Putting a HiRez streaming solution together that plays every file: with some old gear...

[Audio_ELF]

I asked a simple question Eloise.

I'm sorry but it didn't come across that way...

 

Perhaps a politer reply ... Yes it was first posted about 5 years ago - Spoon appears to use "Beta" in the same way Steve considered the Apple TV a hobby project!

[wappinghigh]

I find this whole back and forth a bit funny.. Anyway I actually voted with my $$ and bought a Orbiter ( still waiting for it though ;-) I have 4 zones of Sonos in my house.. they work fabulously.. I bought the Orbiter to do HiRes in my main system since Sonos can't... if Sonos would do Hi Res I'd be set.. But they don't and most likely never will, hence the Orbiter..

 

 

Erik, this is precisely why I started this thread. I am exactly in the same position as you: wanting to upgrade to 24/192 and beyond (hopefully DSD)

 

I've proven to myself via single room streaming that this is definitely possible… even multichannel to the Oppo:

 

But in this quest, there is a constant lack of information or what I'll term "pseudo" information from manufacturers about what can and can't be done.

 

DSD is full of it..

 

so is UPnP/DLNA… take a look at Oppo: this player is advertised as DLNA compatible, but those that have pushed it to it's limit have discovered otherwise..

 

The industry continues to think it is OK to let consumers do the file compatibility "testing" for them.

 

No manufacturer has yet to prove to me they can put it all together and show me that it *can* be done.

 

Linn, Bluesound, Sonore, nobody.

 

Maybe that's because it can't be done.

 

Well not to give a customer the "Sonos type" of multiroom experience anyway

 

Cheers

 

Wap

[Audio_ELF]

One thing I have found with LMS (for example with the Orbiter) is that (if I have worked it right) each device is configurable as being DoP capable or not so you can have 3 Orbiters; 1 connected to a DoP DAC, the other two connected to PCM only and not worry as if you play a DSD file to the PCM device it's converted to PCM by the server; but with the DoP DAC you get unmolested DSD.

 

Eloise

[wappinghigh]

^great! Thanks for that. This is precisely what I'm on about. I know Sonore is not advertised as multiroom, but all I'm saying is I wish J could realise his products potential, do some testing for us, release this sort of detail and link in some youtubes from his website to show us what his fabulous gear is capable of.

[ErikM]

What exactly is wrong with using a Sonos system for the multi room since that's what is designed to do and a higher end product for the main system??

 

I've yet to find anything that's as easy to use and is as stable as Sonos for multi room.. It syncs perfectly has a bazillion streaming choices, great user interface, and it's reasonably priced.

[MikeJazz]

^You'd be better off having the one UPnP network device with *both* USB and SPDIF outputs (at the one price), that a customer knows will "just work" either way.. no matter what DAC they connect it to, or how they chose to connect it..

 

Again. I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm simply trying to understand the products better and help you out J. ...From a customer perspective.

 

X2...

 

You are not the first coming with that idea, but Jesus is not yet convinced.

Flexibility is key...

designing a product too tight with a specific server (LMS) is, imho, not a very good idea...

LMS is limited in metadata richness and navigation, comparing to minimserver, for example...

[Audio_ELF]

LMS is limited in metadata richness and navigation, comparing to minimserver, for example...

While not free; using Erland's Multi-library; custom scan and custom browse plug-ins will allow the richness of navigation offered by MinimServe to be added back in.

 

Eloise

[Audio_ELF]

What exactly is wrong with using a Sonos system for the multi room since that's what is designed to do and a higher end product for the main system??

 

I've yet to find anything that's as easy to use and is as stable as Sonos for multi room.. It syncs perfectly has a bazillion streaming choices, great user interface, and it's reasonably priced.

I think the point wappinghigh was starting off with was following on from a point Chris made in his last vodcast: that one main issue with DSD is that it has limited support and therefore he has to think "ahh, can I play this file here?"; the same being true of a High Res file with the Sonos: you need your high res file for your "main" system and a low res version for Sonos multi room

 

So wouldn't it be great if you could have a number of "renderers" around the house; each connected to a DAC of a suitable level for the equipment in the room; each of which will play ANY file in your library.

 

So (for example) there is a renderer in the music room connected to a Chord QBD76HDSD; in the HT room perhaps connected to an Arcam AVR750; in the kitchen a set of Kef X100A; in the bedroom to a Meridian Director and Rega Brio-R and then in the guest room connected to a Audioquest Firefly and Audioengine A2 speakers.

 

Anyone can use their iOS or Android device and select any music; happy that it will play back without any worry.

 

Eloise

[ErikM]

That's what I pretty much have.. Sonos feeds a W4S Dac in the Kitchen system, a Sonos feeds a Dac Magic for the Outdoor speakers, a Sonos feeds Sony ES AVR for Home Theater system, a W4S modified unit feeds PWD MKII in the main system.. The Orbiter will feed the PWD in the main system so I can listen to my Hi Res versions on that system.. No real reason for the Hi Res stuff in the Kitchen system although it is a very nice little system :-)

[Audio_ELF]

That's what I pretty much have..

Yes: but if you select a high res file on the Sonos; does it play? Or do you have to maintain a "Sonos friendly" library separate from your main library?

 

This is especially true of DSD files (for anyone that uses them).

 

Eloise

[Paul R]

So wouldn't it be great if you could have a number of "renderers" around the house; each connected to a DAC of a suitable level for the equipment in the room; each of which will play ANY file in your library.

 

That's pretty close to what I enjoy these days, though the "renderer" is a copy of JRMC on a Mac Mini. Four of them to be precise, as well as one on a PC and a test one on a old PC running Linux. It still has flaws, but it is a lot closer than Sonos or SBTs or even Macs with Airplay got me. The sole issue is that for everything to be seamless, I need to put the music on a local disk, which means I synch four libraries from the SAN once per day. Most people would not have that option, but I suspect a good NAS would also serve. That is done only to ensure I don't have any gaps in my gapless playback - and that is because I use memory play exclusively for music. (grin)

 

Music wise, it plays pretty much everything. And we can use JRemote to keep control of it.

 

Video, on the other hand, which two of the four minis provides, can stream over the network without incidence. That is nice, as it means a large number of our DVDs are ripped to disk and can stream anywhere.

 

We also stream to our phones, iPads, and laptops. The issues we have with video are simple. Video is a bit clumsy to manage with JRMC, even using JRemote, Netflix and iTunes look much better on the ATV3, and we don't have the means or the space to RIP blue ray, and we vastly prefer Bluray quality over anything else.

 

-Paul

[wappinghigh]

^intetesting set up you have there Paul. MinimServer will (allegedly) be seen as a UPnP server within JRiver after their (MinimServer's) next firmware upgrade. Which means you could potentially shift your library to a NAS very easily.... I'm after a more plug and play solution. Cheers. Wap.

[Paul R]

No, I don't think so. JRMC is already a server and can actually stream to other instance and DLNA renderers like the Oppo and the WD Live devices scattered about. It can also dream from devices, like for instance the WD Live devices.

 

Those devices all have a few problems still, like file formats and gapless playback. JRMC can of course, transcode for them, but - why bother?

 

By the way, the master library is on the SAN, it is just available to the JRMC servers as a NAS device. Like I said, there are some issues with JRMC and NAS devices - meaning it will pause between tracks when you use memory play.

 

-Paul

 

^intetesting set up you have there Paul. MinimServer will (allegedly) be seen as a UPnP server within JRiver after their (MinimServer's) next firmware upgrade. Which means you could potentially shift your library to a NAS very easily.... I'm after a more plug and play solution. Cheers. Wap.

[ErikM]

Actually it's rather simple to keep a separate Hi-Res folder , I append the files with -HR so when I see it listed I know that Sonos won't play it.. easy cheesy !

 

 

Yes: but if you select a high res file on the Sonos; does it play? Or do you have to maintain a "Sonos friendly" library separate from your main library?

 

This is especially true of DSD files (for anyone that uses them).

 

Eloise

[wappinghigh]

^ Ok. Right ErikM....so how frustrating is that for you?

 

You are just getting into your favourite symphony, rock anthem, blues night on the HiRez gear and wife/girlfriend/boyfriend wants you do turn it down, but you don't want to..so you decide you have to move rooms.. . so then you do what?.. Don';t you find it annoying you just can't pick up the track elsewhere..?

 

Or wifey/boyfriend doesn't understand what "HR" means and wonders in frustration why the track won;t play on Sonos..

 

Or you want to listen to "that" particular track you have just paid $39.95 from HDTracks in bed.. but Uh oh… won't play there..

 

You can't seriously tell us you wouldn't be tempted to consider the purchase of a 24/192 Sonos (if there was such an upgrade) or equivalent?

[Audio_ELF]

Actually it's rather simple to keep a separate Hi-Res folder , I append the files with -HR so when I see it listed I know that Sonos won't play it.. easy cheesy !

While this works for you - as Chris was commenting in his discussion with Leon from Audio Advice; its not seamless.

 

As you say you have to keep a separtate Hi Res folder. Then of course when you realise that the metadata of something is wrong ... you have to edit multiple versions. I've already started to come up against that while having a FLAC24 version and a ALAC RBCD version of some music.

 

Also, and this steps back a small amount, Sonos is fine for the typical "pop" music Album / Track / Artist metadata but (afaik) doesn't support metadata such as Composer, Conductor, Orchestra and Work / Movement.

 

Eloise

[Cebolla]

The conventional way of sorting out UPnP/DLNA renderer file support anomalies is to tackle it server side by setting up separate profiles for the renderers, transcoding as necessary. Unfortunately, I don't believe the current crop of decent music UPnP servers such as MinimServer & Asset UPnP are able to do this fully and it won't solve the problem for proprietary systems like Sonos (unless they have a seamless UPnP/DLNA server import function or full support).

 

So, perhaps we should be concentrating our efforts on the backend, rather than the front, for a possible solution.

[Audio_ELF]

The conventional way of sorting out UPnP/DLNA renderer file support anomalies is to tackle it server side by setting up seperate profiles for the renderers, transcoding as necessary. Unfortunately, I don't believe the current crop of decent music UPnP servers such as MinimServer & Asset UPnP are able to do this fully and it won't solve the problem for proprietary systems like Sonos (unless they have a seamless UPnP/DLNA server import function or full support).

I don't know about Asset; but I know MinimServer doesn't support profiles for renderers and only transcodes lossless to WAV (or WAV24).

 

It's another reason I like LMS...

 

Eloise

[MikeJazz]

While not free; using Erland's Multi-library; custom scan and custom browse plug-ins will allow the richness of navigation offered by MinimServe to be added back in.

 

Eloise

 

Good point and thanks for remembering Eloise.

[Cebolla]

I don't know about Asset; but I know MinimServer doesn't support profiles for renderers and only transcodes lossless to WAV (or WAV24).

 

It's another reason I like LMS...

 

Eloise

LMS does support UPnP, with the plugin - so definitely worth a try. Other UPnP servers with a good profiling/transcoding reputation are Serviio & Mediatomb (though not sure how 'alive' Mediatomb is these days).

[Audio_ELF]

LMS does support UPnP, with the plugin - so definitely worth a try. Other UPnP servers with a good profiling/transcoding reputation are Serviio & Mediatomb (though not sure how 'alive' Mediatomb is these days).

But, (afaik) if using LMS with UPnP you don't have renderer profiles.

 

Plex works well as a transcoding UPnP server too.

 

Eloise

[Cebolla]

But, (afaik) if using LMS with UPnP you don't have renderer profiles.

Shame. Wasn't there the Whitebear media server, that allowed use of the old Squeezebox server by UPnP players and did some sort of transcoding? That might still be going with an updated version for LMS, perhaps?

[Audio_ELF]

Shame. Wasn't there the Whitebear media server, that allowed use of the old Squeezebox server by UPnP players and did some sort of transcoding? That might still be going with an updated version for LMS, perhaps?

Yes the UPnP server is still there - what I mean is you can't set it so (for example) your Linn renderer gets upto 24/192; your Lumin gets 24/192 and DSD and the Sonos only gets 16/44.1

 

Eloise

[ErikM]

It's really never been an issue... Wife just listens to Pandora most of the time.. and She's pretty bright I told her that anything that has -HR after it won't play .. play the album that doesn't have -HR after it.. not rocket science

 

Would I like a Sonos Hi Res player f'ing A I would but it won't happen so this is the next best thing, and honestly for the 'House" system I just want it simple and stable.. When it's 2am, I'm hammered sitting by the pool I don't need audiophile I need that it just works and it sounds good.. and Sonos does that..

 

As for keeping a second folder for Hi Res, sure it would be nice not to have to edit metadata, but really it's not that much of a hassle .. I have WAY more aggravating things in my life to deal with.. I actually find messing around with this stuff at times to be therapeutic :-)

 

^ Ok. Right ErikM....so how frustrating is that for you?

 

You are just getting into your favourite symphony, rock anthem, blues night on the HiRez gear and wife/girlfriend/boyfriend wants you do turn it down, but you don't want to..so you decide you have to move rooms.. . so then you do what?.. Don';t you find it annoying you just can't pick up the track elsewhere..?

 

Or wifey/boyfriend doesn't understand what "HR" means and wonders in frustration why the track won;t play on Sonos..

 

Or you want to listen to "that" particular track you have just paid $39.95 from HDTracks in bed.. but Uh oh… won't play there..

 

You can't seriously tell us you wouldn't be tempted to consider the purchase of a 24/192 Sonos (if there was such an upgrade) or equivalent?

[Audio_ELF]

It's really never been an issue... Wife just listens to Pandora most of the time.. and She's pretty bright I told her that anything that has -HR after it won't play .. play the album that doesn't have -HR after it.. not rocket science

Erik ... as you say it's not an issue to you ... but having Sonos alongside a "audiophile" solution isn't a solution to the problem of being able to play any file in your library on any device.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that yes work arounds like this work ... but wouldn't it be nicer if you didn't have to come up with work arounds. So far a bunch of SotM Mini-Servers and perhaps the Orbiter for the HQ room look to be the closest I have come across to a "it just works" solution.

 

Eloise