Miska Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Since the modulator is the heart of the DAC, I assume you mean that HQP is modeling the modulator's behavior and adjusting for it. When you upsample to DSD, there's a software modulator in HQPlayer. In optimal case this means that DACs own oversampling filters and modulator are bypassed and the DAC actually does only digital-to-analog conversion without performing any DSP operations. Sabre will always perform some amount of DSP, but with DSD input large block of processing is bypassed compared to PCM. Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
Stereolab42 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 When you upsample to DSD, there's a software modulator in HQPlayer. In optimal case this means that DACs own oversampling filters and modulator are bypassed and the DAC actually does only digital-to-analog conversion without performing any DSP operations. Sabre will always perform some amount of DSP, but with DSD input large block of processing is bypassed compared to PCM. What DSP is Sabre doing on DSD input precisely? I know it must convert to multibit, but does that count? Link to comment
Miska Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 What DSP is Sabre doing on DSD input precisely? I know it must convert to multibit, but does that count? Remodulation for volume control... I just count any digital manipulation as DSP. Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
Stereolab42 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Remodulation for volume control... I just count any digital manipulation as DSP. But if you have attenuation set to 0.0dB on the exaSounds, from what George says the unit is not telling the Sabre to do any volume manipulation. So in that case would you say the Sabre is playing DSD "bit-perfectly"? Link to comment
Bunpei Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 But if you have attenuation set to 0.0dB on the exaSounds, from what George says the unit is not telling the Sabre to do any volume manipulation. So in that case would you say the Sabre is playing DSD "bit-perfectly"? Regardless of any setting of volume control, Sabre32 does not play DSD when you set "FIR ( a part of DSP function) disabled". The chip apparently converts 1 bit delta-sigma modulated signal to 65 level delta-sigma modulated signal of MCLK/64 sampling frequency. I'm afraid whether this conversion fits to your definition on "bit-perfect" or not. Link to comment
Miska Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 The chip apparently converts 1 bit delta-sigma modulated signal to 65 level delta-sigma modulated signal of MCLK/64 sampling frequency. I'm afraid whether this conversion fits to your definition on "bit-perfect" or not. That doesn't quite match with my measurements... Look at the required MCLK ratio for OSF, OSF-bypass and DSD modes. In Sabre DSD goes through 3rd order IIR, with those selectable normalized corner frequencies. However, I have to refine my theory on what happens then, because the information doesn't add up with what I thought would happen... I think I know, but have to do some simulation first to confirm. That 64x ratio is mentioned there, because that is used later in the document to express the normalized IIR corner points. Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
Hiro Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 The chip apparently converts 1 bit delta-sigma modulated signal to 65 level delta-sigma modulated signal of MCLK/64 sampling frequency. Do you know whether the ESS chip can be configured to accept a direct 6-bit delta sigma digital stream? Link to comment
Bunpei Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Do you know whether the ESS chip can be configured to accept a direct 6-bit delta sigma digital stream? There are no input pins to accept 6-bit parallel input signal lines. Link to comment
Hiro Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 There are no input pins to accept 6-bit parallel input signal lines. Thanks for the info. It looks like Miska's DSC1 is the only DSD DAC that can be configured to accept such signal at the moment. Link to comment
Stereolab42 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 So one downside of an exaSound is that the ASIO drivers don't expose a traditional audio device in Windows Sound, which means you can't redirect other computer sound through the DAC even if you want to (such as YouTube, etc.) After some Googling I discovered a free product called "ASIO Bridge" which exposes a virtual sound driver that can redirect audio to any ASIO device: VB-Audio Virtual Apps It works like a charm. All you need to do to switch between hires audio from, say, JRiver, and YouTube/Pandora/etc. is to stop JRiver playback, and click a button in the ASIO Bridge control panel. (I would humbly suggest that exaSound add the capability to expose a traditional sound device to make the playing of non-hires audio sources easier. You can always run a TOSLINK cable from your existing sound card to the exaSound's digital input, but that requires a physical cable, of course, plus you need to change the exaSound's input selection.) Link to comment
Kal Rubinson Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 So one downside of an exaSound is that the ASIO drivers don't expose a traditional audio device in Windows Sound, which means you can't redirect other computer sound through the DAC even if you want to (such as YouTube, etc.) After some Googling I discovered a free product called "ASIO Bridge" which exposes a virtual sound driver that can redirect audio to any ASIO device:Interesting. I was thinking about getting that at the suggestion of George Klissarov but, turns out, I don't need it. I use Dirac which does expose itself and works as you describe for ASIO Bridge. It also does EQ. BTW, how does ASIO Bridge do with DSD? (I would humbly suggest that exaSound add the capability to expose a traditional sound device to make the playing of non-hires audio sources easier. You can always run a TOSLINK cable from your existing sound card to the exaSound's digital input, but that requires a physical cable, of course, plus you need to change the exaSound's input selection.)Changing the input is trivial. Kal Rubinson Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile Link to comment
Stereolab42 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Interesting. I was thinking about getting that at the suggestion of George Klissarov but, turns out, I don't need it. I use Dirac which does expose itself and works as you describe for ASIO Bridge. It also does EQ. BTW, how does ASIO Bridge do with DSD? It doesn't. Well, I suppose it could do DSD over DoP (for non-exaSound DACs that support DoP), but there is really no point, since any playback software capable of DSD playback supports ASIO. I would also imagine that if someday more mass-market apps like Pandora or Spotify add DSD streaming support, they would also simultaneously add ASIO support. Changing the input is trivial. Given the exaSound's Apple IR remote support, it is very easy. But it's even easier to just do everything from the PC with a mouse and not need to have a remote lying around. Another feature request: exaSound should add input selection as an option to their existing Windows control panel, which already lets you control volume. Link to comment
bmoura Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 The exaSound blog mentions that the e28 has received Stereophile Recommended Component status in their Fall 2014 listings: e28 DAC: A+ category, Digital Processors e28 DAC: A category, Surround-Sound Components See the blog post at http://www.exasound.com/Blog/tabid/74/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/160/e28-DAC-Stereophile-Recommended-A-Digital-Processor.aspx Congrats to the exaSound team! Link to comment
ted_b Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Well deserved, George and team!! "We're all bozos on this bus"....F.T. My JRIver tutorial videos Actual JRIver tutorial MP4 video links My eleven yr old SACD Ripping Guide for PS3 (needs updating but still works) US Technical Advisor, NativeDSD.com Link to comment
jtwrace Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Can someone explain the nomenclature to me? Which is the superior 2 ch dac in the lineup that does DSD? W10 NUC i7 (Gen 10) > Roon (Audiolense FIR) > Motu UltraLite mk5 > (4) Hypex NCore NC502MP > JBL M2 Master Reference +4 subs Watch my Podcast https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXMw_bZWBMtRWNJQfTJ38kA/videos Link to comment
ted_b Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Jason, Currently the exaSound DACs all do DSD up to DSD256, and are: e20 (2 channel; RCA and XLR) e22 (upgraded version of e20, with full size USB in, and higher quality XLR and RCA outs) e28 (8 channel, rca or mini-XLR) exaSound Audio Design > Start Here > Compare Specifications George has a couple other things up his sleeve. To specifically answer your question, the e22. "We're all bozos on this bus"....F.T. My JRIver tutorial videos Actual JRIver tutorial MP4 video links My eleven yr old SACD Ripping Guide for PS3 (needs updating but still works) US Technical Advisor, NativeDSD.com Link to comment
jtwrace Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Jason,Currently the exaSound DACs all do DSD up to DSD256, and are: e20 (2 channel; RCA and XLR) e22 (upgraded version of e20, with full size USB in, and higher quality XLR and RCA outs) e28 (8 channel, rca or mini-XLR) That helps! Thanks. George has a couple other things up his sleeve. Such as? To specifically answer your question, the e22. Thanks again. W10 NUC i7 (Gen 10) > Roon (Audiolense FIR) > Motu UltraLite mk5 > (4) Hypex NCore NC502MP > JBL M2 Master Reference +4 subs Watch my Podcast https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXMw_bZWBMtRWNJQfTJ38kA/videos Link to comment
bmoura Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 George has a couple other things up his sleeve. George and the exaSound team have long sleeves! As more DSD256 music downloads appear on line over at Native DSD - such as the 20 Yarlung Artists albums (Stereo DSD256) Ted mentioned recently and the new Iso Mike recordings (Stereo & Multichannel DSD 256) - having DSD256 playback in Stereo and Multichannel in a DAC will become much more important. Not surprisingly, as other DAC makers are still offering single rate DSD (DSD64) and double rate DSD (DSD128), exaSound has already covered all of those bases with their e28 DAC. Way to go exaSound. Link to comment
johndoe21ro Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 It sure does feel better to know that we're covered, at least for a while... although I doubt DSD512 is practical, judging by the huge sizes of such DSD files. HDD's are cheaper than ever but I still like to use a SSD for critical applications such as computer audiophile software and music files. Triangle Magellan Concerto 2 < AQ Everest < Vitus Audio SS-010 Mk2 < AQ Dragon High Current < AQ WEL XLR < Chord Qutest DAC w UpTone JS-2 & AQ Dragon Source < AQ Diamond USB < Innuos Phoenix USB w AQ Dragon Source < Aurender N100H & AQ Dragon Source < NetGear GS105GE Switch w UpTone LPS1.2 < Supra CAT8 Ethernet < Gryphon PowerZone w AQ NRG-Wild < Stillpoints UltraSS, Ansuz Darkz D-TC & D2, Omicron Harmonic Stabilizer, Gold Evolution SE & Classic < Furutech FT-SWS (R) < Synergistic Research Orange Quantum Fuse < Solid Tech Hybrid < GigaWatt G-16A 2P Circuit Breaker Link to comment
bmoura Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 It sure does feel better to know that we're covered, at least for a while... although I doubt DSD512 is practical, judging by the huge sizes of such DSD files. HDD's are cheaper than ever but I still like to use a SSD for critical applications such as computer audiophile software and music files. For now, DSD512 is limited to the world of upsampling DSD and PCM music files to that level of resolution. Next up would be using DSD512 as a production tool - although Pyramix and the others are limited to DSD256 and lower today. We will see what's ahead... Link to comment
ted_b Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Yes, one of the limitations of DSD256 and higher is the fact that any sweetening or EQ needed in Pyramix is still done at DXD 352.8k, which for DSD64 isn't bad (8x fold down) but for higher DSD versions becomes quite a penalty. DXD 705.6k and above is the next step in Pyramix EQ needs, so that these DSD formats can be edited with somewhat equivalent tools. Simple time slicing (or pre-mastering in analog) is not an issue, of course. "We're all bozos on this bus"....F.T. My JRIver tutorial videos Actual JRIver tutorial MP4 video links My eleven yr old SACD Ripping Guide for PS3 (needs updating but still works) US Technical Advisor, NativeDSD.com Link to comment
Hiro Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Sabre will always perform some amount of DSP, but with DSD input large block of processing is bypassed compared to PCM. And the DSP is reportedly done at DSD sampling rates, without PCM decimation and downsampling to low rate PCM. Link to comment
bmoura Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Lynn Olson of Positive Feedback Online says his Favorite Room at the recent Rocky Mountain Audio Festival was exaSound - playing selections from the Native DSD web store on their e20 and e28 DACs with a Bryston 9SST Multichannel Amp and 5 Magnepan 1.7 Loudspeakers. Congratulations to George at exaSound for putting together the system that won the kudos! Lynn Olson RMAF 2014 Link to comment
Fitzcaraldo215 Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 So one downside of an exaSound is that the ASIO drivers don't expose a traditional audio device in Windows Sound, which means you can't redirect other computer sound through the DAC even if you want to (such as YouTube, etc.) After some Googling I discovered a free product called "ASIO Bridge" which exposes a virtual sound driver that can redirect audio to any ASIO device: VB-Audio Virtual Apps It works like a charm. All you need to do to switch between hires audio from, say, JRiver, and YouTube/Pandora/etc. is to stop JRiver playback, and click a button in the ASIO Bridge control panel. (I would humbly suggest that exaSound add the capability to expose a traditional sound device to make the playing of non-hires audio sources easier. You can always run a TOSLINK cable from your existing sound card to the exaSound's digital input, but that requires a physical cable, of course, plus you need to change the exaSound's input selection.) That is also now a feature of JRiver 20. NEW: WDM Driver (use MC for browser audio now) So, all Windows sound can now be directed to JR, as a default virtual sound card, which should be able to then output to your ExaSound or, like me, to Dirac Live then my e28. I have not tried it and I am not sure if I need it, but I might in future. In my case, that means that bass management which I apply in JR DSP Studio will also be properly applied to any non-JR sources. And, boy oh boy, am I loving my sound via the e28 and Dirac Live. George has quoted me, with my permission, of course: exaSound Audio Design > Blog > Testimonials Link to comment
bmoura Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 That is also now a feature of JRiver 20. NEW: WDM Driver (use MC for browser audio now) So, all Windows sound can now be directed to JR, as a default virtual sound card, which should be able to then output to your ExaSound or, like me, to Dirac Live then my e28. I have not tried it and I am not sure if I need it, but I might in future. In my case, that means that bass management which I apply in JR DSP Studio will also be properly applied to any non-JR sources. And, boy oh boy, am I loving my sound via the e28 and Dirac Live. George has quoted me, with my permission, of course: exaSound Audio Design > Blog > Testimonials The great thing about the e28 is it plays every DSD and PCM download out there - Stereo or Multichannel, Single - Double and Quad Rate DSD, etc. So whether you are on Native DSD, DSD File, Blue Coast, HD Tracks, etc. etc. the e28 plays them all. It's the swiss army knife of DACs! Link to comment
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