Schiit Wyrd USB "Decrappifier"

[gmgraves]

Another alternative to the Decrappifier, iFi iUSB and multiple potentially expensive usb cables:

 

Buy a TotalDac D1 usb cable and call it a day.

 

I have the iUSB by iFI and it is (at least in my system), indistinguishable from the Schitt Wyrd in terms of SQ. I also have the iFI i-Link USB to SPDIF converter as well as the Gemini Cable. I find that the iUSB works great, but the combination of the iUSB, i-Link, and Gemini is unreliable. When it works, it sounds great, but most of the time the audio signal does not make it to the i-Link from the iUSB and when it does, it often motorboats, so I gave up on the combo and just use the iUSB with my DragonFly v.1.2.

[gmgraves]

George:

That is simply not true. Please reread my post above and take a careful look at the Wyrd's PCB. While it is true that the Wyrd (and my own forthcoming "USB Regen") do give extra benefit to DACs that do use USB power (it is a no brainer since we are already taking in an outside PS line and making clean power for the chip--might as well pass that along on the USB cable), the primary function is as a single-port "audiophile USB hub." The USB signal is completely regenerated with the hub chip and clock.

 

Do feel free to ask any other questions about how these work.

 

Best,

--Alex C.

 

 

All I'm talking about is the Wyrd (or the iUSB) as a replacement power supply for the often very dirty computer-supplied USB5V. I wasn't discussing it's use as a re-clocking device or any other brand USB power supplies (especially devices that I know nothing about such as your USB Regen).

[Glisse]

Hi Glisse,

 

On another thread I mentioned MSB's new renderer LAN input module that looks intriguing. Perhaps something to look into. Bypass USB and perhaps SPDIF completely with this thing.

 

Thanks Tranz, I do remember seeing that, but forgot to check. I've just had a look at it, and it appears they have only done the module for the Analog DAC so far, but I am sure the Platinum IV version is not far away. I did find their comparison feature chart on the weird side, though. Weird is not unusual with MSB, however. I mean, they are comparing their ethernet input module with complete devices such as the Beast and Linn Klimax DS (and at a price of $4,200, I recommend everyone buy two...).

 

Also, no MSB DAC can handle DSD256. And to do so would, I expect, require a hardware change, not a software update.

 

In fact, my MSB DAC doesn't seem phased by the very high residual ground current coming from the Mac Mini, but I didn't like it. i did get an Auralic Aries which is much, much quieter (in an electrical sense) than the Mac.

 

In hindsight, the Wyrd was not the right tool for the job, as the 5V power supply carried on the USB cable was not my issue.

[Glisse]

Glisse: Do you really own all the gear listed in your profile? It looks like almost $1 million worth! Wow. I hope you have many rooms for it all.

 

--Alex C.

 

Indeed I do own it all, Alex. Your estimate is a long way out though, thank goodness. There are many good products out there, and I have lived in quite a few different countries, which means I tend to buy products locally. By example, I bought my Accuphase components when I lived in Japan, and the prices are half compared to other markets. I have either music systems, or musical instruments in almost every room where I live. I couldn't imagine a life without music

[Superdad]

All I'm talking about is the Wyrd (or the iUSB) as a replacement power supply for the often very dirty computer-supplied USB5V. I wasn't discussing it's use as a re-clocking device or any other brand USB power supplies (especially devices that I know nothing about such as your USB Regen).

 

Okay George, but you keep misrepresenting the purpose of the Wyrd when you say things like:

 

Isn't the MSB self powered (I.E., doesn't it plug into the wall?). If so, the Schiit Wyrd wouldn't do anything because the MSB doesn't use the 5V power from the computer's USB anyway AT ALL. So, not only do devices like that have no function in that application, but they aren't even in the circuit!

 

The device IS in the circuit!

 

and like this:

 

All the de-crappifier does (AFAICS) is to discard the 5V USB power coming from the source computer, and replace it with a squeaky clean 5 V that the Wyrd de-crappifier itself produces from the AC mains. I don't think it does any purification of the clocking. The difference one will hear depends upon how good the regulators are in the USB DAC that one is using (and, of course, the quality of the 5 V produced by the computer). For instance, it might help the sound of one of those "dongle" DACs or any other device (such as a M-F V-Link) a lot, but probably wouldn't help something like the Ayre Acoustic QB-9 at all (it's not POWERED by the computer's USB bus).

 

Yes, both the Wyrd and my forthcoming device happen to provide cleaner 5VBUS power to those DAC that need it. But that is not the primary purpose of the design. Regeneration of a better USB signal is their purpose. If we just wanted to offer clean 5VBUS, then we would just do so with a decent 5V PS and a cable that looks like this:

 

The impetus, at least for us (I won't speak for Schiit) was to both improve the quality of the USB signal being given to the DAC, and to lessen the effect--on final SQ-- that the USB cable between the computer and the regenerator has. In my tests, our device is narrowing the SQ gap between a fancy USB cable and a generic one. We are not offering galvanic isolation, so we can not fully eliminate all upstream cable and signal effects.

[Glisse]

Isn't the MSB self powered (I.E., doesn't it plug into the wall?). If so, the Schiit Wyrd wouldn't do anything because the MSB doesn't use the 5V power from the computer's USB anyway AT ALL. So, not only do devices like that have no function in that application, but they aren't even in the circuit!

 

George, many DACs, and USB converters which are self powered still use the 5V power on the USB connection to either act as a trigger or to power the USB transceiver. I would also suggest that when a cable is galvanically connected from component A to component B, both components and the cable are in the circuit. Regardless of whether there is a 5V power connection or not.

 

My own anecdotal experience is that performance issues with USB sources to DACs is less about the quality of the 5V power signal, and much more to do with the transmission of ground noise from the USB source to the DAC. But such things will vary dramatically from system to system, and house to house.

 

But your underlying point, that the intent of the Wyrd is to provide a robust and clean 5V signal is completely valid. And I chose the wrong tool for the job.

[tranz]

Yes, no S/PDIF involved with MSB's network renderer module. See details here: Network Product Comparisons

Requires DLNA server/controller/renderer s/w configuration. $2K upgrade for their DACs. Looks like this:

 

Hi Alex,

 

Thanks. Where did you get confirmation it bypassed SPDIF, as I could not find that anywhere and I did not want to assume even if it seems logical.

[Blake]

My own anecdotal experience is that performance issues with USB sources to DACs is less about the quality of the 5V power signal, and much more to do with the transmission of ground noise from the USB source to the DAC.

 

This is my experience as well.

[Glisse]

Another alternative to the Decrappifier, iFi iUSB and multiple potentially expensive usb cables:

 

Buy a TotalDac D1 usb cable and call it a day.

 

Sound advice - I think Vincent has underpriced it, and did so on the basis of a service to his DAC customers. He is possibly regretting that now

[Jud]

 

The impetus, at least for us (I won't speak for Schiit) was to both improve the quality of the USB signal being given to the DAC, and to lessen the effect--on final SQ-- that the USB cable between the computer and the regenerator has. In my tests, our device is narrowing the SQ gap between a fancy USB cable and a generic one. We are not offering galvanic isolation, so we can not fully eliminate all upstream cable and signal effects.

 

So what, if anything, is the difference in the effect of the Wyrd or your forthcoming product if the DAC, as mine does, has "snubber" circuits on the transformer secondaries?

[Superdad]

I would also suggest that when a cable is galvanically connected from component A to component B, both components and the cable are in the circuit. Regardless of whether there is a 5V power connection or not.

My own anecdotal experience is that performance issues with USB sources to DACs is less about the quality of the 5V power signal, and much more to do with the transmission of ground noise from the USB source to the DAC.

 

Indeed, ground plane noise (whether heard or not) is one of the most pernicious factors limiting the performance of any DAC. Once it gets in, it can sail past almost every type of isolation and reclocking and make its way to the master clock. See John Swenson's detailed accounting of this at: Q&A with John Swenson. Part 2: Are Bits Just Bits? | AudioStream

 

And true galvanic isolation is difficult and expensive to do with USB. (We had some discussion of it on another thread here recently.)

 

But don't give up.

[Superdad]

So what, if anything, is the difference in the effect of the Wyrd or your forthcoming product if the DAC, as mine does, has "snubber" circuits on the transformer secondaries?

 

Different end of the beast Jud! The RC network on your transformer secondaries only serves to damp the typical 300kHz-700kHz resonance/ringing range of the PS transformer, and also the range where non-Schottky diodes generate current pulses. The RC helps to keep that from getting kicked back into the primary side and the mains.

 

The Wyrd, and especially our USB Regen are about producing a really good USB data signal for the DAC--right at the DAC's inputs. For us at least, the clean power supply is just part of what it takes to do that. Think of like what SoTM and Adnaco/JCAT go through with their PCIe USB cards: good clocks, PS isolation, etc. Only we want to do that right at the DAC.

[Superdad]

Where did you get confirmation it bypassed SPDIF, as I could not find that anywhere and I did not want to assume even if it seems logical.

 

Oh, there is no way on earth that Dustin at MSB would EVER make a plug-in module that would output S/PDIF into his DAC. There would be no possible reason to do so, and every reason to not do so. (More clocks, more muxing, jitter galore)

Just like with any USB input, MSB's Ethernet renderer module is outputing I2S (or in clever Dustin's case, maybe something better) to feed the rest of their DAC.

[tranz]

Thanks Tranz, I do remember seeing that, but forgot to check. I've just had a look at it, and it appears they have only done the module for the Analog DAC so far, but I am sure the Platinum IV version is not far away. I did find their comparison feature chart on the weird side, though. Weird is not unusual with MSB, however. I mean, they are comparing their ethernet input module with complete devices such as the Beast and Linn Klimax DS (and at a price of $4,200, I recommend everyone buy two...).

 

Also, no MSB DAC can handle DSD256. And to do so would, I expect, require a hardware change, not a software update.

 

In fact, my MSB DAC doesn't seem phased by the very high residual ground current coming from the Mac Mini, but I didn't like it. i did get an Auralic Aries which is much, much quieter (in an electrical sense) than the Mac.

 

In hindsight, the Wyrd was not the right tool for the job, as the 5V power supply carried on the USB cable was not my issue.

 

Hi Glisse,

 

Sorry, I thought all the modules were interchangeable with all the later MSB DACs. It is interesting about DSD though, as they are advertising even native quad-DSD is now possible.

 

The USB input of MSB I did not like and it does use the 5V to power the USB receiver chip. But I see that they now also have a new version of the USB input.

 

Perhaps unrelated, and mentioned already, but I taped the ground pin at the computer side of the USB plug which helped a lot. However, I am using IFI USB Power with an LPSU to feed 5v and the Gemini cable which in addition cuts the drain wire shield of the USB.

 

Cheers

[tranz]

Isn't the MSB self powered (I.E., doesn't it plug into the wall?). If so, the Schiit Wyrd wouldn't do anything because the MSB doesn't use the 5V power from the computer's USB anyway AT ALL. So, not only do devices like that have no function in that application, but they aren't even in the circuit!

 

Hi George,

 

It does use the 5v to power the USB receiver.

[One and a half]

This thread has turned around for the better discussing anything but the Wyrd.

 

Full Marks to Superdad to create a device where another cable is not required. This is really important, noticable and it adds $$ again when it's not really needed.

 

We are not going to see galvanic isolation unless something else other than USB or ancient S/PDIF is used as the front end of a DAC. Note have not included Ethernet, since there is still a requirement on the server side to find, sort, edit and play properly to begin with, that seems to be a very real limitation.

[Superdad]

We are not going to see galvanic isolation unless something else other than USB...

 

Just to be clear Gary, galvanic isolation COULD be done right on USB (though I have not yet seen anybody do so; usually if a DAC has an isolated ground plane between stages it happens pretty far in). John sketched out for me how he could do a true in-line galvanic USB isolator, but when I saw all the parts (2 PHYs, an FPGA, expensive isolators, a clock, 2 power supplies) and we spoke about the development and programming time, it just did not make sense at this point. We would rather put the effort into more exciting designs (like the long gestating USB>Ethernet Audio Bridge).

[Raym87]

Schiit Wyrd. I got one and I like it. Difficult to quantify the improvement but the music just seems to hang together instead of individual instruments/musicians fighting for their own space.

[Allan F]

Just to be clear Gary, galvanic isolation COULD be done right on USB (though I have not yet seen anybody do so; usually if a DAC has an isolated ground plane between stages it happens pretty far in).

 

FWIW, George Klissarov of exaSound is reputed to do a pretty good job in this regard. I can't speak from personal experience.

[Superdad]

FWIW, George Klissarov of exaSound is reputed to do a pretty good job in this regard. I can't speak from personal experience.

 

Having looked closely at the e28 PCB, I can tell you that he places the isolators AFTER the FPGA (the same one that runs the filters and everything else), just before the ESS DAC chip (though kind of far from it). That's fine and pretty standard, but not quite what we think of when we talk about the USB input being galvanically isolated.

 

[cjf]

I frequently wonder when a Fiber SFP connection will be universally used on the Input side for the DAC connection instead of USB, SPDIF and Ethernet. Such a connection would go a long way in eliminating most of the concerns with power induced noise in computer audio. These connections are used all the time in non audio related computer connectivity so the technology is there.

 

I think the only thing lacking from what I have seen is software capable of using a fiber connection on the media server side. One could use an available PCI Slot on the computer side to install such a card but I haven't seen any music library related software capable of sending data out thru a fiber connection yet.

[jcwc]

My own anecdotal experience is that performance issues with USB sources to DACs is less about the quality of the 5V power signal, and much more to do with the transmission of ground noise from the USB source to the DAC.

 

In relation to the matter of "transmission of ground noise from the USB source to the DAC", is galvanic isolation the only way to stop this?

 

Would you know if the Wyrd or ifi USB stops such ground noise?

[jcwc]

We are not going to see galvanic isolation unless something else other than USB or ancient S/PDIF is used as the front end of a DAC.

 

I've heard some people say that this thingy does galvanic isolation: https://www.olimex.com/Products/USB-Modules/USB-ISO/

 

I don't know myself, but do you know if it does from reading all the info?

[jcwc]

John Swenson and I have been working on a similar product (since before the Wyrd was announced)--with the same SMSC hub chip even. But we use much better regulators, a better clock, proper impedance matching with a 4-layer board--and especially key is that it is tiny enough to not need a USB cable on the output, it plugs into the DAC with just a male>male A>B adapter.

 

I still applaud them for bringing out the Wyrd. I can't put schiit in a box to sell for $99 and make any money. Those guys have my respect for all of what they do!

 

Oh, here is a pic of our little toy just to prove I'm not blowing smoke:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]15217[/ATTACH]

 

Is that little guy going to see production?

[One and a half]

I've heard some people say that this thingy does galvanic isolation: https://www.olimex.com/Products/USB-Modules/USB-ISO/

 

I don't know myself, but do you know if it does from reading all the info?

 

Yes it does, BUT.

 

FEATURES

 

 

• USB isolation 1000VDC between USB host and USB device
  
• Fully USB 2.0 Compliant
  
• Full speed data rate 12 Mbps
  

 

 

12Mbps will give you max 96fs, no higher, so no chance to do DSD on DoP which needs 176.4fs. A lot of USB isolators behave this way. USB Audio Class 2.0 requires 480Mbps compliant devices and the Olimex misses out.

 

Great for Redbook only though.

 

Some more here and here. Same story, 12MBps