Official Light Harmonic Geek Pulse and LPS prices (100% to 200% higher than MSRPs listed during campaigns)

[labjr]

So, Sire is another unfinished product? It seems mind boggling how many campaigns and variations of products they're still working on. I'm pretty invested now. Not backing anything else until I get products. Gavin has a good spiel, but it's starting to get old.

 

I hope they'll finish the Source on time but seems unlikely. When's the best time cash out of this Ponzi Scheme?

[Superdad]

There is no stinkin' way they are going to be able to do that shape in panels at any reasonable cost. Blind fasteners or milled joints or you will see screws everywhere. Seams galore. Would require a sub-chassis unless they are going to mount all the boards on the bottom plate (which would actually make sense). CNC from billet would likely be cheaper--except that finish work of that shape is going to give them fits (unless they just anodize with mill tool pattern remaining).

 

Do it like their Sire? That is their planned $120,000 DAC right?

[labjr]

Why would Sire not be carved out of billet for $120K?

[Jud]

Yep, me too. I am doubling-down baby!

 

That's the spirit!

 

If it goes south, I am out a few bucks. Nobody dies.

 

That all depends on how much money I lose.

[longbowbbs]

Thanks for your feedback, I am soo happy to hear that.

Looking forward for your review.

 

Would like to ask one simple question: how much of the sound "appeal" is lost when not using the LPS?

I am looking forward to buy a cheaper LPS and will be looking in Europe, to avoid extra costs in transport and customs...

 

Any suggestion for an european LPS, by the way?

 

I cannot answer that directly. I did not have the wall wart, just the LPS. However, Gavin felt that the default power supply was a strong one and that the LPS was simply more quality on top of quality.

[Stereolab42]

Why would Sire not be carved out of billet for $120K?

 

For that cash it should be made from platinum melted out of the chains of a hundred bankrupt rappers.

 

There is no way LH can make the Soul with a case that looks within a million miles as good as that prototype, for $3199. Even if by some miracle they get close, how much money will they have left over for the parts that actually produce sound? They are living in an alternate universe.

[One and a half]

I read the front page of Chris Connaker's trip to Devialet en France. a small company initially founded on a stirling idea.

 

A backer was willing enough to sink millions of Euro into the fledgling company because the technology was impressive and more importantly, the company focused on a single aim and by all accounts getting it right.

 

Light Harmonic are doing the opposite, offering so many models with equally confusing specs, and the prices go up and higher encroaching that of tried and true mature DAC developments which are known to sound good for the money.

 

Even if a massive injection of dollars would not save this lot. My guess there is not going to be a Devialet backer for Light Harmonic, as they would want a sure thing, not when the writing is on the wall or when a company loses focus. If the order books were full, then it would be a sure thing to invest, however, the order books are full, but they lose on every sale, especially if they venture to retail. What kind of a silly model is that?

 

Would I buy from Light Harmonic, when their DACs are approaching USD4000? Ack no. There are far better alternatives.

[Audio_ELF]

I just don't get LH anymore. They have a million dollars or more and the entire continued existence of the firm riding on executing well and delivering pre-paid products, yet they hire a 23-year old graphic designer 3-months out of art school to do the industrial design for their most important new product. I don't wish a train wreck on them, but I am making so popcorn to watch the show…

Does anyone know ... are they having problems funding the production of the earlier products? Is LH turning into a Ponzi scheme - news crowdsourcing funds are being used to build the products promised to the earlier customers?

[Jud]

Does anyone know ... are they having problems funding the production of the earlier products? Is LH turning into a Ponzi scheme - news crowdsourcing funds are being used to build the products promised to the earlier customers?

 

I don't see how anyone would know unless the company made an official announcement (you can guess how likely that is), a disgruntled former employee came forward, or something like that, and so far as I'm aware none has. This (including much of what I've said) is sheer speculation.

[labjr]

People are gonna speculate when: All deadlines have been missed and the delays seem to be getting longer even though they've hired like 25 new people, they seemingly start new projects randomly when we've been waiting over a year. Any normal person would start to be suspicious and think they're burning through cash at an alarming rate.

[Superdad]

Well, setting aside opinions about if their forthcoming products have any major technical innovations (another ESS chip DAC with opamp output stage? zzzzzz….) or if they are getting ahead of themselves with too many projects, pre-announced pricing etc., let's not speculate. Let's just look at a couple of facts:

 

As of earlier this morning, $2,971,636 is the amount of money (less fees) they have collected on Indiegogo in the past year for products that have yet to ship (excepting a few cables and the power supply). This does not include the $303K Kickstarter campaign for the successfully launched Geek Out (about 1,400 units at between $100-300).

 

It is reported that, including the founders, they are up to just over 30 people.

They recently moved into this brand new business park facility:

 

Here is a quote from the e-mail they sent yesterday:

"One of the most frequently asked questions we receive is, “What the #@!#! are you guys thinking????” I even had one person say to me, “Gavin, I’ve been a member of Mensa for 30 years and I can’t figure out what you guys are up to.” When he told me that, I had to hold back the smile. Oh, who am I kidding? I have no poker face. I actually laughed out loud."

 

In response to that, they published a "complete road map" last night to all the products and also their strategy of perpetually funding via crowd funding.

(This latter stance is one I find particularly galling, since none of the people that give them all this money a year in advance are getting any piece of the company--yeah, I know that's what crowd funding is all about, but this just seems like a gaming of the system. A few posts above Gary mentioned Devialet, and how an outside investor came in and backed the firm with millions of Euros. But that investor now owns a good piece of a company with experienced designers delivering real products with unique and patented innovations. They too have about 30 people. But notice how their focused product line has just 4 models--all based on the same simple and elegant chassis.)

 

Here is Light Harmonic's published road map. I paste it here since their site requires one to be a logged in "GeekForce" member to view the page. (Note that this plan does include any of the super hi-end products like DaVinci or Sire.)

 

 

================

LH Labs' Product Roadmap

 

Our production cycle goes through four phases. During the first phase, we conduct our preliminary research and development. We define the scope of the project, and conduct feasibility tests.

During the second phase, we crowd design and crowdfund the product. We consider this phase an extension of phase 1 because the product scope may change according to our backers' and Force members' input.

Phase three is our pre-sale phase, during which we finalize the product scope and actually manufacture.

During phase four, we deliver the product into our sales channel.

 

Portable DAC/Headphone Amplifiers:

 

Geek Out Family (Phase 4)

A portable 384 kHz / 32 bit plus DSD 128 DAC and headphone amplifier.

Geek Out 1000

Geek Out IEM 100

Geek Out 450

 

Geek Stream Family (Phase 3)

A battery powered 32/384 kHz + DSD 128 DAC and headphone amplifier for your mobile devices.

Geek Stream 500 SE

Geek Stream 320

Geek Stream IEM 150

 

Geek Nano Family (Phase 1)

A thin and lightweight portable 384 kHz / 32 bit plus DSD 128 DAC and headphone amplifier.

Geek Nano 1000

Geek Nano IEM 100

Geek Nano 450

 

Standalone Audio Players

Geek Wave Family (Phase 3)

A high 32/384 kHz + DSD128 standalone portable audio player.

Geek Wave 256

Geek Wave 128

Geek Wave 128

Geek Wave 64

 

Desktop Audio Components:

 

Geek Pulse Family (Phase 3)

A desktop 32/384 kHz + DSD 128 DAC and headphone amplifier.

Geek Pulse Xfi

Geek Pulse X

Geek Pulse

 

Geek LPS Family (Phase 3)

An ultra-low noise linear power supply for LH Labs desktop devices.

Geek LPS

Geek LPS4

 

Projects (Phase 1):

Project THAA desktop-sized tube headphone amplifier.

Project SHAA desktop-sized solid state headphone amplifier.

Project TPAA desktop-sized tube phono pre-amplifier.

Project SPAA desktop-sized solid state phono pre-amplifier.

 

 

Home Audio Components:

 

Geek Source Family (Phase 3)

Geek Source 4Tf

Geek Source 4T

Geek Source 2T

 

Geek Soul Family (Phase 2)

Geek Soul Tube

Geek Soul Xfi

Geek Soul X

 

Ultra-high Speed Audio Cables:

LightSpeed Family (Phase 3/4)

LightSpeed USB 10G

LightSpeed USB 2G

LightSpeed USB 1G

LightSpeed USB 1G Micro

LightSpeed S/PDIF

LightSpeed AES

 

Power Amplifiers:

 

Projects (Phase 1)

Project Keep-240M A 240 watt deeply-biased class AB monoblock amplifier.

Project Keep-120MA 120 watt deeply-biased class AB monoblock amplifier.

Project Keep-60MA 60 watt deeply-biased class AB monoblock amplifier.

Project Keep-30SA 30 watt per channel deeply-biased class AB stereo amplifier.

 

Project Add-ons

Project BCA bluetooth receiver addon-stage for Keep amplifiers.

Project WCA wifi receiver addon-stage for Keep amplifiers.

 

Accessories

Slacker Mini (Phase 4)

Geek Stand (Phase 1)

Geek Station (Phase 3)

===========================

[Jud]

That's 34 products, counting only boxes and not accessories. It's actually more, for two reasons: First, as you mentioned, it doesn't count the high dollar Light Harmonics products; second, if one takes the Geek Wave as an example, there are four shown in the roadmap, but if you check out the IGG page, there are more like twenty different configurations. (E.g., a version with circuitry optimized for in-ear monitors; femto clocks; dual DAC chips; "zero jitter" Bluetooth; standalone DAC capability; circuitry optimized for low THD; etc. etc., etc.)

 

So you have some fraction of 30 people working on designing what at a very rough guess could be 100 or more different product configurations, which as Gavin notes can and have changed multiple times along the way in response not only to LHL employee and vendor input, but also in response to what people suggest on the LHL user forums.

[Chartwel85]

Sire was never a crowdfunded project.

[Chartwel85]

Well, setting aside opinions about if their forthcoming products have any major technical innovations (another ESS chip DAC with opamp output stage? zzzzzz….) or if they are getting ahead of themselves with too many projects, pre-announced pricing etc., let's not speculate. Let's just look at a couple of facts:

 

As of earlier this morning, $2,971,636 is the amount of money (less fees) they have collected on Indiegogo in the past year for products that have yet to ship (excepting a few cables and the power supply). This does not include the $303K Kickstarter campaign for the successfully launched Geek Out (about 1,400 units at between $100-300).

 

It is reported that, including the founders, they are up to just over 30 people.

They recently moved into this brand new business park facility:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]15327[/ATTACH]

 

Here is a quote from the e-mail they sent yesterday:

"One of the most frequently asked questions we receive is, “What the #@!#! are you guys thinking????” I even had one person say to me, “Gavin, I’ve been a member of Mensa for 30 years and I can’t figure out what you guys are up to.” When he told me that, I had to hold back the smile. Oh, who am I kidding? I have no poker face. I actually laughed out loud."

 

In response to that, they published a "complete road map" last night to all the products and also their strategy of perpetually funding via crowd funding.

(This latter stance is one I find particularly galling, since none of the people that give them all this money a year in advance are getting any piece of the company--yeah, I know that's what crowd funding is all about, but this just seems like a gaming of the system. A few posts above Gary mentioned Devialet, and how an outside investor came in and backed the firm with millions of Euros. But that investor now owns a good piece of a company with experienced designers delivering real products with unique and patented innovations. They too have about 30 people. But notice how their focused product line has just 4 models--all based on the same simple and elegant chassis.)

 

Here is Light Harmonic's published road map. I paste it here since their site requires one to be a logged in "GeekForce" member to view the page. (Note that this plan does include any of the super hi-end products like DaVinci or Sire.)

 

 

================

LH Labs' Product Roadmap

 

Our production cycle goes through four phases. During the first phase, we conduct our preliminary research and development. We define the scope of the project, and conduct feasibility tests.

During the second phase, we crowd design and crowdfund the product. We consider this phase an extension of phase 1 because the product scope may change according to our backers' and Force members' input.

Phase three is our pre-sale phase, during which we finalize the product scope and actually manufacture.

During phase four, we deliver the product into our sales channel.

 

Portable DAC/Headphone Amplifiers:

 

Geek Out Family (Phase 4)

A portable 384 kHz / 32 bit plus DSD 128 DAC and headphone amplifier.

Geek Out 1000

Geek Out IEM 100

Geek Out 450

 

Geek Stream Family (Phase 3)

A battery powered 32/384 kHz + DSD 128 DAC and headphone amplifier for your mobile devices.

Geek Stream 500 SE

Geek Stream 320

Geek Stream IEM 150

 

Geek Nano Family (Phase 1)

A thin and lightweight portable 384 kHz / 32 bit plus DSD 128 DAC and headphone amplifier.

Geek Nano 1000

Geek Nano IEM 100

Geek Nano 450

 

Standalone Audio Players

Geek Wave Family (Phase 3)

A high 32/384 kHz + DSD128 standalone portable audio player.

Geek Wave 256

Geek Wave 128

Geek Wave 128

Geek Wave 64

 

Desktop Audio Components:

 

Geek Pulse Family (Phase 3)

A desktop 32/384 kHz + DSD 128 DAC and headphone amplifier.

Geek Pulse Xfi

Geek Pulse X

Geek Pulse

 

Geek LPS Family (Phase 3)

An ultra-low noise linear power supply for LH Labs desktop devices.

Geek LPS

Geek LPS4

 

Projects (Phase 1):

Project THAA desktop-sized tube headphone amplifier.

Project SHAA desktop-sized solid state headphone amplifier.

Project TPAA desktop-sized tube phono pre-amplifier.

Project SPAA desktop-sized solid state phono pre-amplifier.

 

 

Home Audio Components:

 

Geek Source Family (Phase 3)

Geek Source 4Tf

Geek Source 4T

Geek Source 2T

 

Geek Soul Family (Phase 2)

Geek Soul Tube

Geek Soul Xfi

Geek Soul X

 

Ultra-high Speed Audio Cables:

LightSpeed Family (Phase 3/4)

LightSpeed USB 10G

LightSpeed USB 2G

LightSpeed USB 1G

LightSpeed USB 1G Micro

LightSpeed S/PDIF

LightSpeed AES

 

Power Amplifiers:

 

Projects (Phase 1)

Project Keep-240M A 240 watt deeply-biased class AB monoblock amplifier.

Project Keep-120MA 120 watt deeply-biased class AB monoblock amplifier.

Project Keep-60MA 60 watt deeply-biased class AB monoblock amplifier.

Project Keep-30SA 30 watt per channel deeply-biased class AB stereo amplifier.

 

Project Add-ons

Project BCA bluetooth receiver addon-stage for Keep amplifiers.

Project WCA wifi receiver addon-stage for Keep amplifiers.

 

Accessories

Slacker Mini (Phase 4)

Geek Stand (Phase 1)

Geek Station (Phase 3)

===========================

 

Da Vinci, Da Vinci Dual DAC & Sire are Light Harmonic products.

 

And that's actually a picture of the old office of which we only had a small suite in.

[Chartwel85]

Re-reading the post from Superdad brings up another point that I'd like to quickly address. Where in crowdfunding does the backer become a shareholder in the company? I think that what you might be referring to is crowd-investing. Something that LH Labs has never done.

[Superdad]

Re-reading the post from Superdad brings up another point that I'd like to quickly address. Where in crowdfunding does the backer become a shareholder in the company? I think that what you might be referring to is crowd-investing. Something that LH Labs has never done.

 

Oops, I see where one of the typos in my post completely changed the meaning of my sentence! I very much meant to to say: …"yeah, I know that's NOT what crowd funding is all about." Quite sorry about that.

 

To be honest, during the Geek Out campaign I was really excited for LH (and I did back both that and the Pulse campaigns plus referred several non-audiophiles to them, and I even printed out Gavin's guide entitled "How We Hacked Kickstarter, Part 1" since I recognize crowd funding as both a way to raise money for a project and to get heavily engaged with an early-adopter client base--who then become "grass roots zealots" for the brand. In fact I am certain that somewhere in the history of my posts here at CA--around the early days of the Geek Out campaign--I wrote some considerable defense of the model and corrected a number of people who were confused about what crowd funding is and isn't, and I talked up the positives.

 

Yet I do stand by what I have been saying lately, which is that I have significant misgivings about making crowd funding the ongoing, primary engine of an established company. It is a very slippery slope, and frankly Light Harmonic has already been sliding all over it for some time. Projects appear and disappear, products morph into other products and perpetual campaigns; delays, failures to communicate (well, that's not true: I get tons of solicitations for new campaigns and upgrades/perks--but never anything telling me when I should expect to get the simple product I paid for over a year ago).

 

I do read the posts in Light Harmonic's Geek Force forum, and even your most ardent supporters are getting baffled and frustrated. So while I am trying to be fair and balanced in what I post about the situation, I am hardly alone in my skepticism about the direction of your company.

 

And still I hope for your success. I just can't wait to see how you manage to build the manta ray-cased Geek Soul a penny less than the $1499 you are pre-selling them for.

 

Best of luck to you and your team,

 

Alex C.

 

P.S. Are the first batch of Geek Pulse units still on track to ship November 14th? LH has been awful quiet these past two weeks on that front.

[Chartwel85]

It's totally fine, lol. Typo's happen.

 

Appreciate you talking up the positives around the crowdfunding campaign as well.

 

To briefly touch on the aspect of using crowdfunding as the primary tool to launch products it's simply that. A tool to make a splash with a product launch and allow it to be developed by those that have a vested interest in it. Projects appear and morph into a multitude of variations, yes. But they also take on aspects that were contributed by the crowd that end up making them more appealing and useable in the long run. From a consumer standpoint, I can see where the delays might be frustrating but the simple fact the were able to bring the majority of products to fruition in such a short period of time (basically a year) is simply amazing. To go from R&D to production within a year, it's almost unheard of in most industries.

 

If you take a look at our forum we're posting product updates, including shipping updates, on a continual basis. If you're looking for something specific, yo can find each product has its own category inside the forum.

 

Do we have our skeptics? Yes, of course. Who doesn't? We take the criticism in stride and make the best of it knowing that we're doing things that are both ground breaking and on the forefront in the way of how we model of business structure.

 

Thanks for the well wishes! We're looking forward to continued success with Geek Soul and I'll try to be as active in this forum as possible to keep you updated on its progress.

 

Yes, the Geek Pulse is still on track for a November 14th delivery. We've been incredibly vocal about it everywhere actually.

 

Anything other questions, I'm only a message or posting away.

[Panelhead]

I just looked to find a scheduled shipping date for my Xfi. But saw pics. Are Gavin and your pics switched? Your pic sure looks like Gavin.

[TopQuark]

Interesting discussions here. Of course, there is risk to everything.

 

Backer - Low prices for early backers. Quite significant in some products. Also, rewards along the way as features are being added and those are not subtle features either. Could lose their initial contribution if the product turned out to be mediocre or a dud.

 

Non-backer - Skeptics who could lose out on the lower early adopter pricing by playing it safe. It's worth paying at higher prices later if product truly turned out to be very competitive against similar price points.

 

LH Labs - Failing to deliver on a ballooning customer base. Just one big mistake can pop the balloon. There isn't a lot of wiggle room here. On the other hand, this could be their ticket to greatness if they continue to deliver.

 

Time will tell and time is closing in. From Geek Out experience, product release was not smooth sailing but it is looking very good. Pulse can just amplify that further and it too is looking very good at least from the initial review and RMAF experience.

 

Take your pick.

[Chartwel85]

I just looked to find a scheduled shipping date for my Xfi. But saw pics. Are Gavin and your pics switched? Your pic sure looks like Gavin.

 

Which picture?

[Superdad]

Which picture?

 

Speaking of pictures Casey: Are there any photos of Pulse boards, production, or burn-in racks? I searched the LHLabs forums but could not find any.

Thanks.

[CKKeung]

Samples of Geek Soul chassis arrived.

 

Larry making planning for the Geek Soul circuit board size & placement.

[Superdad]

Samples of Geek Soul chassis arrived.

 

That's nice, and Geek Soul has been announced for shipment next summer.

So at this point I'd much rather see photos of all-hands-on-deck building, testing, packing Geek Pulse units for shipments which are supposed to begin in 4 days.

I don't think I am alone in this regard.

[Blake]

Yes, pics of Pulse units being readied for shipment would be appreciated. Last week, Larry said Pulse shipments were on schedule for shipment at the end of this week but who knows.

 

Casey, do you have any updates on Pulse shipping?

 

LPS units supposedly started shipping the last week of October. I have not yet read any reports from any forum members about receiving the LPS, but would expect people should be getting them. If anyone has received the LPS, please let us know.

[tne]

That's nice, and Geek Soul has been announced for shipment next summer.

So at this point I'd much rather see photos of all-hands-on-deck building, testing, packing Geek Pulse units for shipments which are supposed to begin in 4 days.

I don't think I am alone in this regard.

 

You are definitely not alone in this regard.

It would be nice to see the LH website update the production roadmap to accurately reflect the updated planned delivery dates for X, S, and Xfi, along with letting the backers have a better sense of when they should expect their units.

 

Also I am a firm believer that form follows function. While I agree the current look of the Soul is extremely nice, especially compared to the butt-ugly Pulse variants for the initial backers, I wonder why Larry is looking at the case to determine the internal layout. I would suggest that instead that they design the inside components with flexible options, then design the most aesthetically interesting case. And we all know the Geek Force will offer abundant variants for consideration as the process unfolds. The idea of designing the case first, just makes no sense to me except from a marketing standpoint.