Tom's Hardware Blind DAC Test

[Mike Mcsweeney]

Thanks for this information!

 

 

 

Thanks for the link, looks like a very interesting product.

 

I thought PS Audio's press release made Mike Mcsweeney's point quite well. My favorite quote was this one "An end to the 30-year PCM cover-up: PS Audio is proud to end the cover-up, and finally, with the revolutionary DirectStream DAC, reveal all the missing information buried within PCM-based digital recordings." Sounds like this means that in the future my high resolution PCM recordings with this kind of conversion to DSD will offer even more sonic realism. I'm all for the continuing evolution of improved digital sound quality and my 5.6MHz DSD downloads are the best sounding recordings on my computer, to bring PCM up to a level near that would really be something.

 

 

 

The way I read it he didn't present it as his own because he clearly said "their" solution was DSD, he never said it was "his" solution.

 

Why does it matter he quoted from PS Audio's press release? Mike should have provided the link, other than that I couldn't find anything wrong with the information he presented.

 

Thanks...i actually thought it was pretty clear it wasn't my words...if i provided the link, they would have just said it was nothing but marketing anyway...same things were said when i did quote antelope zodiac dsd dac, and did provide a link....the nay-sayers just said it was "just marketing".

It might be marketing, but when they make "factual statements" and they are a reputable company (e.g. antelope), i would think some people would listen.

 

Just because it is marketing, doesn't mean it is false...

 

e.g.....upsampling mode where DSD64 and DSD128 are upsampled to DSD256, thereby releasing the true potential of DSD – delivering new standards in accuracy, transparency, imaging, and dynamics

 

The company’s equipment can be found in top commercial facilities around the world and is routinely used by the industry’s most accomplished recording, mixing, mastering and live sound audio engineers.

 

...And the precision with which we are carrying this out is three times higher than what is typically done on the DAC chip. It is a more accurate calculation, and this is what makes the difference when you are computing the missing points.”

 

Even in cases where the original material was not recorded at higher rates, we can still use the same mathematics that we use in the upsampling with the PCM in order to produce higher sample rate DSD – and that is going to make a big difference when the DSD is reconstructed,

[Musicophile]

How cynical is that? A very low opinion of your fellow man. Starting to approach my own.

 

I certainly hope that only a few people will get their fingers burned. It just goes to show how corrupt the electronics giants have become. There was a time when they would have been above the kind of flim-flammery that calls a device with 120 dB SNR a 24-bit DAC. Then some are promoting 32-bit devices. I don't know what the world is coming to.

 

Thanks everybody, for the good wishes.

 

They told me this morning that it's terminal, I've got 6+ months to try to put my affairs in order. Full speed ahead, and damn the torpedoes.

 

Fred

Really sorry to hear this, but don't give up just yet. Somebody in my close family was diagnosed with metastatic breast cancer more than 5 years ago. The statistics would have given her much less. Mental attitude can make a great difference. Don't forget that doctors can only tell you statistics and likelihoods, not your own personal prognosis.

[Don Hills]

... Mental attitude can make a great difference. ...

 

Judging by Fred's attitude as expressed in his posts, he'll live forever.

[mayhem13]

because they will go out of business by the companies selling DSD for same price as PCM if they don't get on the wagon...(wink)

 

Ok!............

[Mike Mcsweeney]

Ok!............

I also wasn't really speaking about downloads per se'

I was speaking about the DSD technology in general. It is here for awhile, and all the major hardware vendors are supporting it. I am certain there will be more PCM/DSD dacs built in the future than PCM only...jmo..but again time will tell. I am just surprised at anyone who doesn't see that.

[wakibaki]

Judging by Fred's attitude as expressed in his posts, he'll live forever.

 

Thanks, Don. That's exactly the kind of support I need. Thanks, everybody for the expressions of sympathy. Now it's a question of carrying on as though nothing's changed, as far and as long as possible. I just couldn't help reacting to the news, but now it's out in the open, it's of very little consequence in the context of our discussions.

 

Fred

[Mike Mcsweeney]

...Now it's a question of carrying on as though nothing's changed,

 

I wouldn't. You know the old saying, live every day like it's your last...but how cliche, and unrealistic...

Explore things you haven't before, make sure you are at peace with everyone, especially family and old friends, do things with more vigor...jmo

 

good luck

[wakibaki]

I was already in live each day mode, Mike. That's why I've been so outspoken. I've been living with this as a possible outcome for ~4.5 years. I long ago got to the point where I felt compelled to be frank.

 

Thanks,

 

Fred

 

There was a time when engineers failed the audio community, a time when they should have stood up and told the subjectivists to f*** off in no uncertain terms. Nice men, or maybe naiive, they did not know the stakes in play, and they were too gentlemanly, they did not know they were in a gutter fight. That every technique of propaganda and dissimulation would be brought to bear upon them. They were never the best of the crop, they go to radio, but that's no excuse.

 

I've been in a lot of fights. Man-on-man, in the street. A lot of guys tried to intimidate me. I never would have it.

 

This has made me a bit uncompromising in discussion. Take-no-prisoners. You have to remember though, a smack round the head is better than no attention at all. My big dog will tell you that any day. He thinks the sun shines outta my 4ss.

[sandyk]

There was a time when engineers failed the audio community, a time when they should have stood up and told the subjectivists to f*** off in no uncertain terms.

 

Many of them are still failing the audio community. Engineers aren't god. They are human beings with all their failings.

If it wasn't for subjective reports there would be no need for objective reports, or the need for further improvements with many designs.

You only have to read through this forum to see many areas where qualified E.E.s aren't in full agreement.

You will also see Errata columns in some Technical publications for projects designed by qualified E.E.s where other E.E. readers have corrected them.

[elcorso]

They told me this morning that it's terminal, I've got 6+ months to try to put my affairs in order. Full speed ahead, and damn the torpedoes.

 

Fred

 

Following stats I should be buried several times since the end of 1999 ...!

 

What you need Fred is a little luck, some Yoga or Tai-Chi and a lot of faith and Curcumin (Turmeric).

 

Best wishes,

 

Roch

 

PS/ I began on Bonsai by that time, looking for the Zen.

[sandyk]

What you need Fred is a little luck, some Yoga or Tai-Chi and a lot of faith and Curcumin (Turmeric).

 

I found Curcumin to be highly beneficial for severe back pain due to Arthritis. In fact, it stopped the severe back pain.

It is also reported to have Cancer fighting properties.

 

Alex

[wakibaki]

You base your position on a misguided egalitarianism, Alex.

 

Then let us pray that come it may,

(As come it will for a' that,)

That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth,

Shall bear the gree, an' a' that.

For a' that, an' a' that,

It's coming yet for a' that,

That Man to Man, the world o'er,

Shall brothers be for a' that.

 

We are not talking politics however. Both science and art were mangled in the Procrustean bed of Socialist philosophy. All men's opinions are not equally valuable in all contexts.

 

'You're not God!'

 

Go tell it to the oncologist.

 

Fred

[esldude]

I was already in live each day mode, Mike. That's why I've been so outspoken. I've been living with this as a possible outcome for ~4.5 years. I long ago got to the point where I felt compelled to be frank.

 

Thanks,

 

Fred

 

There was a time when engineers failed the audio community, a time when they should have stood up and told the subjectivists to f*** off in no uncertain terms. Nice men, or maybe naiive, they did not know the stakes in play, and they were too gentlemanly, they did not know they were in a gutter fight. That every technique of propaganda and dissimulation would be brought to bear upon them. They were never the best of the crop, they go to radio, but that's no excuse.

 

I've been in a lot of fights. Man-on-man, in the street. A lot of guys tried to intimidate me. I never would have it.

 

This has made me a bit uncompromising in discussion. Take-no-prisoners. You have to remember though, a smack round the head is better than no attention at all. My big dog will tell you that any day. He thinks the sun shines outta my 4ss.

 

First, let me say I am saddened to hear your prognosis. I hope the best for you with what time is left.

 

I do think at some point some engineers or scientists should have done just as you say. This thing has grown to the point fact, actual FACT, has no sway against opinions to the contrary even when said opinions are simply physically impossible.

 

But engineers never were in charge or the primary voices behind hobbiest audio. Even JGH who more than anyone got this whole subjectivist approach going seemed to regret the results. Empowering the everyday music listener to tell his his truth and express his preferences is one thing. To create something beyond control with crazy ideas, and guru-designers revered as enlightened mystical beings, and have it all amped up by con-like activity to shear the sheep with ever more unlikely even impossible ideas holding sway over reality is quite another. And of course each idea crazier than the last comes at more and more cost. Computer audio had the chance to make unmatched fidelity and preference in playback more convenient and less expensive than ever before. Instead it appears to have quickly become the very wackiest of the bunch. If it were a movie script it could only be done as a comic book adaptation. Too insane to suspend belief otherwise.

[4est]

I feel awash with sympathy. What a poor soul, tainted by the unclean masses' wants and needs.

 

Swing low sweet chariot, swing low...

First, let me say I am saddened to hear your prognosis. I hope the best for you with what time is left.

 

I do think at some point some engineers or scientists should have done just as you say. This thing has grown to the point fact, actual FACT, has no sway against opinions to the contrary even when said opinions are simply physically impossible.

 

But engineers never were in charge or the primary voices behind hobbiest audio. Even JGH who more than anyone got this whole subjectivist approach going seemed to regret the results. Empowering the everyday music listener to tell his his truth and express his preferences is one thing. To create something beyond control with crazy ideas, and guru-designers revered as enlightened mystical beings, and have it all amped up by con-like activity to shear the sheep with ever more unlikely even impossible ideas holding sway over reality is quite another. And of course each idea crazier than the last comes at more and more cost. Computer audio had the chance to make unmatched fidelity and preference in playback more convenient and less expensive than ever before. Instead it appears to have quickly become the very wackiest of the bunch. If it were a movie script it could only be done as a comic book adaptation. Too insane to suspend belief otherwise.

[thesurfingalien]

They told me this morning that it's terminal, I've got 6+ months to try to put my affairs in order. Full speed ahead, and damn the torpedoes.

 

Fred

 

Hi Fred,

 

It makes me sad to hear this. I wish for you to have all the strength you need, and I hope you will be able to enjoy the time you have left with your loved ones...

 

Peter

[Paul R]

LOL- that bit about "engineers failed the audio community" is the biggest, most outrageous, perfectly phrased, totally wrong statement I have heard in years! If you were here that would have definitely earned a beer!

 

First off- it is obviously untrue of course. Compare your highly engineered gramophone to my iPhone. Want to take bets which would win a better engineered comparison? Engineers win easily.

 

Not the same area you say? Ok. Compare that 1893 Marvel of Engineering the Wax cylinder to a Fostex digital recorder. Still not what you mean, huh?

 

How about a CD version of Barry Diamant's _Americas_ compared to the 24/192k version? That's closer huh? (Apologies to Barry for any inaccuracies...)

 

Everyone I know of can hear that difference. Obviously Barry can and he is a top notch recording engineer. Saying he is failing the community is pure unadulterated bullshit.

 

The man is driving the industry, kicking and screaming, all the way. Not because the brilliant industry objects to the technology either - anyone with brains does not dispute the technology. Resistance is based purely on cost.

 

The hammering, resistant crowd is composed mostly of bean counters and scam artists. Not engineers. Or at least not anyone who earned a degree in any engineering field and makes a living with it. Or even those who do not have a degree but have learned on the job. So long as they have brains and are disposed to use them.

 

So perhaps you are referring to something like amplifiers? Here you might find some ground for your theory, but not much. Many people I know can reliably pick between two amplifiers blind. One or two with perfect reliability.

 

That shoots this dumb ass supposition, at least in this one case, full of great big gaping glaring holes. Big enough to drive an 18 wheel tractor trailer through.

 

Sideways.

 

Where you might have some room to argue is that they do not always choose the more expensive unit as the *better* amp. That supposes you are saying the better engineered amp sounds better. Obviously all amps do not sound the same. Truck, sideways, etc.

 

You wanted plain speaking- you got it. That statement is so laughable that I really did spend almost five minutes chuckling. The whole idea is just full of little red ants and you know it.

 

Here's a counter for you. The one engineer I can think of who supposedly designs his DAC without listening to it also makes one of the most expensive DACs out there. Almost universally acclaimed.

 

Except- one on one with a much less expensive $1700 DAC, the less expensive DAC sounds indistinguishable. And when put head to head with a little $149 DAC, we get a repeat of the results with amps, only more so. Out of the limited audience (14 people) who compared the darn things- every could reliably tell the difference between the two.

 

And 9 people preferred the $149 DAC.

 

I checked everything on that test setup *personally*- from volume matching up. The test was not rigged. I checked throughly because I was one of the ones that picked the $149 DAC as better. That was not my expectation at all.

 

Engineers failing the audio community...(chuckle) that is really a good one! What's next? Discussing our ancestry?

 

 

 

I was already in live each day mode, Mike. That's why I've been so outspoken. I've been living with this as a possible outcome for ~4.5 years. I long ago got to the point where I felt compelled to be frank.

 

Thanks,

 

Fred

 

There was a time when engineers failed the audio community, a time when they should have stood up and told the subjectivists to f*** off in no uncertain terms. Nice men, or maybe naiive, they did not know the stakes in play, and they were too gentlemanly, they did not know they were in a gutter fight. That every technique of propaganda and dissimulation would be brought to bear upon them. They were never the best of the crop, they go to radio, but that's no excuse.

 

I've been in a lot of fights. Man-on-man, in the street. A lot of guys tried to intimidate me. I never would have it.

 

This has made me a bit uncompromising in discussion. Take-no-prisoners. You have to remember though, a smack round the head is better than no attention at all. My big dog will tell you that any day. He thinks the sun shines outta my 4ss.

[Mark Manner]

...I was one of the ones that picked the $149 DAC as better. ...

 

Hi Paul, what is the $149 dac? Probably I read it somewhere, but can't recall. Thanks,

Mark

[Don Hills]

... Sony even sold special tweeters that extended to 100kHz. Sony must have been unscrupulous thieves too ?

 

They were at least guilty of being economical with the facts.

1: Plot a graph showing the typical level, relative to the midrange, of the harmonics present above 20 KHz.

2: On the same graph, plot the DSD noise level.

Note how the two lines cross at a depressingly low frequency.

[sandyk]

They were at least guilty of being economical with the facts.

1: Plot a graph showing the typical level, relative to the midrange, of the harmonics present above 20 KHz.

2: On the same graph, plot the DSD noise level.

Note how the two lines cross at a depressingly low frequency.

 

But many people seem to be quite happy with the DSD noise level. I prefer well recorded 24/96 or 24/192 over SACD,

so I guess that puts me in the minority ?

[esldude]

They were at least guilty of being economical with the facts.

1: Plot a graph showing the typical level, relative to the midrange, of the harmonics present above 20 KHz.

2: On the same graph, plot the DSD noise level.

Note how the two lines cross at a depressingly low frequency.

 

Don Hills, now you know facts like this have no place here. People was happy, but NO!, that is not good enough for you.

 

People knows they needs 24 bits (got to keep noise down), and peoples knows they needs ultrasonics to get the best sound. And people knows their needs are met by DSD, just ask them once they listen.

 

But you would bring up that the level of ultrasonics are low when present, and DSD has noise at ultrasonics. ( Should we mention DSD was only meant to be good to 50 khz initially.) Much DSD might look okay below 20 khz (which any ear trusting audiophile can tell you is not enough), somehow even though DSD has less than 16 bit performance much above 20 khz people's ears told them it was quieter, and better and more extended and we need 100 khz bandwidth ( at least to have in mind we have .1 mhz to work with). Somehow you want to bring facts into the matter. Just how ridiculous.

[Don Hills]

Don Hills, now you know facts like this have no place here. People was happy, but NO!, that is not good enough for you. ...

 

Some days I feel so naughty...

[Paul R]

Wow Dennis- rare form today! 10/9/9/2 on the nastiness/snark/insulting/funny scale.

 

I assume your store of facts, all the ones below you are so sure about, are from your degree or experience? I am sure you were involved when DSD was defined and have inside knowledge about that 50khz limit? Or have built systems that work with DSD?

 

I am sure you would never be so gross as to simply regurgitate information you found on the net without any critical analysis of the information, or vetting its source, or even simply listening to the difference would you?

 

For example - everyone knows single rate DSD was chosen to provide a high dynamic range in the audio band and something like 100khz of frequency response? Of course, Every One is probably wrong there and I bow to your superior expertise, as I am sure, does the entire audio recording industry..

 

 

 

 

Don Hills, now you know facts like this have no place here. People was happy, but NO!, that is not good enough for you.

 

People knows they needs 24 bits (got to keep noise down), and peoples knows they needs ultrasonics to get the best sound. And people knows their needs are met by DSD, just ask them once they listen.

 

But you would bring up that the level of ultrasonics are low when present, and DSD has noise at ultrasonics. ( Should we mention DSD was only meant to be good to 50 khz initially.) Much DSD might look okay below 20 khz (which any ear trusting audiophile can tell you is not enough), somehow even though DSD has less than 16 bit performance much above 20 khz people's ears told them it was quieter, and better and more extended and we need 100 khz bandwidth ( at least to have in mind we have .1 mhz to work with). Somehow you want to bring facts into the matter. Just how ridiculous.

[Teresa]

You know the old saying, live every day like it's your last...

 

This is good advise for everyone. Many decades ago we were having a family Sunday supper and we were low on milk so my brother Johnny went to the 7-Eleven store to pick some up, when an hour went by and he hadn't come home yet, we went looking for him. The police were all around the 7-Eleven store, turns out it had been robbed, the clerk and two customers were killed in the robbery including Johnny. He was only 19 years old, the robber only got $60 cash and took three lives. So one never knows when one will die.

[Teresa]

But engineers never were in charge or the primary voices behind hobbiest audio. Even JGH who more than anyone got this whole subjectivist approach going seemed to regret the results.

 

It was audio engineers who listened to the subjectivists complaints of the strident, uncomfortable "digital" sound of early CD that caused them to improve the sound of digital. Were it not for subjectivists CD sound would be exactly the same as it was in 1985, since the scientists in power considered it perfect and published theories to prove that it was indeed perfect. However instead of listening to these digital apologists, audio engineers went about improving digital anyway. If objectivists were in charge there would be no high resolution digital, no separate DACs, and no other improvements as we would be saddled with their disgusting "perfect sound forever". Thank God the engineers ignored them and listened to the subjectivists instead!

 

People knows they needs 24 bits (got to keep noise down), and peoples knows they needs ultrasonics to get the best sound. And people knows their needs are met by DSD, just ask them once they listen.

 

But you would bring up that the level of ultrasonics are low when present, and DSD has noise at ultrasonics. ( Should we mention DSD was only meant to be good to 50 khz initially.) Much DSD might look okay below 20 khz (which any ear trusting audiophile can tell you is not enough), somehow even though DSD has less than 16 bit performance much above 20 khz people's ears told them it was quieter, and better and more extended and we need 100 khz bandwidth ( at least to have in mind we have .1 mhz to work with). Somehow you want to bring facts into the matter. Just how ridiculous.

 

DSD is a little better than you stated, from my article Should New Master Recordings be Analog, DSD or 24-Bit PCM?

 

"One bit DSD is very noisy, so the benefit of such wide frequency response is the ability to push the noise into the higher ultrasonic regions, making DSD quieter than PCM in the audible range, this is called "noise shaping". After doing many plot spectrums on my SACDs I have discovered that DSD noise begins rising at 30-35kHz on some recordings, as low as 25kHz on others, and at 40kHz the noise is louder than any ultrasonic signal. A 50kHz filter is usually used on SACD players to keep this noise from adversely affecting up-line equipment, so in reality the maximum ultrasonic response to be heard above DSD noise for 2.8MHz DSD is around 35kHz. With 5.6MHz DSD, which is double SACD's resolution, it moves ultrasonic noise beyond 60kHz. The moving of ultrasonic noise further away from the audible range is what many feel gives 5.6MHz its superior sound quality."

[Teresa]

Can you guys hear the difference between Barry Diament's track "Maria" from "Americas" in the original 24/192 format, and the same track after conversion to 16/44.1 ?

 

Can you tell a difference blind when you don't know which is which?

 

So as usual I will take that as a No to the question.

 

Funny I took it as a YES, since Alex does a lot of blind listening tests not only of himself but also using others, including me.

 

You can hear for yourself in your own blind test the sonic differences between different sample rates at Soundkeeper Recording's Format Comparison page. The samples are at 16/44, 24/96 and 24/192.