iFi Retro

[pdvm]

Anyone seen or heard this yet?

 

Could only find one review yet:

High Fidelity

[RichB]

I have iFi Retro system sitting less than several feet away from me. Have not tried the headphone part or the phono preamp yet, but have done some streaming via Bluetooth (CD rips in apple loss-less on my iPad Air 2) and played some DSD via the Onkyo HF Player app from my iPhone 6+. Listening near-field to the speakers (using the partial/middle 3D and Xbass settings are working best so far in the pictured set-up - its a pretty open area with little boundary reinforcement near by), DSD tunes streamed from my iPhone were very musical and involving - more so than I expected from such a compact set-up. I easily got lost/involved listening to Stevie Ray Vaughn's Tin Pan Alley - it just did a really nice job of conveying the emotion and nuances of the SRV's playing.

 

I do only have maybe 8 or 10 hours on it so far, so got some further break-in to go through. So far, so good though. Need to make some more room in my office area where I have this set-up and dig up a pair of stands so I can get the speakers set-up better. BTW, fit and finish on the system, right down to the packaging is really very, very good. The only little thing that bugs me is that the print/writing on the faceplate could be darker (i.e. black) which would be easier to read.

 

P.S. Disclosure: In case its not obvious, I am a iFi Audio dealer.

 

 

 

[rickyleelee]

Anyone seen or heard this yet?

 

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Could only find one review yet:

High Fidelity

 

 

A nice review here from positive feedback.com which came from hifi choice. even made the cover. am pretty sure the reviewer did work for 6moons too. have made the deposit on one and will get it in the next week or three.

 

 

[christopher3393]

I'm following a Headfi thread on the Retro, but would love to read any updated listening experiences here. Also interested in how much heat the tubes are creating.

[john57]

I'm following a Headfi thread on the Retro, but would love to read any updated listening experiences here. Also interested in how much heat the tubes are creating.

 

I just received mine just the amp only. The top metal grill does get quite hot. However there is quite a bit of air circulation from the bottom grill and the sides as well. I decided that I wanted to choose my own speakers and I choose the Klipsch RB-51.

 

Here is an internal picture from the service manual

 

 

Without the audio output transformers, front board and cage.

[john57]

Here is another picture with just the top cover removed

 

 

As you can see a well ventilated layout

[christopher3393]

Thanks john57. Looking forward to any listening impressions you care to share.

[Paul R]

Here is another picture with just the top cover removed

 

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As you can see a well ventilated layout

 

Six big old honking tubes? Yipes!

 

-Paul

[RichB]

 

Ours sits in a pretty open area... the large metal vent on top does get pretty warm though not so hot that I can't keep my hand on it, rest of the enclosure is only a bit warm to the touch.

 

BTW, I'm finding the Retro's phono preamp is pretty nice too! Been spinning some LPs today on a Rega RP1 hooked up to it... its making for a nice combination.

 

The whole set-up is sounding much more spacious now that I have the speakers on stands and further apart. Still using a bit of the Xbass boost to give the bottom end some more bloom. The set-up is very musical... can listen to it for hours without tiring of it. I imagine with some efficient speakers like John57 is using, the little amp could probably rock out to a better degree than with the iFi Retro speakers, but they are nice all round performers for a small speaker... better than the Audio Engine A5's I have sitting right on my desk.

 

Paul - yes tubes! :-) Though I certainly wouldn't call EL84's big honking tubes! :-)

[pdvm]

I used to listen to headphones a lot, and, when around my parents place, hook my laptop my dad's system (Audiolab 8000s + Infinity Alpha 40 speakers). Then I finished my studies and started to earn some money myself. I discovered this website, ripped my (and my dad's) CD's again, bought an iFi iDSD Nano, started playing through A+, HQPlayer, upgraded my headphone... Et voila, in no-time I found myself wanting to have a decent speaker system of my own. Which is around the time iFi announced the Retro system. When I started this thread, I think I had subconsciously already decided that I wanted it. Just couldn't resist.

 

 

Since 3 weeks I own the Stereo 50 (the amp part of the set). I sent the speakers back, not because they are not good (in fact, they provided the most finely detailed sound I've heard from speakers so far), but they didn't satisfy completely in the bottom end, because I like to rock a bit more, with a bit more bass in the 'big orchestral' sound. The amp itself sounds wonderfull, with the iFi speakers especially but with my B&W CM1-S2's as well (though they are less efficient.. luckily my room is not that big). Hours of listening without a hint of fatigue. As RichB said above, very musical!

 

And the headphone part sounds very good, as far as I can tell (read: clearly an upgrade when compared to the Nano). I actually use the small 3.5mm jack for my Sennheiser HD700's because the big jack has too much power for them.

 

It has a very very nice form factor, it plays everything, connects with every source possible through every sort of connection possible... I like it a lot!

 

 

Note that the ancient panasonic boxes serve as stands to get the tweeters of the B&W's at ear level

 

As I'm probably moving to a bigger place soon, I'm experimenting with other speakers. You can say I'm on the hunt for high-efficiency speakers that will fill a room with 'big' but detailed sound when paired with the Stereo 50. I brought the amp to my local dealer and tried out several floorstanding speakers, of which the Focal Chorus 714's impressed me the most. They had a very nice detailed sound when compared to other speakers, 'disappearing' more than the others. They were easily driven by the iFi amp in the 20 m2 listening room. Didn't decide on buying them yet though, as I would like some advise first. Does anyone have other suggestions for good sounding high-efficiency speakers that could be paired with an amp like this? Price range: 1000 to max 1500 euro's for a pair.

 

I know that it is probably working the wrong way around: buying an amp first and then find speakers to match them, but this amp is so much fun I'd like to try.

[4est]

lol... I find it disconcerting that they are attempting to get 25 watts out of a pair of 6bq5/el84. The higher plate voltage is likely to be hard on tubes.

 

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Paul - yes tubes! :-) Though I certainly wouldn't call EL84's big honking tubes! :-)

[john57]

lol... I find it disconcerting that they are attempting to get 25 watts out of a pair of 6bq5/el84. The higher plate voltage is likely to be hard on tubes.

 

They are not using the standard EL84 tubes. They are using an enhanced military version that can handle higher plate voltages up to 500v with longer tube life. There is a jumper on the motherboard right next to the power tubes that you can remove to use the standard EL84 tubes.

 

There is the question that I ask to IFI:

 

Originally Posted by john57

I tried to find some information about the EL84X tube and how it different from the standard EL84 tube. I am unable to find much. I am just a bit curious where did IFI found the EL84x tube?

 

 

Hi,

 

We found the EL84X from testing/measuring/auditioning tubes - as our passion is vinyl, SET and full-range speakers. Just like how we came across the GE5670 premium family compared to the generic family of 6922s.

 

The EL84X is an almost equivalent to the EL84, mainly with higher ratings and with a somewhat better sound quality (at least in the Stereo 50 ), compared to other current production EL84 tubes.

 

 

The sonic qualities of this particular brand/model of tube is down to the electrical parameters...for example, the peak cathode emission is higher than standard EL84, so higher peak current can be sustained. There are many other small aspects that make it in our book better than the rest.

 

In some EL84 amplifiers it can be just dropped in without changes, in some it does not. The Stereo 50 was designed to allow either tube (but please wait until the warranty has expired before rolling tubes).

 

For obvious reasons we scour the markets for tubes that are available in large quantities that offer good sound quality. This how we found this one. It is a military tube, not advertised or specified for audio use.

 

In practice it makes a swell "super EL84", hence the EL84X moniker

 

For obvious reasons we prefer not to disclose the precise Tube number. Replacements are available from iFi and will be so for a long time, generic EL84s are fully-compatible with the Stereo 50 and who knows, sooner or later some factory may very well make an EL84 that sounds better than our EL84X.

 

Cheers.

[john57]

I also broke this rule. My reasoning was I wanted the amp first and find the great speakers for it with just 25 watts at the most per channel. Klipsch is the first thing that came in mind for high efficiency speakers that can play loud and able to handle the wide dynamic range of symphonic music like Mahler 8 for example. 30 years ago I heard the Klipschorn but did not think much about them at the time. This time I decided to get the Klipsch RB-51 II which is actually the fifth generation. It uses the 90° by 60° Tractrix® Horn while the sixth version, the new Reference Premiere line uses the 90 by 90 horn which have better horizontal dispersion for a wider sweet spot. However since my RB-51 II is rather close together just under 3 feet I still get good channel separation with the more direct limited dispersion of the horn. The woofer is what Klipsch calls Cerametallic which is aluminum infused with a ceramic layer. It looks copper but it is aluminum. The edges of the woofer are folded a bit to make it more stiff. This helps to make sure that the edges of the woofer all the way around to move as one. The bass is one of the cleanest I ever heard in a 5 inch woofer. The bass drum just vibrate my 300lb desk with the lowly 50 watt Retro. The -3db of the woofer is at 45Hz and that feels about right in my setup. The highs are very crisp, clean and very dynamic for movies and the tubes in the Retro gives music its passion and sweetness. The only reason I did not get the sixth version, the Reference Premiere is that it was double the cost since Klipsch is closing out the Reference II line to make room for the Reference Premiere line. I quite contented with the Klipsch Reference II version and it is my very first Klipsch speakers which I am planning to keep for a long time. This speaker is far ahead of what I heard from Klipsch 30 years ago.

[Norton]

I also broke this rule. My reasoning was I wanted the amp first and find the great speakers for it with just 25 watts at the most per channel. Klipsch is the first thing that came in mind for high efficiency speakers that can play loud and able to handle the wide dynamic range of symphonic music like Mahler 8 for example. 30 years ago I heard the Klipschorn but did not think much about them at the time. This time I decided to get the Klipsch RB-51 II which is actually the fifth generation. It uses the 90° by 60° Tractrix® Horn while the sixth version, the new Reference Premiere line uses the 90 by 90 horn which have better horizontal dispersion for a wider sweet spot. However since my RB-51 II is rather close together just under 3 feet I still get good channel separation with the more direct limited dispersion of the horn. The woofer is what Klipsch calls Cerametallic which is aluminum infused with a ceramic layer. It looks copper but it is aluminum. The edges of the woofer are folded a bit to make it more stiff. This helps to make sure that the edges of the woofer all the way around to move as one. The bass is one of the cleanest I ever heard in a 5 inch woofer. The bass drum just vibrate my 300lb desk with the lowly 50 watt Retro. The -3db of the woofer is at 45Hz and that feels about right in my setup. The highs are very crisp, clean and very dynamic for movies and the tubes in the Retro gives music its passion and sweetness. The only reason I did not get the sixth version, the Reference Premiere is that it was double the cost since Klipsch is closing out the Reference II line to make room for the Reference Premiere line. I quite contented with the Klipsch Reference II version and it is my very first Klipsch speakers which I am planning to keep for a long time. This speaker is far ahead of what I heard from Klipsch 30 years ago.

 

I was just thinking that a pair of Heresy III in Walnut might be a good sonic and visual match for the iFi unit.

[john57]

I would think that Cherry would be a closer match to the lighter bamboo wood color of the Retro. Another advantage of the Klipsch is that the bigger the speaker the more efficient they are. For the Heresy III it is: sensitivity : 99dB @ 1watt/1meter. Here is a review of the Heresy III from another user:

 

I've had my Klipsch Heresys for over 30 years connected to my McIntosh system (MR78 tuner, 150 watt amp, and pre-amp, Denon turntable, Nakamichi tape deck, etc. These perform flawlessly and only take about 1.5 watts to drive you out of the room. Records, CDs, tapes all sound great. I also have LaScalas in my airplane hangar hooked to a 160 watt Kenwood 9600 receiver...2-3 watts going to those and you can hear them all over the airport.

 

You can check out the Klipsch tower line as well. Plenty of reviews on Amazon as well.

[pdvm]

This time I decided to get the Klipsch RB-51 II which is actually the fifth generation. It uses the 90° by 60° Tractrix® Horn while the sixth version, the new Reference Premiere line uses the 90 by 90 horn which have better horizontal dispersion for a wider sweet spot. However since my RB-51 II is rather close together just under 3 feet I still get good channel separation with the more direct limited dispersion of the horn. The woofer is what Klipsch calls Cerametallic which is aluminum infused with a ceramic layer. It looks copper but it is aluminum. The edges of the woofer are folded a bit to make it more stiff. This helps to make sure that the edges of the woofer all the way around to move as one. The bass is one of the cleanest I ever heard in a 5 inch woofer. The bass drum just vibrate my 300lb desk with the lowly 50 watt Retro. The -3db of the woofer is at 45Hz and that feels about right in my setup. The highs are very crisp, clean and very dynamic for movies and the tubes in the Retro gives music its passion and sweetness. The only reason I did not get the sixth version, the Reference Premiere is that it was double the cost since Klipsch is closing out the Reference II line to make room for the Reference Premiere line. I quite contented with the Klipsch Reference II version and it is my very first Klipsch speakers which I am planning to keep for a long time. This speaker is far ahead of what I heard from Klipsch 30 years ago.

 

Of course the sensitivity of the Klipsch speakers is attractive. How do you like them for orchestral music? I read a lot of times that Klipsch speakers from the last 15 years or so have a lot of bass and harsh treble, but not much good stuff in between (but maybe this changed with the more recent models?). What other speakers did you have and how do like the Klipsch compared to them?

[firedog]

The Devore O93 and O96 would probably work well with this amp - they're designed for use with relatively low powered tube amps. I dare say they probably sound a lot better than anything from Klipsch (for a price) - but that's just my taste.

[john57]

The Devore O93 I noticed runs about $8,400 vs my Klipsch RB-51 II which cost me $250. The Devore may sound better if its sound signature appeals to you. I needed something smaller not another floor type of speakers. My main speaker is the Sound Labs electrostatic which is even bigger than the previous Magnepan speakers I used to have.

[pdvm]

Also looking at the Focal Chorus 807 speakers. They got great reviews and have sensitivity of 92 dB/2.83V/1m. Anybody have experience with these?

[john57]

Also looking at the Focal Chorus 807 speakers. They got great reviews and have sensitivity of 92 dB/2.83V/1m. Anybody have experience with these?

 

While I have not hear them a few things do stand out about them during some research. The inverted dome tweeter is on the brighter side of things according to user reviews and graphs and the woofer has a bit more of a mid-bass hump. Otherwise they have good reviews.

 

The trick with bookshelf speakers is not to put them on bookshelves but on stands or use the tower version. In my case the RB-51 II is on the edge of the hunch just above the desk slight pointed downward so there is no desk or shelf boundary that can muddy up the bass. Sitting next to the Klipsch RB-51 II is my Emotiva Airmotiv 6 being driven by my Oppo HA-1. The Emotiva folded ribbon tweeter has better coverage but the woofer on the Klipsch RB-51 II is very clean and tight and well damped.

[Liam]

In the last few days I updated my Retro 50 firmware to Gelato v5.1 I'm absolutely blown away by the improvement to sound quality. I was happy with the sound before, but firmware version 5.1 elevates the Retro into a much higher fidelity category. Much has been said in praise of the sound quality of the Retro 50 by owners and Reviewers, but really this is an order of magnitude better in my opinion.

 

The clarity is incredible, like a haze I didn't know was there has been removed. The result is that sounds are just 'there', if you know what I mean. Going with that are soundstage improvements, and stereo imagery is very much improved. Rhythm is precise, without being etched and the sound just flows in a captivating toe tapping way. Listening to Guy Lombardo and his Royal Canadians is better than ever. The improvements don't stop at the aforementioned. Musicality, in terms of tonality generally, has taken a big leap across the board.

 

The upgrade was completely straight forward on my Mac Mini 2011 OS 10.6.8. As always follow the instructions provided here

micro iDSD – Firmware | iFi Audio

and here

Steps: Firmware Upgrade | iFi Audio

 

Having clicked on the 'Firmware Updater Program' I saw no progress bar for the uploading of the update and I wondered if it had actually commenced loading. I waited though for a very short time and up popped the complete confirmation.

[Blake]

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The whole set-up is sounding much more spacious now that I have the speakers on stands and further apart.

 

Rich, as a dealer, you don't need advice from me and your speaker placement is likely out of necessity due to limited on space, but the placement of the right speaker... yikes! It makes me cringe.

 

I can't fathom how you are getting "spacious" sound from that placement.

[RichB]

Rich, as a dealer, you don't need advice from me and your speaker placement is likely out of necessity due to limited on space, but the placement of the right speaker... yikes! It makes me cringe.

 

I can't fathom how you are getting "spacious" sound from that placement.

 

I'm thinking you mean the left speaker as in pic shows the poor LS3.5 socked in a corner! :-( Well anyway, when I was playing around with the system at one point I had the stands/speakers out in front of the cubes and closer together which is certainly a heck better sounding than what the pic shows (and gave me a good idea of the system's capabilities/sound). Problem was the speakers where very much in the way when placed out there given the limited space in my office area. So for casual use, the set-up as shown in the pic winds up being OK (as it is my office chair position does not help either). I don't have the system playing that often though... too distracting! (and hard to talk to customers on the phone with it playing or focus on writing a e-mail or a forum post! :-D ). It interesting to note that while I can easily tune out talk radio (usually have NPR programming on in my office during the day), it's much harder for me to do that with music.

 

Cheers,

[Blake]

I'm thinking you mean the left speaker as in pic shows the poor LS3.5 socked in a corner! :-(

Cheers,

 

Oops, yes, sorry, I intended to refer to the left speaker. I may be a bit more sensitive because I just auditioned some speakers at a dealer and one of the speakers was stuck in a corner. It is amazing how much better they sounded pulled away from the front and side walls.

[maelob]

On the plus side, IFi designed the speaker to perform well in those kind of locations closer to walls and in real bookshelves. Please see below from IFI

 

Stand and Deliver?

There is a common Audiophile misconception, that speakers MUST be on stands. Some do benefit, but is not a cast-iron requirement. The problem is that common 'Audiophile' speakers are designed according to a set of ideals that are usually either misconscrued or misunderstood, if our goal is to reproduce the recording well.

 

Common are the ideals of the 'pulsating sphere' or the 'pulsating hemisphere'. Neither will produce good results unless placed far out in the room on stands, because such speakers maximise interaction with the environment, causing the performance in the bass and midrange to be extremely room dependent.

 

There is a reason why most large format true studio monitors are designed for soffit mounting (meaning flush in a wall) and have quite directional midrange and high frequency systems. Mounted correctly they present a very neutral tonal balance and killer imaging (kind of 'and the walls disappeared and the sea parted') in ways few audiophile systems ever manage. Of course, Studios are also acoustically-treated, on top of this. However, often less treatment is applied than most imagine.

 

 

 

The iFi Retro LS-3.5 was designed with both an understanding of serious studio monitoring and home replay of music. It was designed to be used exactly like shown, as we imagined that most customers would place it like this, where they have a comparably modest (negative) visual impact on the room. And the WAF factor is best.

 

Most 'Audiophile' speakers based on 'close to a pulsating sphere/hemisphere' approach invariably must be placed where the visual impact is most negative, often almost in the centre of the room1(and the WAF factor is worst!).

 

 

 

This is direct result of the design of these speakers with an intentional (if extremely ill advised) wide directivity. Placement free from room surfaces is essential to avoid early reflections and to avoid an excessive thickening of the bass and lower mids (male voices become overly plummy). As an added result of this type of design/tuning/placement the speaker's efficiency is usually quite low, meaning smaller designs placed thus struggle to play loud and clean.

 

An alternative method to controling early reflections in the midrange and treble is to improve the directivity (make the speaker approach more a 'spotlight'), which is what is done in the LS-3.5 and also in large format studio monitors. Equally, the midrange and LF balance are ideally-suited for literal placement as 'bookshelf speakers' ideally surrounded by books (this simulates for low frequencies soffit mounting).

 

Placing the LS-3.5 out in the open will mean they will sound thin, in which case the use of X-Bass switch is essential to avoid this. The X-Bass system is actually tuned to compensate for semi-open (one dot) or free on stand (three dot) placement of the LS-3.5 or for similar speaker designs (generally ones that otherwise perfer to dwell near walls).

 

In addition, again contrary to audiophile practice, we have designed the speaker to have a flat frequency response not on the direct axis, which means that the speakers must be toe'd in and directed towards the listener to avoid sounding dull. Instead the flat response is realised on the 30 degrees off-axis position, meaning the speakers should be pointed straight ahead, not toe'd in.

 

You might say that with LS-3.5 we took as one of the starting points the way 'normal people' would place a HiFi system and speakers and then set out to deliver a serious audiophile performance from the speakers. How well we have suceeded? Do listen for yourself and let us know.

 

As it stands in our chief designer's open plan living room (with an open Galley style kitchen) the Retro Stereo 50, a pair of LS-3.52 in a large space of over 45sqm (144cubic foot) with great sound, loud enough to annoy neighbours and for any music listening this side of head banging heavy metal at live concert levels. Elevating the speakers some more may be good, however even as is, the image height is pretty good (never mind width and depth) and the vertical listening window (even standing up) is good. Of course, don't try this at home with common 'audiophile' speaker designs.