ATTENTION Current Mac mini/A+ users: Boot Mavericks from an SD card, load a RAMdisk, dismount your internal SATA drives, and pour a drink for the musicians walking out of your speakers!

[wwaldmanfan]

Mike -

 

- Is there a big sound quality difference between boot from an SD and boot from SSD?

 

- You can quit Finder if you copy over the music first.

 

@ Jud--

Thanks for your response. I thought the SQ with the OSX on the SDXC card and the music files on RAMdisk sounded quite spectacular. However, the glacially slow operations of the computer made it frustrating and impractical.

 

It sounds almost as good from the SSD. If someone can give me a solution to the slow card problem, I would go back to that, but, otherwise, I am more than happy with this arrangement.

 

I don't know what "New Year's" surprises Damien Plisson has in store for us, but I am looking forward to finding out!

[Daudio]

I noticed that the screen saver was turning on... maybe that had something to do with the freezing problem. I'll have to look at the CAD Optimization script to see if there's a terminal command for disabling screensaver.

 

 

G2, No need for the script, just go to System Preferences > Desktop & Screen Saver and set it to "Never". Done.

[sandyk]

It sounds almost as good from the SSD.

 

I would be surprised if Alex C and John Swenson's new linear PSUs for the mini didn't bridge that gap.

[eltee00]

Bringing this topic back up. Anyone have an idea what is the best setup to run iTunes integration mode for Audirvana? To me I really enjoy the convenience of iTunes integration mode and choosing songs on the remote app on my ipad. However, the difference between playlist mode and iTunes integration mode is still noticeable, even more so if I'm running Audirvana from RAM disk.

 

Also, is there anyway for Audirvana to load from a copy of iTunes within the ramdisk instead of from the OS?

[Ipoci]

…

 

a) Cloned my Mavericks boot partition to a 32GB SDHC card (format to Mac OS Extended/Journaled w/GUID partition table);

b) Assigned that card as the boot drive in System Prefs>Startup Disk; Booted back up from the SD card;

c) In Disk Utility I unmounted both of my internal hard drive partitions (I have a Mavericks and a ML partition);

d) Made a 1GB RAM disk (my machine has just 8GB RAM at present); Copied favorite test tracks to it;

e) Ejected external FW drive that holds my big music library; Unplugged FW cable from computer and unplugged drive PS from wall;

f) Lauched A+ in Playlist mode (cloned SD card of course nicely retains all prior settings from HD); Deleted current tracks from playlist; Dragged test tracks in from RAMdisk Finder window;

g) Quit Finder (just one of my usual tweaks, doesn't do much;

h) Played tracks;

i) Soiled my pants.

 

...

 

Regards,

ALEX C.

 

Thanks Alex for sharing.

 

I sold my BeagleBone NAA last week, so while waiting for a new micro computer to play with, I remember this thread and decided to do a quick test …

 

I boot one of MBP using it's internal SSD, I quickly create a 4GB ramdisk ( 8GB system ), then I copied two CD's into RAM disk, then imported files into iTunes … play … I soiled my pants as well. Wow, what a sound ! It's just Maverick, iTunes and a zero cost RAMdisk.

 

During last two nights I shuffled some of well known CD's and I'm still astonished. I also loaded the same 3-4 tracks into different media as internal SSD, an USB key, an SDXC card and RAM disk … then I imported all of them into iTunes database, so basically you have the same track name appearing 4 times without any other data … shuffle play … I'm always able to find if track play from RAMdisk.

 

Have you got any technical explaination for that ?

 

Cheers. Massimiliano

[mayhem13]

Thanks Alex for sharing.

 

I sold my BeagleBone NAA last week, so while waiting for a new micro computer to play with, I remember this thread and decided to do a quick test …

 

I boot one of MBP using it's internal SSD, I quickly create a 4GB ramdisk ( 8GB system ), then I copied two CD's into RAM disk, then imported files into iTunes … play … I soiled my pants as well. Wow, what a sound ! It's just Maverick, iTunes and a zero cost RAMdisk.

 

During last two nights I shuffled some of well known CD's and I'm still astonished. I also loaded the same 3-4 tracks into different media as internal SSD, an USB key, an SDXC card and RAM disk … then I imported all of them into iTunes database, so basically you have the same track name appearing 4 times without any other data … shuffle play … I'm always able to find if track play from RAMdisk.

 

Have you got any technical explaination for that ?

 

Cheers. Massimiliano

 

No, but maybe get a box of Depends!

[Superdad]

During last two nights I shuffled some of well known CD's and I'm still astonished. I also loaded the same 3-4 tracks into different media as internal SSD, an USB key, an SDXC card and RAM disk … then I imported all of them into iTunes database, so basically you have the same track name appearing 4 times without any other data … shuffle play … I'm always able to find if track play from RAMdisk.

 

Have you got any technical explaination for that ?

 

Cheers. Massimiliano

 

Dear Massimiliano:

Very glad you are enjoying the free tricks!

 

Based on what I found with different hard drive interfaces, I really do think that the explanation is somewhere in the realm of very small power supply/interface processor noise spikes/distortions creeping into the computer (likely on the difficult to isolate ground plane), and also with simpler storage interfaces (SDXC card and RAM disk) not generating much of the same and/or not demanding attention from the CPU or bus processors.

 

Although this all still falls in the category of "hard to believe" (but easy to hear on some systems), I think it has some logic to it and am confident that if an engineer were to put sensitive probes in the right places then these low-level interferences would be readily visible on an analyzer screen.

 

Best regards,

Alex C.

[speavler]

Alex, I remember reading your other thread where you stream from one mac mini to another over ethernet with comparable results to this solution. have you tried streaming from a NAS hooked directly to the mini (no switch)? seems that could be comparable.

[Superdad]

Hi Speavier:

For late model (2010/11/12) Mac minis which use the same controller chip and bus for Ethernet as for their SDXC slots, I have been able to (with some tweaks--direct attachment, high MTU setting, BlueJeans/Belden Cat6a cbl.) get a shared drive to sound as good as a local SD card.

But RAM-disk (for music storage/playback) still trumps them both. It is the very inconvenient gold standard.

 

I do not have a NAS to directly attach, but I agree that it could hold promise, and I hope someone will try that and report back.

 

For me it would be a functional problem as I use my DAC-attached music mini headless. Its direct connection to my desktop computer provides both the music library share and my means of screen sharing for control.

The only way I could avoid giving that up with a directly attached NAS would be if I moved the Thunderbolt>Ethernet adapter (now used on my desktop to provide 2nd-ethernet internet access) to the music mini. But: a)my 2010 music mini does not have a Thunderbolt port; b)that would then activate more chip/bus activity.

 

I still want to play around with other file sharing protocols to see if I can improve on SQ. The good Ethernet cable made a nice difference and also allowed for the 9000 MTU connection--which also made a subtle difference. That leads me to believe that a more efficient protocol could be better. Seems crazy, but when I test these things I am very careful not to fool myself. (And the fact that others are able to repeat my results should lend credence--at least to some…)

[Ipoci]

Dear Massimiliano:

Very glad you are enjoying the free tricks!

 

...

 

Best regards,

Alex C.

 

I did some additional tests … the magic has something to do with latest combination of Maverick + iTunes ( configured to always upsample all music to the highest possible rate supported by DAC ).

 

A similar config with Mountain Lion do not shows the same outstanding performance, I think Maverick introduced some kind of optimization with iTunes …

 

Ok, using RAMdisk has some drawbacks … looks like using a turntable … but sound is special

 

Have a nice day, Massimiliano

[BobL]

I would be surprised if Alex C and John Swenson's new linear PSUs for the mini didn't bridge that gap.

 

 

My post may not seem immediately relevant to this comment, but see the last paragraph.

 

I have been thinking about trying to externally power the SSD in my Mini (2012 i5), and it seemed that Superdad(Alex C)'s RAM disk experiment would give me an indication of the maximum improvement I could expect from doing this. I have reported my findings about the improvements from external powering of the fan in a Mini in tranz’s thread

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/mac-mini-version-computer-audiophile-pocket-server-music-server-step-step-17666/index6.html

 

I probably started this project with too much optimism, so there have been some disappointments, even though I do agree that RAM disk gives the best sound. I hadn't read wwaldmanfan's comments, and I started with cheap grade 6 SDHC cards. At first I thought the Mini had gone dead on me, but it was just that everything was impossibly slow. I remember the days of booting a 4K Apple II (no, not a misprint; the basic machine had 4K memory!) from a 5.25 inch floppy disk, but that was fast in comparison….

 

I then bought an ‘ultra grade’ card (Kingspan), claimed to have a read speed of 90MHz. This improved matters enough to be workable, but still takes about 5 min to boot and set the desktop.

 

I then ran A-B-A comparisons between two Minis, a 2012 and a 2010. Both machines (4GB) have had the Apple SMPSs and Wi-Fi/Bluetooth boards removed, and were powered in parallel from a Paul Hynes SR5 linear supply; they each have 60G SSDs. The fans were powered externally by a Teradak U9VA variable supply set to about 3.5v. So far as I can tell these two Minis have virtually identical sounds when playing from the SSDs; slight differences are probably due to different pathways into the DAC. Both were using Playlist mode in Audirvana+ 1.5.12 (no upscaling). On the 2012 the track was playing from RAM disk, and from the SSD on the 2010.

 

I played a variety of tracks (listed below), and they all showed some improvement in switching from SSD to RAMdisk, but not the spectacular change I was expecting. The change was most noticeable with the Beethoven quartet (highly recommended as a recording, as well as a performance, when it appeared) and with the Bach Brandenburg (also highly recommended); there was more space around the players, more feeling of ‘being there’. The improvement was there on the others but less distinct. The main difference for the Art of Fugue was in the greater awareness of the recording hall rather than any change in piano sound, though the different piano tunings (shown in the film “The Piano Tuner”) were more evident.

 

Thus on my system with my (elderly) pair of ears, I get very different results from what Superdad and others have reported. The improvements are in the same direction, but much less obvious. Another difference is in the importance of unmounting the hard drive of the Mini. I found I could unmount and remount the SSD while a track was playing without any audible change.

 

It might be that my hearing is not sensitive enough, but I can suggest another possible reason for our differences. Two years ago I had a similar experience to Superdad’s, though without the laundry list problems. This was when I first installed a small linear supply on a 2009 Mini, and suddenly from trying, unsuccessfully, to get the computer to match a moderate CD player (Linn Ikemi), the situation was reversed. Since then a bigger linear supply, and external powering of the fans, have both given very useful improvements in SQ. It seems to me that that my Minis may now be getting fairly close to being optimised (unless I pull them apart as tranz has done, but that gives a system which is not exactly house-trained, and I’m not risking the domestic upset….). So far as I know, the reports of major improvements with RAM disk have been on machines with the original HDD and SMPS in place. It would be very useful to have reports from others who have linear supplies, SSD and external fans or passive cooling, (any offers, tranz or Alfe?) to see if they can get major improvements with RAM disk, and to check on my hearing. After all this, I think there will be some point to external powering of the SSD, but I’m not in a hurry to try it.

 

Tracks:

Beethoven Razumovsky Q No. I, Takács (Decca)

Bach Brandenburg Conc. No.2, AAM, Egarr ( Harmonia Mundi)

Bach Art of Fugue 1-3, Aimard (DG)

Ockeghem, Missa Fors Seulement, Clerk's Group, Wickham (ASV)

Mozart Gran Partita 1-3, COE, Schneider (ASV)

[tranz]

Hi BobL,

 

It has been a while since I tried, but I recall not getting an improvement in my setup. Amarra loads songs into cache before playback, so that might be why I did not hear a difference. And all my drives are externally powered anyway.

 

It would make sense to me if an HD is still powered through the mobo, and then use a RAMDisk with HD dismount, to hear an improvement since there is less electrical pull.

 

Cheers

[Superdad]

I probably started this project with too much optimism, so there have been some disappointments, even though I do agree that RAM disk gives the best sound. I hadn't read wwaldmanfan's comments, and I started with cheap grade 6 SDHC cards. At first I thought the Mini had gone dead on me, but it was just that everything was impossibly slow. I remember the days of booting a 4K Apple II (no, not a misprint; the basic machine had 4K memory!) from a 5.25 inch floppy disk, but that was fast in comparison….

 

I then bought an ‘ultra grade’ card (Kingspan), claimed to have a read speed of 90MHz. This improved matters enough to be workable, but still takes about 5 min to boot and set the desktop.

 

 

Hi Bob:

 

Thanks for your detailed report. My experience has been different from yours and others with regards to the SD card. I use a headless 2.4GHz 8GB 2010 as my music player, and with just a slow and lowly $18 Transcend 32GB SDHC card (Amazon.com: Transcend 32 GB Class 10 SDHC Flash Memory Card (TS32GSDHC10E): Electronics), loaded with a slimmed Mavericks (10.9 with no updates), my boot time is always exactly 45 seconds, and usage is quite snappy.

 

The only thing I can think of for those who find the SD card slow, is to do the cleanest install possible on a boot hard drive (I use my internal for that), do most all the slimming and optimizing on that HD, and then clone that your SD card. That is how I did it and I have never experienced slow SD card booting or functioning.

 

I too "eject" my internal drive (a stock Apple HD; actually I have to eject its two partitions--one is my boot clone for b/u, and the other I use for experiments with other players, DRC, etc.). I can't say I pay close attention to the SQ difference of doing so, but I like it spun down and not drawing anything. I tried removing the HD entirely once, but I was dumb and took with it the taped on thermal sensors. The Mac does not like having those unplugged. I was lazy and just put the whole drive back.

 

As for the RAM disk SQ: First of all, if I use RAM disk it is only for music tracks. Unlike some others, I prefer the SQ with the Audirvana+ app (1.5.10 my fav!) run from the SD card. And my SMPS is removed as I run the unit from one of our prototype JS-2 linear supplies (I have not been posting much lately because I am neck deep in getting production going--parts flying in from everywhere!). RAM disk still rules for me--and by a pretty obvious margin when comparing with excellent source material.

 

The hassle aspect of RAM disk does not thrill me since I prefer having my entire library available to jump around in, and I only set up a 1GB RAM disk (if I had 16GB total I'd make it bigger). It is bad enough dragging albums over to an A+ playlist to play (and then quitting iTunes); I'm looking forward to using A+ 2.0 for all sorting/browsing/playback chores!

 

I appreciated your suggestion about possibly including a jack for external powering of internal HD/SSD as part of our Mac mini DC conversion/fan controller board. But after looking at it closely, it would be a bit of a nightmare. Not only don't we have room for another rear jack (the DC barrel and SMA for the sense line already take up the entire empty spot left after removal of the SMPS), but the modification of Apple's stock SATA cable/PCB is much more than we are comfortable suggesting people tackle.

Besides, based on your and Tranz's results with external fixed voltage mods, I think that getting rid of all the high-current PCM pulses between the fan and the motherboard, and running linear variable DC to the fan (with the Mac still able to read the tachometer and adjust speed as needed) will be the biggest payoff-- aside from pulling the SMPS--that most people can do hardware wise to the mini.

I'm just dreading having to shell out several hundred dollars for the specialized tool required to crimp the fantastically small (2.4mm x 1mm) pins used with the fan (and all those sensors) connector. The idea is to include a cable that goes from our adapter board back to where the fan usually plugs into the motherboard (still working out how to get the fan's stock cable/connector over to our board--it's too short as you reported to me).

 

I also have couple of sheets of the 3M AB5100S EMI absorption material (  EMI Absorbers: Electronic Solutions : 3M United States) that I intend to cut up and at least put on the RAM modules. Swenson tells me that RAM modules are one of the noisiest parts of a computer due to the combination of the traces between the chips being comparatively long and the high speed switching. If this stuff makes a difference as other have reported, that's one place it really should be heard.

 

Best,

Alex C.

[eltee00]

@ Jud--

Thanks for your response. I thought the SQ with the OSX on the SDXC card and the music files on RAMdisk sounded quite spectacular. However, the glacially slow operations of the computer made it frustrating and impractical.

 

It sounds almost as good from the SSD. If someone can give me a solution to the slow card problem, I would go back to that, but, otherwise, I am more than happy with this arrangement.

 

I don't know what "New Year's" surprises Damien Plisson has in store for us, but I am looking forward to finding out!

 

I've discovered that you will need to leave around 5gb of freespace within your SD card for the OS to run at an acceptable speed. I'm using a 16gb card right now and it runs at a reasonable speed. Slow but not extremely frustrating.

 

If you are using 16gb, do note that after you perform a clean install on the SD, it leaves the OSX installation file on your drive. The file is about 5gb so clearing that will give the OS enough wiggle room to perform.

 

Hope that helps.

[eltee00]

Hey Alex,

 

I've written an applescript that will automatically take whatever song is selected from iTunes and then copying that file to the RAM disk and playing off of it. It works considerably well but does have some hiccup once in awhile, mostly because OSX running from SD card does occasionally get into a slow down and it messes up the entire chain of events. Let me spend the weekend trying to polish it up and I will share it with you.

 

With that applescript I can use the ipad remote app and still enjoy the SQ of playing the file from RAM disk under playlist mode in A+. One minus is that after you pick a song, it takes about 10 seconds for the entire chain of event to complete so it's a bit of a pain but acceptable for me. I also have another script that will transfer the files of the entire album of whatever song you pick on iTunes, so A+ will load the entire album onto it's playlist. It's good for listening the entire album without having to deal with the 10 second loading gap in between tracks.

[tipunch]

Hello,

I am interested to install a linear supply on my Mac mini. But I read on a forum that people who already have a linear supply on their Mac mini hears no difference if they install the system and the CAD script on a SD card.

Therefore, I would like to know if people, who as me have their system and the CAD script on a SD card, hears a significant improvement with a linear supply?

Thus we could say that a SD card and the CAD script replaces the linear supply at the SQ level?

[elcorso]

Hello,

I am interested to install a linear supply on my Mac mini. But I read on a forum that people who already have a linear supply on their Mac mini hears no difference if they install the system and the CAD script on a SD card.

Therefore, I would like to know if people, who as me have their system and the CAD script on a SD card, hears a significant improvement with a linear supply?

Thus we could say that a SD card and the CAD script replaces the linear supply at the SQ level?

 

Absolutely not, I own a a Mojo LPSU and CAD & SD card. The first thing is the LPSU, then you benefit also from CAD & SD.

 

Then I replaced the SD card for an internal 1 TB SSD for music only, added to the existent SSD with the OS & apps. More improvement regarding SQ and more room for music.

 

Roch

[Jud]

Absolutely not, I own a a Mojo LPSU and CAD & SD card. The first thing is the LPSU, then you benefit also from CAD & SD.

 

Then I replaced the SD card for an internal 1 TB SSD for music only, added to the existent SSD with the OS & apps. More improvement regarding SQ and more room for music.

 

Roch

 

Roch, this is the first thing I've read that interests me in a Mac Mini as a source (rather than another MacBook Pro; either one would not be any time soon, but at some point in the future).

[Superdad]

Hello,

I am interested to install a linear supply on my Mac mini. But I read on a forum that people who already have a linear supply on their Mac mini hears no difference if they install the system and the CAD script on a SD card.

Therefore, I would like to know if people, who as me have their system and the CAD script on a SD card, hears a significant improvement with a linear supply?

Thus we could say that a SD card and the CAD script replaces the linear supply at the SQ level?

 

Roch is correct. A good linear PS only makes it much easier to hear all the other good tweaks. SD card, OS slimming, Ethernet drive sharing (to get fit of Firewire and SATA drive connections), RAM disk--all more readily heard when the SMPS is removed from the computer.

 

Getting rid of the high-current PWM pulses between the Mac mini 4-wire fan and the motherboard is also very worthwhile. It is a hassle to do that with a second dedicated external PS (wire splicing, loosing ability for the OS to control fan speed based on temperature, etc.), but I am working with John Swenson to design a linear fan controller onto our DC conversion board and to have it be entirely plug'n'play with no wire cutting.

[Superdad]

Hey Alex,

 

I've written an applescript that will automatically take whatever song is selected from iTunes and then copying that file to the RAM disk and playing off of it. It works considerably well but does have some hiccup once in awhile, mostly because OSX running from SD card does occasionally get into a slow down and it messes up the entire chain of events. Let me spend the weekend trying to polish it up and I will share it with you.

 

With that applescript I can use the ipad remote app and still enjoy the SQ of playing the file from RAM disk under playlist mode in A+. One minus is that after you pick a song, it takes about 10 seconds for the entire chain of event to complete so it's a bit of a pain but acceptable for me. I also have another script that will transfer the files of the entire album of whatever song you pick on iTunes, so A+ will load the entire album onto it's playlist. It's good for listening the entire album without having to deal with the 10 second loading gap in between tracks.

 

Eltee00: That sounds great! I have played a little bit with a RAM disk script that Bill Scott posted, but it does not do what you are proposing. Also, Jud has been giving detailed suggestions regarding RAM disk to Damien during A+ 2.0 alpha process. I do not know if Damien intends to incorporate that into the product or not.

 

So I would love to give your script a try when it is ready. As I mentioned elsewhere, I am pretty happy with music drive storage/access via my dedicated Ethernet line set-up (no router/switch, BlueJeans Cat6a, MTU 9000). It equals SQ of music files on SD card (so my SD is just OS boot and A+, etc.), but falls short of RAM disk by the same amount. So I only go to the RAM disk for ultimate playback of great tracks. But if a script could the job automatically for me…

I might have to upgrade my machine to 16GB.

 

Thanks,

 

ALEX

[Superdad]

Roch, this is the first thing I've read that interests me in a Mac Mini as a source (rather than another MacBook Pro; either one would not be any time soon, but at some point in the future).

 

Hey Jud:

I would encourage you to give a mini a try. A few months ago my wife brought her MacBook Pro home from work and I booted it up with the same SD card I use for my music mini (then "ejected" the internal drive, etc.). Played the few reference tracks I keep on the SD, both via battery power and with the AC adapter.

Compared to my mini (which at the time I think still had the SMPS in it), bass impact and detail was very disappointing. I was really surprised. Even tried putting it on BDR cones on the same shelf as my mini (that helped, but not much).

So maybe save up. While a mini itself would be cheaper than another MBP, there is the cost of a good PS to add…

 

Ciao,

AJC

[tipunch]

Absolutely not, I own a a Mojo LPSU and CAD & SD card. The first thing is the LPSU, then you benefit also from CAD & SD.

 

Then I replaced the SD card for an internal 1 TB SSD for music only, added to the existent SSD with the OS & apps. More improvement regarding SQ and more room for music.

 

Roch

 

Thank you Roch and Alex for your answer, I will invest in a Mojo LPSU.

[eltee00]

As I mentioned elsewhere, I am pretty happy with music drive storage/access via my dedicated Ethernet line set-up (no router/switch, BlueJeans Cat6a, MTU 9000).

AJC

 

Hi Alex,

 

Where have you posted regarding the ethernet setup? I'm very interested in learning about that approach. Thanks!

[Superdad]

Hi Alex,

 

Where have you posted regarding the ethernet setup? I'm very interested in learning about that approach. Thanks!

 

Here you go: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/uh-oh-i-beat-my-sd-card-trick%3B-bypass-your-ethernet-switch-and-make-your-external-drives-sound-close-ram-disk-using-apple-thunderbolt-ethernet-adaptor-and-second-network-connection-18475/#post277280

[mfaoro]

What SD card are you using?