Tom's Hardware Blind DAC Test

[mayhem13]

Although their belief, that there was little to no difference between the $2 and $2000 DAC in SQ, they did agree that DSD did sound better and more natural than PCM...which is basically where my head is at....buy an inexpensive DSD DAC and you should be happy...that's what I am doing being new to hobby and budget minded....and i made that decision before reading this article, but it solidifies my decision....

 

considering these DSD/PCM DACs

 

ifi $190

denon $500

Korg $380

 

That or buy an AVR that has DSD DAC with an asynchronous usb port that i can plug my pc DIRECTLY into the AVR.

 

Are you pretty confident that DSD will become a popular format, offering new titles as well as remastered older classics?

 

From a beginners standpoint, not sure that's a bet I'd be willing to take. As a long time, fully entrenched hobbyist I'm still reluctant to add on DSD capabilities if that matters to you.

[wakibaki]

LMFAO

 

They specifically warned that their conclusions were applicable only to those 2 versions of that particular album, which cannot be interpreted as a quality advantage for DSD systems in general. The content is usually different on DSD. This has been identified as the cause of perceived differences in many cases,

 

From a listening consumer POV, the more compact and readily copyable and editable Redbook CD is far preferable, as is PCM for recording. It has been necessary to invent a kind of pseudo (8-bit) DSD for use in the studio. Consumers should not encourage DSD, although it is likely to die out anyway, as formats which present problems and are costly to edit (require expensive software) do in video. Many DSDs are recorded in high bitrate PCM.

 

w

[Mike Mcsweeney]

Are you pretty confident that DSD will become a popular format, offering new titles as well as remastered older classics?

 

From a beginners standpoint, not sure that's a bet I'd be willing to take. As a long time, fully entrenched hobbyist I'm still reluctant to add on DSD capabilities if that matters to you.

 

Absolutely, no question in my mind. THere is already tons of support for it, and all the major players are adopting it. It would be naive not to see it. It is also natural progression. It won't be the last, but it is most definitely here and will continue to grow support.

[junker]

Why does it seem that discussions about bit depth stay narrowly focused on dynamic range and not discuss quantization noise?

 

Aren't there other considerations with sampling frequency than the audible frequency range? What about phase noise and pre-ringing - side effects of steep digital filters with 16/44.1 that are relaxed with higher sampling frequencies.

 

I applaud the effort but it seems like there is a lot going on at the same time... And perhaps some "expectations" with regards to format. See above.

[Blake]

Absolutely, no question in my mind. THere is already tons of support for it, and all the major players are adopting it. It would be naive not to see it. It is also natural progression. It won't be the last, but it is most definitely here and will continue to grow support.

 

 

Seriously? Where is the "tons of support" from the music labels?

 

By your reference to "all the major players," I assume you are talking about DAC manufacturers, because you cannot be referencing the music industry. If the music side cannot keep up with the DAC hardware side, what is the point?

 

DSD is a niche, within a niche, within a niche (and yes, I am aware of the small handful of DSD download sites, such as 2L, focusing mainly on classical music, and now Acoustic Sounds with a microscopic catalog at $25 an album).

 

You can't even buy PCM 24/96 downloads from HD Tracks and be confident that you are getting the real deal. See Chris' article about the recent Beck release as an example.

[Paul R]

I believe we are in a period of time where the paradigms are changing. You could call this a phase shift, from media like LP and CD, to computer based media. I have no doubt at all that CD will, sooner or later, become a "niche media" for music. Probably sooner, since for a great deal of music consumers, it already has. Even I look at CD's as nothing more than a handy transport to obtain Redbook quality computer files. What else are they good for? Frisbee? Naw... too small.

 

In any case, DSD stands a very good chance of becoming the media of choice for many consumers. Everyone said that computer music was not going to ever take off because of storage costs.

 

Seriously?

 

Storage costs are still decreasing, and probably will continue to do so. Cloud based storage gives access to huge amounts of storage for very little cost, and even that is a just pay for what you use philosophy. DSD is a natural for cloud based storage, such as iTunes Match presents these days.

 

With online compression and de-duplication, it is economical indeed to store 10K copies of the same file, and it is both legal and a good business model. Who knows what the net five years will bring, but I bet DSD audio is coming down the pike much faster than many of us think.

 

In a way, this is similar to the BetaMax / VHS "war" of a few decades ago. It doesn't matter if it is DSD or high resolution PCM that wins, or even if it a lossy compression algorithm like AAC or VBR MP3 that actually wins the war - but since a lot of recording is done in DSD, I suspect that the accountants will object to paying the costs for transcoding it to another format. They will just raise the cost of it, as they raised the cost of CD's over LPs.

 

In any case, the times? They are a changing...

 

-Paul

 

 

Seriously? Where is the "tons of support" from the music labels?

 

By your reference to "all the major players," I assume you are talking about DAC manufacturers, because you cannot be referencing the music industry. If the music side cannot keep up with the DAC hardware side, what is the point?

 

DSD is a niche, within a niche, within a niche (and yes, I am aware of the small handful of DSD download sites, such as 2L, focusing mainly on classical music).

 

You can't even buy PCM 24/96 downloads from HD Tracks and be confident that you are getting the real deal. See Chris' article about the recent Beck release as an example.

[Blake]

Paul:

 

24/96 PCM has been around for years now. Notwithstanding that fact, we as consumers can't even (reliably) purchase popular music in that format. What makes you think things will change in the future, such that DSD will take hold?

 

I try to be an "optimist" audiophile, as this is a hobby I do for fun. I try to stay away from the grumbling and negative comments within our hobby..... except for this music format topic. The current format mess we are in drives me crazy (the music industry and the hardware industry failing to agree on a single hi-rez format and sticking with it).

 

I hope you are right about your predictions for the future, but if I had to bet the mortgage right now, on the question of whether DSD will win the format wars, I would bet the answer is "no".

 

 

 

EDIT: For the most part, I listen primarily to electronic music. It is 2014 and I have a hard enough time finding my favorite electronic music in redbook format, let alone hi-rez anything.

[mayhem13]

Ok Paul.....im going to bookmark this page for reference 5yrs from now! LOL

 

.....either i'll be sending you a very nice bottle of wine with a concession.......or preparing a 'Told You So' soapbox rant.

[Paul R]

Could be, predicting the future is often a fool's exercise. On the other hand, if you forget about "Hi-Res" - the DSD vs PCM can make more sense from a marketing point of view.

 

Of course, MP3 has been promoted heavily, at first to save space and later to a vain attempt to avoid cannibalizing sales of CDs. When people learn that DSD requires new (expensive) hardware and also will mean everyone rebuying everything, as with LP -> CD, well... the rush may start. (grin) Even if the truth behind the belief is less than accurate.

 

(And Dennis, Tony - you guys please avoid pointing out the truth the to record companies please. )

 

 

Paul:

 

24/96 PCM has been around for years now. Notwithstanding that fact, we as consumers can't even (reliably) purchase popular music in that format. What makes you think things will change in the future, such that DSD will take hold?

 

I try to be an "optimist" audiophile, as this is a hobby I do for fun. I try to stay away from the grumbling and negative comments within our hobby..... except for this music format topic. It drives me crazy.

 

I hope you are right about your predictions for the future, but if I had to bet the mortgage right now, on the question of whether DSD will win the format wars, I would bet the answer is "no".

 

EDIT: For the most part, I listen primarily to electronic music. It is 2014 and I have a hard enough time finding my favorite electronic music in redbook format, let alone hi-rez anything.

[wakibaki]

When people learn that DSD requires new (expensive) hardware and also will mean everyone rebuying everything, as with LP -> CD, well... the rush may start. (grin)

 

How cynical is that? A very low opinion of your fellow man. Starting to approach my own.

 

I certainly hope that only a few people will get their fingers burned. It just goes to show how corrupt the electronics giants have become. There was a time when they would have been above the kind of flim-flammery that calls a device with 120 dB SNR a 24-bit DAC. Then some are promoting 32-bit devices. I don't know what the world is coming to.

 

Thanks everybody, for the good wishes.

 

They told me this morning that it's terminal, I've got 6+ months to try to put my affairs in order. Full speed ahead, and damn the torpedoes.

 

Fred

[Guidof]

Fred:

 

My deepest sympathy and support.

 

Warmest regards,

 

Guido F.

[Mike Mcsweeney]

Ok Paul.....im going to bookmark this page for reference 5yrs from now! LOL

 

.....either i'll be sending you a very nice bottle of wine with a concession.......or preparing a 'Told You So' soapbox rant.

 

There will be something even better in 5 years....I would bet every avr, blu-ray, will have dsd within a couple years.

When the price of dsd is the same as pcm, who will look at pcm...probably the same people looking at mp3s today..hah

[Mike Mcsweeney]

Seriously? Where is the "tons of support" from the music labels?

 

ever hear of a company called blue note?

[Mike Mcsweeney]

If UMG (vevo) gets behind it...

 

yawn, naysayers...

[mayhem13]

If UMG (vevo) gets behind it...

 

yawn, naysayers...

 

Mike.......you gotta ask yourself a question. If 99% of the music sold and played is lossy files such as MP3 and the streamed swill from Beats and the like, why would a label bother to offer anything besides a Redbook disc and/or a high res PCM?

 

I sincerely hope you're wishes come true.....audio enthusiasts are long overdue the discrete format they can call their own......oooops......I forgot......we had that with SACD.

[Mike Mcsweeney]

why would a label bother to offer anything besides a Redbook disc and/or a high res PCM?

 

.

because they will go out of business by the companies selling DSD for same price as PCM if they don't get on the wagon...(wink)

[Mike Mcsweeney]

because they will go out of business by the companies selling DSD for same price as PCM if they don't get on the wagon...(wink)

 

Also, DSD is better technology:

The problem is the PCM decoding process itself: whether a classic ladder-DAC or more modern multi-bit Sigma-Delta type, PCM processors universally mask some of the subtle cues in music, and no amount of upgrading, expenditure, tweaking or improvement can fix this fundamentally-flawed system. In order to extract everything hidden in PCM recordings, a completely new processing method is needed.

Their solution? DSD.

Put DSD into DirectStream, you get DSD. Put PCM into DirectStream, you get—DSD. DirectStream converts all digital inputs, including PCM, to pure 1-bit DSD, in an elegantly-simple path. In the process, the PCM feed becomes more linear, less edgy, and never-before-heard musical details are released from all digital audio recordings. Billions of CDs and high-resolution downloads worldwide will gain new life, and be saved from obsolescence -- and recycling bins or landfills.

 

[kumakuma]

Also, DSD is better technology:

The problem is the PCM decoding process itself: whether a classic ladder-DAC or more modern multi-bit Sigma-Delta type, PCM processors universally mask some of the subtle cues in music, and no amount of upgrading, expenditure, tweaking or improvement can fix this fundamentally-flawed system. In order to extract everything hidden in PCM recordings, a completely new processing method is needed.

Their solution? DSD.

Put DSD into DirectStream, you get DSD. Put PCM into DirectStream, you get—DSD. DirectStream converts all digital inputs, including PCM, to pure 1-bit DSD, in an elegantly-simple path. In the process, the PCM feed becomes more linear, less edgy, and never-before-heard musical details are released from all digital audio recordings. Billions of CDs and high-resolution downloads worldwide will gain new life, and be saved from obsolescence -- and recycling bins or landfills.

 

 

Unfortunately pulling your post verbatim out of a company's press release isn't the most persuasive way to make your point:

 

NEWS: PRESS RELEASE – PS Audio “DirectStream” DAC | The High Fidelity Report

[sandyk]

Fred:

 

My deepest sympathy and support.

 

Warmest regards,

 

Guido F.

 

Likewise from me Fred.

My son's mother is in the same situation as you are. Several years ago she insulted my son's wife about her knowledge from a Uni nursing course, and my son and his mother fell out never to make contact again, until a few weeks ago she was admitted to the very ward where my D.I.L. is a nurse. Otherwise she would likely have passed away without my son knowing. My D.I.L. took extra care with her, and also asked if she wanted to see my son and grandchildren . She did, and they are now reunited. As she was admitted due to her heart, she is more likely to go from that, sooner than due to the disease.

I am now not so sure that there isn't more to life.

Kind Regards

Alex

[Mike Mcsweeney]

Unfortunately pulling your post verbatim out of a company's press release isn't the most persuasive way to make your point:

 

why not...you don't trust them?

Ok, try this...

Google search "DSD audio" for past week

https://www.google.com/search?q=dsd+audio&lr=&hl=en&noj=1&tbs=qdr:w&ei=NX0RU6bgEIbmoAT644LIDg&start=20&sa=N&biw=1280&bih=564

 

Do your own research

[kumakuma]

why not...you don't trust them?

Ok, try this...

Google search "DSD audio" for past week

https://www.google.com/search?q=dsd+audio&lr=&hl=en&noj=1&tbs=qdr:w&ei=NX0RU6bgEIbmoAT644LIDg&start=20&sa=N&biw=1280&bih=564

 

Do your own research

 

Actually I was commenting on the fact that you are taking someone else's words and pretending that they are your own.

[Mike Mcsweeney]

who's pretending? I don't know what the heck that stuff means...but it sounds good (lol)

it's pretty obvious to me it was marketing...

[Mike Mcsweeney]

I would not generalize from a sample of two . . .

 

After i heard my first DSD file, i was sold...it's a clear winner to me....and i still have only heard about 6 songs that were created especially for dsd, but those 6 were pretty f'ing amazing...

[Mike Mcsweeney]

I actually wish this stuff would slow down to market though...I have a $50K record collection i want to sell before they come worthless like cd's. I would like a couple years to move them...it's always such a pain to sell on ebay.

[Teresa]

Also, DSD is better technology:

The problem is the PCM decoding process itself: whether a classic ladder-DAC or more modern multi-bit Sigma-Delta type, PCM processors universally mask some of the subtle cues in music, and no amount of upgrading, expenditure, tweaking or improvement can fix this fundamentally-flawed system. In order to extract everything hidden in PCM recordings, a completely new processing method is needed.

Their solution? DSD.

Put DSD into DirectStream, you get DSD. Put PCM into DirectStream, you get—DSD. DirectStream converts all digital inputs, including PCM, to pure 1-bit DSD, in an elegantly-simple path. In the process, the PCM feed becomes more linear, less edgy, and never-before-heard musical details are released from all digital audio recordings. Billions of CDs and high-resolution downloads worldwide will gain new life, and be saved from obsolescence -- and recycling bins or landfills.

 

 

Thanks for this information!

 

Unfortunately pulling your (Mike Mcsweeney) post verbatim out of a company's press release isn't the most persuasive way to make your point:

 

NEWS: PRESS RELEASE – PS Audio “DirectStream” DAC | The High Fidelity Report

 

Thanks for the link, looks like a very interesting product.

 

I thought PS Audio's press release made Mike Mcsweeney's point quite well. My favorite quote was this one "An end to the 30-year PCM cover-up: PS Audio is proud to end the cover-up, and finally, with the revolutionary DirectStream DAC, reveal all the missing information buried within PCM-based digital recordings." Sounds like this means that in the future my high resolution PCM recordings with this kind of conversion to DSD will offer even more sonic realism. I'm all for the continuing evolution of improved digital sound quality and my 5.6MHz DSD downloads are the best sounding recordings on my computer, to bring PCM up to a level near that would really be something.

 

Actually I was commenting on the fact that you (Mike Mcsweeney) are taking someone else's words and pretending that they are your own.

 

The way I read it, he didn't present it as his own because he clearly said "their" solution was DSD, he never said it was "his" solution.

 

Why does it matter to you that he quoted from PS Audio's press release? Mike should have provided the link, other than that I couldn't find anything wrong with the information he presented.