come up with the foundation reference design and manufacturers at a peripheral level augment.

 

I have a Mac Mini. I have a Kangaroo (by Inno). Both sound exactly the same when using Windows.

 

The audio on the NUC units appears to be RealTek, and the reference implementation for that audio is not from Intel. There are other examples of this. By the way, you might want to check your references on where the Intel NUC design came from any why Intel put it out.

 

Like other companies, Intel has no trouble putting it's name on tech and ideas it purchases.

 

I will agree that Music sounds pretty much the same on two Windows machines, but not on all. Further, Windows and MacOS can and do sound very different to me on the *same machine* - such as a Mac Mini. That takes some thinking to understand.

 

And no, there is nothing magical or mystical about the reasons why they do sound different.

[plissken]

 

More like this: Mass stupidity enabled by a wild imagination about how things work.

 

[plissken]

The audio on the NUC units appears to be RealTek, and the reference implementation for that audio is not from Intel. There are other examples of this. By the way, you might want to check your references on where the Intel NUC design came from any why Intel put it out.

 

Like other companies, Intel has no trouble putting it's name on tech and ideas it purchases.

 

I will agree that Music sounds pretty much the same on two Windows machines, but not on all. Further, Windows and MacOS can and do sound very different to me on the *same machine* - such as a Mac Mini. That takes some thinking to understand.

 

And no, there is nothing magical or mystical about the reasons why they do sound different.

 

You are confused about who said what. I didn't mention the Intel NUC. What I said is that Intel and AMD create the reference designs.

 

Someone in response didn't think they(Intel) made mother boards. I simply provided a link to all of Intel's offerings. The poster is just simply ignorant of the fact that AMD and Intel are the ones that create the reference/best practices.

 

Again they have all the understanding about how to properly ground their CPUs, GPU's, SOC's etc...

 

Intel doesn't produce PCB assemblies. Just like Apple they contract it out. But it's still an Intel design. Besides this is off topic.

[jabbr]

Jon

The auto reply I received is not the same as the above, which you already know I agree with.

I am trying to see if Paul and myself have any common ground.

Regards

Alex

 

I am sure you and Paul have some common ground Let me start by noting that you have long been a proponent of linear power supplies, and the benefits of these are widely acknowledged for use in ADCs and DACs: This reference is a nice application note that details techniques for ADC design which improve accuracy: http://www.st.com/content/ccc/resource/technical/document/application_note/9d/56/66/74/4e/97/48/93/CD00004444.pdf/files/CD00004444.pdf/jcr:content/translations/en.CD00004444.pdf

 

And so techniques to improve signal integrity, and clean power, power plane design etc. are widely acknowledged to improve the accuracy of ADC and DAC. You have been advocating this for years.

 

Regarding ripping (your specific interest), as alfe mentions, there are ADC in the HDD readout, and of course in other storage drive circuitry. He clearly knows, but has supplied references -- anyone who questions this can read through his references if anyone is not inclined to take what he says at face value.

 

So your idea of using LPS during ripping and CD-R creation has strong merit from this point of view.

 

Where I sharply diverge, and hopefully this is not something that you have as much vested interest in, is that *copies* of these files are not irrevocably damaged or degraded in any way, shape or form. In fact I hold the position that any noise embedded in a substandard rip to HDD, will be entirely scrubbed by, for example, transmission over Ethernet ... and, without putting words in Paul's mouth, I think we both agree that buffering the music across the network whether SAN or fiberoptic Ethernet, are great ways to isolate noise from the DAC. In any case I like the way it sounds and use this personally for that reason (I have zero commercial interest in selling ethernet equipment). I also agree with Paul that vibration isolation provides substantial benefit and likewise employ Barry Diament's techniques.

 

So ... I think that if you stick to your claims made regarding the quality of the CD-R or USB rips that you make, I believe you, and think that there is an engineering/physic based explanation for your claims ... at the same time both Paul R and my own network setups are similar and I would push back strongly against claims that network transmission degrades music files.

[YashN]

Regarding ripping (your specific interest), as alfe mentions, there are ADC in the HDD readout, and of course in other storage drive circuitry. He clearly knows, but has supplied references -- anyone who questions this can read through his references if anyone is not inclined to take what he says at face value.

 

This was also mentioned by John S. way before Alfe.

 

Where I sharply diverge, and hopefully this is not something that you have as much vested interest in, is that *copies* of these files are not irrevocably damaged or degraded in any way, shape or form. In fact I hold the position that any noise embedded in a substandard rip to HDD, will be entirely scrubbed by, for example, transmission over Ethernet

 

Not a lot of divergence from Alex's mentioning time and time again that copies of the files or transmission can alter the effects. This is the same thing that happens with the 'Rewrite Data' software of the BugHead creator.

 

I also agree with Paul that vibration isolation provides substantial benefit and likewise employ Barry Diament's techniques.

 

Diament didn't invent these techniques.

 

So ... I think that if you stick to your claims made regarding the quality of the CD-R or USB rips that you make, I believe you, and think that there is an engineering/physic based explanation for your claims

 

Yep.

[sandyk]

You arrogantly took that bit of information and told other people I supported some of your unreasonable theories and wrong conclusions. Such as transmitting a file over the internet will in some mystical manner, degrade it.

 

Looks like you are still the same old lying and arrogant person that I no longer wished to work with, and judging by many of your recent replies to others, you are a ticking timebomb !

At no stage did I ever say you supported my findings about Zipping, TX and Un zipping losses in SQ.

Have you had your blood pressure checked recently ?

You still even arrogantly refuse to accept that your bog standard Mac Mini can also be markedly improved, as so many members and threads can testify.

 

I won't engage or support you on *any* audio topic any longer.

 

Is that a promise ?

[sandyk]

Originally Posted by jabbr View Post

 

Where I sharply diverge, and hopefully this is not something that you have as much vested interest in, is that *copies* of these files are not irrevocably damaged or degraded in any way, shape or form. In fact I hold the position that any noise embedded in a substandard rip to HDD, will be entirely scrubbed by, for example, transmission over Ethernet

 

Jon

That remains to be verified. For the vast majority of members, my statement is correct. I note also that you say transmission over Ethernet, NOT transmission over Internet where they are Zipped beforehand, and Unzipped again at the recipient's end.

You will already be aware of my recent findings in this area which MAY also be improved by the different method that you use, which is very different to what the vast majority of members are doing. However, as you are already aware I will not be discussing this further in this forum .

 

Regards

Alex

[Paul R]

Looks like you are still the same old lying and arrogant person that I no longer wished to work with, and judging by many of your recent replies to others, you are a ticking timebomb !

At no stage did I ever say you supported my findings about Zipping, TX and Un zipping losses in SQ.

Have you had your blood pressure checked recently ?

You still even arrogantly refuse to accept that your bog standard Mac Mini can also be markedly improved, as so many members and threads can testify.

 

 

 

Is that a promise ?

 

I guess I wasn't clear - I won't engage with you on any audio topic exactly because you are mentally unstable, and engage in just such rhetoric as this is in reply to.

 

I wonder if you even know who and where you shoot your mouth off to, and of the threats and lies that you write, not to mention the slander and raw undisguised hate?

 

Actually, I don't care either. I have tasted enough of your hateful, lying rhetoric to last several lifetimes. (Shrug)