Putting a HiRez streaming solution together that plays every file: with some old gear...

[wappinghigh]

The whole issue of course could be solved overnight if Linn got off their anti DSD rhetoric "high horse"..and just did a USB/SPDIF streamer like we are describing.. But that's for another thread (as you probably know)…

[wappinghigh]

The issue is really simple..

 

Nobody is going to buy one of these streaming devices at anywhere between $500 and $1500 US .. let alone 3 or 4 (to set up multiroom) ...from the other side of the world... unless they know how these devices will work and whether they stream how they want. They need to be able to work out which one of the product line up they need for their particular circumstances.

 

Now it is impossible to determine this from the website.

 

I guess that is why we have this forum.

 

I'll give you a perfect example.

 

With the Res Lab's Invicta

 

This is a DSD capable DAC that has DSD DoP capability via USB, and an SPDIF input (which I'm not sure is DoP compliant)

 

Now does one buy the Mini Server at $499… (now we have found out this has a DLNA option) and plug this into the Invicta's USB port?

Or does one risk buying the $1369 Rendu and run the risk of not being able to stream DSD via SPDIF?

 

And for an older piece of gear like the Benchmark which doesn't have USB. Why would you buy the Rendu at $1369 or whatever it is, when the Mini Server appears to do the exact same thing (sure via USB..but you know what I mean).. for $499?

 

Can you now understand why a potential customer might be confused?

 

Cheers.

[wappinghigh]

^You'd be better off having the one UPnP network device with *both* USB and SPDIF outputs (at the one price), that a customer knows will "just work" either way.. no matter what DAC they connect it to, or how they chose to connect it..

 

Again. I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm simply trying to understand the products better and help you out J. ...From a customer perspective.

[Audio_ELF]

I don't find it ironic because they have designed the APP to work as such. Unlike others who ignore the "universal" part of UPNP and purposefully make apps that only work with their products. I'll be sure and let you know if I find any more apps that work..

Just so people are clear; on non-Audionet systems playlists are limited to 10 items unless you make an in-app purchase (currently £4.99 in UK).

 

Just for clarity; I believe several apps which are branded (for example the Arcam app which is licensed from Songbook) will work with other manufacturers devices, however you just have at least one Arcam device on your network - fair enough really (IMO) as Arcam are paying for the development / licensing the app.

 

Eloise

 

PS. While on device playlists are not specifically part of the UPnP specification; I'm not decided but think that it's probably a better method. The idea that you can have multiple devices all contributing and altering the playlist seems elegant to me. So for instance you can (with an ohMedia / Linn DS system) use LUMIN to create a playlist on your iPad, then later pick up your Android phone and add a new track to the playlist with Kinsky. With traditional UPnP this just doesn't work (afaik) and if you use BubbleUPnP on your Android tablet to programme a playlist, only the same device can be used to edit that playlist - please (politely) correct me if I'm wrong.

[Cebolla]

PS. While on device playlists are not specifically part of the UPnP specification; I'm not decided but think that it's probably a better method. The idea that you can have multiple devices all contributing and altering the playlist seems elegant to me. So for instance you can (with an ohMedia / Linn DS system) use LUMIN to create a playlist on your iPad, then later pick up your Android phone and add a new track to the playlist with Kinsky. With traditional UPnP this just doesn't work (afaik) and if you use BubbleUPnP on your Android tablet to programme a playlist, only the same device can be used to edit that playlist - please (politely) correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, I believe you're right (gosh it's good being my normal polite self again). However, I think the BubbleUPnP app also supports editing of the ohMedia playlists from ohMedia supporting renderers. Or at least it can pick up the 'pseudo' ohMedia ones created by the BubbleUPnP Server (I don't have a real one to play with). Would be interesting to know if using the BubbleUPnP app this way supports gapless with a real ohMedia supporting renderer (unfortunately it doesn't currently with BubbleUPnP Server created/maintained ones).

 

Having those playlists renderer side also means you don't have to keep the app going (and drain the mobile device's battery).

[wappinghigh]

Olive One anybody?

[vortecjr]

The issue is really simple..

 

Nobody is going to buy one of these streaming devices at anywhere between $500 and $1500 US .. let alone 3 or 4 (to set up multiroom) ...from the other side of the world... unless they know how these devices will work and whether they stream how they want. They need to be able to work out which one of the product line up they need for their particular circumstances.

 

Now it is impossible to determine this from the website.

 

I guess that is why we have this forum.

 

I'll give you a perfect example.

 

With the Res Lab's Invicta

 

This is a DSD capable DAC that has DSD DoP capability via USB, and an SPDIF input (which I'm not sure is DoP compliant)

 

Now does one buy the Mini Server at $499… (now we have found out this has a DLNA option) and plug this into the Invicta's USB port?

Or does one risk buying the $1369 Rendu and run the risk of not being able to stream DSD via SPDIF?

 

And for an older piece of gear like the Benchmark which doesn't have USB. Why would you buy the Rendu at $1369 or whatever it is, when the Mini Server appears to do the exact same thing (sure via USB..but you know what I mean).. for $499?

 

Can you now understand why a potential customer might be confused?

 

Cheers.

 

wap, you have a very specific use requirements. My feeling is that these units should do the trick, but some limitations could apply. You may have to be flexible. For example: The Sonic Orbiter is really intended to work with LMS on the network. This combination is very stable, supports gapless, supports multiple device streaming, supports plenty of formats, supports internet radio, supports streaming services and so on. It supports direct DSD/DoP, but currently you have to have a Vortexbox based server on the network. The other modes provided as extra features for people to use as needed. Chris, has also tested several Rendu's on his network with success. The Invicta uses an FPGA to process signals from all the inputs so the DoP feature could be added, but you really need to get with them on this feature. I can help you tees the feature on that device when you update the unit. I can't help you decide whack unit to buy because it really depends on how much you want to spend. Understand that the do not do similar things. One is a USB output and the other is a SPDIF output. Also, how they do what they do is very different internally. My "guess" is that you want the Sonic Orbiter at 499 and you will want to use LMS:)

 

Jesus R

[wappinghigh]

^ Ok J. Thanks for the helpful information. Cheers.

[vortecjr]

^You'd be better off having the one UPnP network device with *both* USB and SPDIF outputs (at the one price), that a customer knows will "just work" either way.. no matter what DAC they connect it to, or how they chose to connect it..

 

Again. I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm simply trying to understand the products better and help you out J. ...From a customer perspective.

 

wap, I don't have any plans to add that feature to our product:) Purchase a simple USB to SPDIF convert such as the SOtM dX-USB-HD or M2Tech hiFace V2, Halide Design Bridge. I would give you a combo deal if that helps...

 

Jesus R

[Audio_ELF]

Those of a do it yourself bent may be interested in dBpoweramp Renaissance

 

From the creator of the dbpoweramp ripping software this is (amongst other things) a Windows based UPnP renderer supporting Linn DS / ohMedia extensions.

 

Would run on a CAPS Topanga (Atom) type computer or perhaps a NUC in a fanless case.

 

Eloise

[wappinghigh]

^ Nice. Thanks for that.. Some dude on the MinimServer forum said he's turned a Rasp Pi into one as well.. but that is beyond me…

 

It's all happening.. This *is* definitely the CA space to be..

[vortecjr]

Just so people are clear; on non-Audionet systems playlists are limited to 10 items unless you make an in-app purchase (currently £4.99 in UK).

 

Just for clarity; I believe several apps which are branded (for example the Arcam app which is licensed from Songbook) will work with other manufacturers devices, however you just have at least one Arcam device on your network - fair enough really (IMO) as Arcam are paying for the development / licensing the app.

 

Eloise

 

PS. While on device playlists are not specifically part of the UPnP specification; I'm not decided but think that it's probably a better method. The idea that you can have multiple devices all contributing and altering the playlist seems elegant to me. So for instance you can (with an ohMedia / Linn DS system) use LUMIN to create a playlist on your iPad, then later pick up your Android phone and add a new track to the playlist with Kinsky. With traditional UPnP this just doesn't work (afaik) and if you use BubbleUPnP on your Android tablet to programme a playlist, only the same device can be used to edit that playlist - please (politely) correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Eloise, I purchased the app and a few of my customers have already done the same. I have no issue supporting them and I applaud them for making it work. On a side note...I have no intention to reinvent the wheel or license an app and put my name on it. I'm taking a cue from another audio company who got in over there head only to subsequently run into a bunch of trouble. Also, my customers are decided on what is the best way to do things so having options makes sense. Back on point...if some companies want to lock up there apps so be it.

 

My gut feeling that I can add to an existing playlist with DLNA, but I would have to test it to be sure. An on board playlist is limited to the space on the unit. With LMS and the Sonic Orbiter you could load an entire music folder if you're feeling brave:) My point is that all these things have pros and cons and it is what it is....

 

Jesus R

[Audio_ELF]

Jesus, hopefully you will take this the way I intend it which is politely...

 

Eloise, I purchased the app and a few of my customers have already done the same. I have no issue supporting them and I applaud them for making it work.

I quite understand that; I just felt that you should make it clear that (a) this is an app from another company and (b) that it is not free if you wish to use (what I would consider) a major part of the functionality.

 

On a side note...I have no intention to reinvent the wheel or license an app and put my name on it. I'm taking a cue from another audio company who got in over there head only to subsequently run into a bunch of trouble. Also, my customers are decided on what is the best way to do things so having options makes sense.

I don't think anyone is criticising you for limiting the pies your company gets involved with; all we are saying is you need to be clear in what you are saying and open with information which can help people make a decision.

 

Back on point...if some companies want to lock up there apps so be it.

With respect; mentioning it in the first place is criticising a competitor (to my mind). Especially in business I always think unless you have something good to say (or are correcting false information) it's best to say nothing than say anything negative ... But then I live in a country where advertising strictly limits what you can say about a competitor!

 

My gut feeling that I can add to an existing playlist with DLNA, but I would have to test it to be sure. An on board playlist is limited to the space on the unit.

Just to be clear I specifically mean creating a playlist on one device and editing it on another. My experience has been that I create a playlist on Songbook on the iPad then add to it with Songbook on the iPhone unless I am using ohMedia / Linn DS renderers; but that may be a limitation of Songbook

 

With LMS and the Sonic Orbiter you could load an entire music folder if you're feeling brave:)

This has nothing to do with UPnP / DLNA though...

 

My point is that all these things have pros and cons and it is what it is....

Your point is well taken and you have to make design decisions for your products. That isn't to say that companies making other design decisions are wrong though; nor is it wrong for a customer to look for other solutions or feels things could be different.

 

Again I hope this reply is read with it in mind I am not criticising you personally just (I hope) trying to put an alternative point of view / offer an alternative interpretation of how people read what you write as opposed to how you think people will interpret it (the English and Americans; two people separated by a common language).

 

Eloise

[Audio_ELF]

Jesus ... If I may I'd like to comment on a small portion of this post...

Understand that the do not do similar things. One is a USB output and the other is a SPDIF output. Also, how they do what they do is very different internally.

If I can say so: I feel this statement is at the heart of where there may be a problem.

 

You say "they do no do similar things" but to people reading your website that is not a clear message - they see Ethernet input and SPDIF (or i2s or analogue) output on one device and USB on the other. People reading don't understand the difference.

 

I would hazard that the fact they both look very similar doesn't help either.

 

Please note I'm not trying to say that they are similar; but you should understand that is the perception.

 

Eloise

[vortecjr]

Jesus, hopefully you will take this the way I intend it which is politely...

 

 

I quite understand that; I just felt that you should make it clear that (a) this is an app from another company and (b) that it is not free if you wish to use (what I would consider) a major part of the functionality.

 

 

I don't think anyone is criticising you for limiting the pies your company gets involved with; all we are saying is you need to be clear in what you are saying and open with information which can help people make a decision.

 

 

With respect; mentioning it in the first place is criticising a competitor (to my mind). Especially in business I always think unless you have something good to say (or are correcting false information) it's best to say nothing than say anything negative ... But then I live in a country where advertising strictly limits what you can say about a competitor!

 

 

Just to be clear I specifically mean creating a playlist on one device and editing it on another. My experience has been that I create a playlist on Songbook on the iPad then add to it with Songbook on the iPhone unless I am using ohMedia / Linn DS renderers; but that may be a limitation of Songbook

 

 

This has nothing to do with UPnP / DLNA though...

 

 

Your point is well taken and you have to make design decisions for your products. That isn't to say that companies making other design decisions are wrong though; nor is it wrong for a customer to look for other solutions or feels things could be different.

 

Again I hope this reply is read with it in mind I am not criticising you personally just (I hope) trying to put an alternative point of view / offer an alternative interpretation of how people read what you write as opposed to how you think people will interpret it (the English and Americans; two people separated by a common language).

 

Eloise

 

I try to be clear in what I'm saying and open with information. However, you also have to understand that every company has secrets and I don't always want to tell my competition what I am up to. In addition, I have licensing agreements that keep me from freely sharing everything. BTW I did not know that there was a pay upgrade on the AudioNet APP until you said it. I bought it to try it, but it was after the fact. The limitation on the free version seems reasonable to me and works fine. If you want some specific information you can always e-mail me.

 

Jesus R

[vortecjr]

Jesus ... If I may I'd like to comment on a small portion of this post...

 

If I can say so: I feel this statement is at the heart of where there may be a problem.

 

You say "they do no do similar things" but to people reading your website that is not a clear message - they see Ethernet input and SPDIF (or i2s or analogue) output on one device and USB on the other. People reading don't understand the difference.

 

I would hazard that the fact they both look very similar doesn't help either.

 

Please note I'm not trying to say that they are similar; but you should understand that is the perception.

 

Eloise

 

Eloise, how would use describe them? One is SPDIF output and the other one is USB output....I can't be more specific than that. I can tell you I get hundreds of emails from customers and they don't have an issues telling them apart. I get having to explain DoP and LVDS HDMI i2s, but not SPDIF vs USB. The number one question is which one is better. That is a loaded question so I have to find out what they want to do and how much they want to spend and so on. It's a process, but one or two emails is usually all it takes.

 

Jesus R

[Audio_ELF]

Jesus ... thank you for your replies.

 

Some of this would perhaps better in private but I am unable to send you a private message...

I try to be clear in what I'm saying and open with information. However, you also have to understand that every company has secrets and I don't always want to tell my competition what I am up to. In addition, I have licensing agreements that keep me from freely sharing everything.

Yes I completely understand the company secrets aspect. What I don't understand is where the owner / joint owner of a company feels it is appropriate to respond to questions in sarcastic manner which (and this is purely my opinion) you have in the past. A simple "I'm sorry I can't comment on future plans" is all you need.

 

BTW I did not know that there was a pay upgrade on the AudioNet APP until you said it. I bought it to try it, but it was after the fact. The limitation on the free version seems reasonable to me and works fine. If you want some specific information you can always e-mail me.

I guess it depends how you use it... to me not being able to put the whole of Pink Floyd: The Wall into a play list is as big an issue as not being able to play Dark Side of the Moon gaplessly. As I say it depends how you look at things. If you only ever play concerti and symphonies then you only need 4 tracks in your playlist.

 

Eloise

[Cebolla]

Those of a do it yourself bent may be interested in dBpoweramp Renaissance

 

From the creator of the dbpoweramp ripping software this is (amongst other things) a Windows based UPnP renderer supporting Linn DS / ohMedia extensions.

 

Would run on a CAPS Topanga (Atom) type computer or perhaps a NUC in a fanless case.

 

Eloise

Thanks for that Eloise. I'll be good to have a native ohMedia extension supporting renderer to test with.

[ErikM]

I find this whole back and forth a bit funny.. Anyway I actually voted with my $$ and bought a Orbiter ( still waiting for it though ;-) I have 4 zones of Sonos in my house.. they work fabulously.. I bought the Orbiter to do HiRes in my main system since Sonos can't, and the PS Audio Bridge is a nightmare ( sold it off) I have no issue with Sonos as a multi source multi zone system, in fact I'll say it's the best out there for this application. One of my zone players was modified by W4S and on 16/44 sounds really close to the PSA Bridge.. if Sonos would do Hi Res I'd be set.. But they don't and most likely never will, hence the Orbiter.. I decided to do the Orbiter over the Redue because I feel that more DAC's are going USB, and I think it's a bit more future proof.. anyway that's just me..

 

Oh and I agree that Sonore's web site could be a bit more informative but I also understand that it does do what it needs to.. it's just a bit basic..

 

I also really like that Jesus as a manufacturer spends time here and interacts.. But ragging him isn't going to accomplish anything, except to piss him off and to loose his input..

[Audio_ELF]

Erik ... I'm glad you are happy with your Sonore product.

 

However in response to...

I also really like that Jesus as a manufacturer spends time here and interacts.. But ragging him isn't going to accomplish anything, except to piss him off and to loose his input..

I would like to point out that a lot of the so called "ragging" you refer to is in response to Jesus's comments. No one is hostile about his products though sometimes we find his replies less than satisfactory in either tone or content (and at times both). As you will read above, sometimes he would be much better off (IMO) replying with "I'm sorry but I cannot comment on future plans" rather than the (again IMO) unprofessional responses. I'm sorry but telling someone to "can go fly a kite" is totally unacceptable for a professional - though perhaps that's just my English sensibilities.

 

Eloise

[Paul R]

I'm sorry but telling someone to "can go fly a kite" is totally unacceptable for a professional - though perhaps that's just my English sensibilities.

 

Nope- goes against my very American sensibilities too, albeit, I do see where Jesus might feel he was provoked. He makes some really good stuff, and if you agree with the decisions he made in the products, they are hard to beat dollar for dollar. But they are certainly not for everyone.

 

-Paul

[Audio_ELF]

Nope- goes against my very American sensibilities too, albeit, I do see where Jesus might feel he was provoked. He makes some really good stuff, and if you agree with the decisions he made in the products, they are hard to beat dollar for dollar. But they are certainly not for everyone.

That's my point Paul... The products are good and he should defend the decisions he made but defend them in a professional manner...

 

Eloise

[The Computer Audiophile]

Those of a do it yourself bent may be interested in dBpoweramp Renaissance

 

From the creator of the dbpoweramp ripping software this is (amongst other things) a Windows based UPnP renderer supporting Linn DS / ohMedia extensions.

 

Would run on a CAPS Topanga (Atom) type computer or perhaps a NUC in a fanless case.

 

Eloise

That product has been in Beta for seven years, correct?

[Audio_ELF]

That product has been in Beta for seven years, correct?

Well the first post is in May 2008 - so only 5 years and 6 months - and the latest update appears to be earlier this year. But what has that got to do with anything - from what I see "beta" is the designation that Spoon gives to things he isn't selling commercially for whatever reason. It's an alternative option in a discussion about various things!

 

I've not used it in anger but from what I have seen its pretty stable.

 

I'm sorry Chris but what is your point? Am I not allowed to post information about things which compete with Sonore? This is the second time you have made a snide and (to my mind) unprofessional comment about something I've posted which could be seen as a competitor to Sonore!

 

Eloise

[The Computer Audiophile]

Well the first post is in May 2008 - so only 5 years and 6 months - and the latest update appears to be earlier this year. But what has that got to do with anything - from what I see "beta" is the designation that Spoon gives to things he isn't selling commercially for whatever reason. It's an alternative option in a discussion about various things!

 

I've not used it in anger but from what I have seen its pretty stable.

 

I'm sorry Chris but what is your point? Am I not allowed to post information about things which compete with Sonore? This is the second time you have made a snide and (to my mind) unprofessional comment about something I've posted which could be seen as a competitor to Sonore!

 

Eloise

I asked a simple question Eloise.