Mystery revealed: UpTone Audio "UltraCap™ LPS-1"

[Cornan]

It is not a secret and have been discussed earlier in different threads that the actual power supply that feeds the LPS-1 will throw noise back into the AC mains as well. LPS-1 will most certainly be one of the most quiet power supply (if not the quietest) to the connected device...but other devices in the chain (than the device connected to LPS-1) will still be vulnerable to AC noises.

Personally I would be very interested to know how the LPS-1 turns out when powered by a battery supply that is disconnected from mains. Just my 2 cents.

[jtwrace]

As I remarked earlier in the thread, I wouldn't be surprised if the different makes of ultra-caps sounded a little different too.

 

Nope. There's only one thing in Ultracapacitors that could change the sonics but I'm not going there.

[Hailey]

Nope. There's only one thing in Ultracapacitors that could change the sonics but I'm not going there.

 

Why not?

[Jud]

Why not?

 

My supposition is to avoid unproductive argument.

 

In any case I'm guessing the particular ultracaps being used for Alex and John's design have long since been settled, so your choices in practicality are to go with what they've picked, or design and build your own.(!)

[jtwrace]

My supposition is to avoid unproductive argument.

 

Exactly!

[Distinctive]

Personally I would be very interested to know how the LPS-1 turns out when powered by a battery supply that is disconnected from mains. Just my 2 cents.

The answer to this would be the only thing that makes me still hang in there.....

[Jud]

It is not a secret and have been discussed earlier in different threads that the actual power supply that feeds the LPS-1 will throw noise back into the AC mains as well. LPS-1 will most certainly be one of the most quiet power supply (if not the quietest) to the connected device...but other devices in the chain (than the device connected to LPS-1) will still be vulnerable to AC noises.

 

Exactly. The idea is to lessen the influence of the supply that energizes the LPS-1 on the component the LPS-1 powers, but it's an electrical circuit, so it's impossible for the LPS-1 to eliminate the influence of the energizing supply back to the mains and from there through the rest of the system.

 

Personally I would be very interested to know how the LPS-1 turns out when powered by a battery supply that is disconnected from mains. Just my 2 cents.

 

Don't forget your system (I assume) has an amp, perhaps a pre-amp, a computer, perhaps other equipment connected to the mains, and as we said before this is all a circuit, so yes, the sources of noise you can eliminate are good, but it's difficult to capture *everything*.

[Distinctive]

the big deal about the LPS-1 is that it is COMPLETELY isolated from the mains. All power supplies (including expensive LPS designs) have what is called leakage current, this is between the AC main and its DC output. If you then connect another device (say a DAC or amplifier) to the AC main that leakage current will flow through the interconnections between them (USB cables, audio interconnects etc) and out to the mains through THAT boxes leakage current. That leakage current produces noise on the audio signal.

 

The LPS-1 breaks that loop thus getting rid of an insidious source of low level noise in almost all systems.

 

So yes it produces a very high quality, very low impedance, very low noise output, it is the isolation that is its reason for being.

 

John S.

Either I am word-blind or my language skills are bad.

This seems pretty clear to me.

[Cornan]

Either I am word-blind or my language skills are bad.

This seems pretty clear to me.

 

There is no end-game. Everything matters! I think this is a quite strong statement:

Then I swapped out the JS-2 for the infamous 7.5V MeanWell, it wasn't quite as good, better than the JS-2 without the LPS-1, but not quite as good as the JS-2 driving the LPS-1.

To me this means that I could use USB Regens supplied SMPS (which is collecting dust anyway) and buy the LPS-1 for USD395.- and still beat the USD925.- JS-2 in SQ. Pretty darn good in my personal perspective! Still, I am very curious what a 12v battery pack (single output) in combination with LPS-1 could do in SQ!

 

Edit: One more thing. Remember that the LPS-1 is still completely isolated from the mains....but the PSU that is charging the LPS-1 is not (if not using battery supply to charge while disconnected from mains that is).

[Dev]

 

Then I swapped out the JS-2 for the infamous 7.5V MeanWell, it wasn't quite as good, better than the JS-2 without the LPS-1, but not quite as good as the JS-2 driving the LPS-1. Who knows, it might be the infamous "SMPS" noise on the AC line getting into the power amp. Or not. But that supply was completely cold, it's getting a little better as it warms up.

 

So first ever impression of the LPS-1 is: WOW.

 

PS more listening to come over the next few days.

 

Wow, so you need a $1000 power supply for a $400 power supply to perform at its best. What a great marketing strategy to sell both the products :-)

[Dev]

To me this means that I could use USB Regens supplied SMPS (which is collecting dust anyway) and buy the LPS-1 for USD395.- and still beat the USD925.- JS-2 in SQ.

 

And you would keep wondering remaining part your life what if I bought a JS-2 and improve the performance of LPS-1 by couple of notches....Really, there is no end-game. everything matters :-)

[Superdad]

Wow, so you need a $1000 power supply for a $400 power supply to perform at its best. What a great marketing strategy to sell both the products :-)

 

Wow, a lot of cynicism and chatter generated from John's 2:00 a.m. post (after what I know was a very arduous day for him) of his quick initial listen to a groundbreaking product he has been working on for over a year.

I'll have more to say on these matters later (have to get kids off to school and greet one of my building subcontractors now). But seeing some of these comments is not the way I wanted to start my day.

 

--Alex C.

[Cornan]

Wow, so you need a $1000 power supply for a $400 power supply to perform at its best. What a great marketing strategy to sell both the products :-)

*Haha* You do not have to dig deep in your long time memory to see some "simularities" with the USB Regen. :-)

[adamaley]

Either I am word-blind or my language skills are bad.

This seems pretty clear to me.

 

The point here is that the JS-2 is many orders of magnitude better at not sending pollution back to your mains to affect the other components connected to that circuit, something the Meanwell apparently doesn't abide by. Like someone said - you definitely have amp/preamp/DAC/Regens/Decrapifiers/NAS/DPS/Realizers/Appetizers all connected to your mains circuit which will imbibe the gunk.

[Jud]

This is not true, the big deal about the LPS-1 is that it is COMPLETELY isolated from the mains. All power supplies (including expensive LPS designs) have what is called leakage current, this is between the AC main and its DC output. If you then connect another device (say a DAC or amplifier) to the AC main that leakage current will flow through the interconnections between them (USB cables, audio interconnects etc) and out to the mains through THAT boxes leakage current. That leakage current produces noise on the audio signal.

 

The LPS-1 breaks that loop thus getting rid of an insidious source of low level noise in almost all systems.

 

So yes it produces a very high quality, very low impedance, very low noise output, it is the isolation that is its reason for being.

 

John S.

 

Either I am word-blind or my language skills are bad.

This seems pretty clear to me.

 

John's coming from a place of greater knowledge than most of us, so it's understandable someone who's not familiar with every last way noise can come through the AC or ground side of a system (in which group I include myself) could read "breaks that loop thus getting rid of an insidious source of low level noise in almost all systems" (leakage current) as meaning it gets rid of all possible noise coming through AC/ground, but that's not what John said.

 

While not making the system perfect, what it does do seems as if it might be a very good thing.

[Hailey]

Wow, so you need a $1000 power supply for a $400 power supply to perform at its best. What a great marketing strategy to sell both the products :-)

 

The cynicism is understandable but as a (repeat) UpTone customer who has had a fair amount of direct contact with Alex Crespi, I can say that I've never dealt with a more upfront outfit. The UpTone folks are enthusiasts, and their enthusiasm comes through in everything they do, from the (truly outstanding) stuff they make to, yes, the stuff they post on CA.

 

Of course they want (and deserve) to sell product. But it's all very high-value, and sold at a price that never leaves me feeling like I've been had.

 

Bottom line: I trust them.

[d_elm]

What about using an SMPS fed by an AC-7 to power a LPS-1 ?

[firedog]

Well, Vinnie Rossi is offering to power the mR from the ultracap PS inside his LIO (you have to buy a LIO and add this as an option). That would probably give you about the cleanest source you could get for the mR, as you aren't adding any extra AC source or battery into the setup to power the mR.

[Dev]

Well, Vinnie Rossi is offering to power the mR from the ultracap PS inside his LIO (you have to buy a LIO and add this as an option). That would probably give you about the cleanest source you could get for the mR, as you aren't adding any extra AC source or battery into the setup to power the mR.

 

Vinnie Rossi said earlier in the microRendu thread that he is also going to offer a standalone version of the ultracap PS at some point.

[Jud]

What about using an SMPS fed by an AC-7 to power a LPS-1 ?

 

What's an AC-7?

[jtwrace]

Well, Vinnie Rossi is offering to power the mR from the ultracap PS inside his LIO (you have to buy a LIO and add this as an option). That would probably give you about the cleanest source you could get for the mR, as you aren't adding any extra AC source or battery into the setup to power the mR.

 

That's how I power my µRendu.

[d_elm]

What's an AC-7?

It is a power line filter. Put the SMPSs on this to cut noise put back onto the AC line.

 

http://www.arraysolutions.com/ac-7

[Superdad]

Well, Vinnie Rossi is offering to power the mR from the ultracap PS inside his LIO (you have to buy a LIO and add this as an option). That would probably give you about the cleanest source you could get for the mR, as you aren't adding any extra AC source or battery into the setup to power the mR.

 

Uh, well that would be applying a double standard to us. Like a $395 UltraCap LPS-1, the LIO's supercap power supply (and its $395 option for a single voltage output dedicated to the MicroRendu) is energized by an external SMPS brick.

How is this any different on the AC side?

 

 

And while anyone will be welcome to energize our UltraCap supply with some other unit they feel is more wall-benign (the wall and effect on other components is the only place such will matter as the output of the LPS-1 is 100% unaffected), one needs to remember that John's comment of a slight improvement was with the JS-2, which as far as we know is the ONLY power-factor-corrected LPS on the market. (Meaning that its PF is about 0.97, and that unlike other LPS units which draw current only during about half the waveform--PF about 0.5--thus injecting diode switching noise and harmonics back into the line.)

Our choke filter is what accomplishes that. So if we offered a 24V/5A JS-2, it would be an improvement for Vinnie Rossi LIO users as well.

 

Anyway, all this misses the point. The LPS-1 will sound fantastic and offer greater performance and cool technology in its current range than any other LPS on the market. Yes, the optionally omitted Mean Well brick puts a little back into the wall (and not everyone's system is sensitive to that), but so does every other SMPS and LPS on the market--except the JS-2.

 

Thems the breaks. And for people who think this is a ploy to sell more JS-2s, I got news for you: The JS-2 is a very time consuming product to built, test, stock parts for, etc. On a profit per hour basis the LPS-1 (and REGEN) smokes the JS-2 as a business growth product.

 

Lastly, you can read way upthread where John and I hinted at some plans for an inexpensive, hybrid, super-mains-quiet energizing supply for the LPS-1, as an add on for those who are allergic to having any SMPS plugged into their walls. It will kick back to the wall FAR less than other available LPS units--and its output will likely be clean/quiet enough for some non-critial components like Ethernet switches, drives, etc.--where just getting rid of SMPS high-frequency switching and excessive leakage currents is likely the reason some people hear benefits with a cheap linear on those. But I want that little hybrid to sell for about $100, and that is not easy to do anytime one has a power inlet, fuse, switch, voltage selector, transformer, case, PCB, and labor. Unless we can scale up to having 1000 units built in China, and even then…

 

So here are some pics:

 

The front/back panels.

 

 

 

 

The new production space we broke ground on at the beginning of May. A couple of months away from moving in.

 

 

 

[Jud]

And while anyone will be welcome to energize our UltraCap supply with some other unit they feel is more wall-benign (the wall and effect on other components is the only place such will matter as the output of the LPS-1 is 100% unaffected), one needs to remember that John's comment of a slight improvement was with the JS-2, which as far as we know is the ONLY power-factor-corrected LPS on the market. (Meaning that its PF is about 0.97, and that unlike other LPS units which draw current only during about half the waveform--PF about 0.5--thus injecting diode switching noise and harmonics back into the line.)

Our choke filter is what accomplishes that. So if we offered a 24V/5A JS-2, it would be an improvement for Vinnie Rossi LIO users as well.

 

***

 

Lastly, you can read way upthread where John and I hinted at some plans for an inexpensive, hybrid, super-mains-quiet energizing supply for the LPS-1, as an add on for those who are allergic to having any SMPS plugged into their walls. It will kick back to the wall FAR less than other available LPS units--and its output will likely be clean/quiet enough for some non-critial components like Ethernet switches, drives, etc.--where just getting rid of SMPS high-frequency switching and excessive leakage currents is likely the reason some people hear benefits with a cheap linear on those. But I want that little hybrid to sell for about $100, and that is not easy to do anytime one has a power inlet, fuse, switch, voltage selector, transformer, case, PCB, and labor.

 

I've got one of these old guys for PF correction, but for $100....

 

[jtwrace]

So if we offered a 24V/5A JS-2, it would be an improvement for Vinnie Rossi LIO users as well.

 

I totally disagree. Actual user.