exaSound e18 - e20 - e28 - Info and Experiences Post All Here

[bmoura]

IMHO I am suggesting both. There are not too many DACs that can playback DSD256, ifi micro DSD and the Exasound's , so HQ Players up converting to DSD256 capability can only be taken advantage of by these two DACs?

 

True. I'd like to see Signalyst post guides on how to configure and best use their HQ Player software with DACs from vendors like iFi and exaSound on their web site. Could be similar to the "guides" section on the exaSound web site. Would be very helpful.

[bmoura]

ASIO on Mac is in the works. We're working with George at exaSound.

 

Excellent !

[ted_b]

There is a great news for the users of the exaSound volume synchronization plug-in for JRiver Media Center for Windows. The plug-in allows JRiver and JRemote to operate the hardware volume control of exaSound DACs.

 

Until now the plug-in couldn't control the volume during DSD playback. The latest JRiver MC beta build 20.0.12 offers a new setting - "Enable Volume When Bitstreaming". Finally we can use JRemote as a unified remote control center for all music sources - PCM and DSD.

 

You can find the new setting by clicking on the Volume Options icon on the left side of the JRiver volume control slider.

 

The latest release of the exaSound Volume Synchronization Plug-in for JRiver MC for Windows is available for download on the exaSound support website.

 

I finally got around to installing this wonderfully great plug in on my home office machine, brought the e28 in and set it up for 2 channel headphone listening. I am previewing 20+ new DSD256 albums we (NativeDSD.com) are about to slice up, tag and deliver to the site for purchase. They are from Grammy-winning Yarlung Records, and are direct analog tape to DSD256 transfers (world music, jazz, classical, percussion, solo cello, solo violin, etc). The plug in allows me to have my cake and eat it too (use JRiver volume when bitstreaming, etc). The results are nothing short of great! Nice job George-and-company, combined with Matt-and company. Oh! And the DSD256 transfers from Bob Attiyeh are quite like listening to the some of the best analog tapes you've likely heard. Smooth, dynamic, smooth, musical, resolving but not analytical, oh and did I say smooth? Analog except for the fact they are...um...on your computer.

[astrotoy]

Bob does a very nice job with his tapes, I think all recorded by him at local LA venues. If you want something really analog from Bob, twelve of his albums are on 15IPS 2 Track, CCIR EQ. He has about the most reasonable pricing for R2R tapes of about anyone. The disadvantage is that there is only about 30 or so minutes of music on each tape, (since he is using 2400' 10.5 reels) and so he has to make selections from each album. When they are ready at Native, I'm buy one of the albums to compare. My undertanding is that Arian Jansen and others have contributed to the non-profit which Bob has to support the recordings, making it possible for the tapes to be released at the prices he charges.

 

Larry

[bmoura]

I finally got around to installing this wonderfully great plug in on my home office machine, brought the e28 in and set it up for 2 channel headphone listening. I am previewing 20+ new DSD256 albums we (NativeDSD.com) are about to slice up, tag and deliver to the site for purchase. They are from Grammy-winning Yarlung Records, and are direct analog tape to DSD256 transfers (world music, jazz, classical, percussion, solo cello, solo violin, etc). The plug in allows me to have my cake and eat it too (use JRiver volume when bitstreaming, etc). The results are nothing short of great! Nice job George-and-company, combined with Matt-and company. Oh! And the DSD256 transfers from Bob Attiyeh are quite like listening to the some of the best analog tapes you've likely heard. Smooth, dynamic, smooth, musical, resolving but not analytical, oh and did I say smooth? Analog except for the fact they are...um...on your computer.

 

The QuadDSD (DSD 256) mode on the exaSound e28 comes in quite handy for DSD downloads like these.

 

Looking forward to hearing some of the Yarlung DSD downloads - especially that Jazz release. The music samples on the Yarlung web site sound might tasty!

 

http://www.criticaljazz.com/2014/08/sophisticated-lady-jazz-quartet-yarlung.html

[LewinskiH01]

Stuttering is a common symptom of buffer underrun issues. It can happen with video as well with audio. Increasing the J.River buffer to 500ms is recommended for most cases when playing back DSD files. This issue does happen with other DSD DAC's as well. I do not think of it as a band-aid just a limitation somewhere in the system. I think it is a combination of application and hardware that is causing this underrun somewhere in the pipeline from the DSD file by the time it reaches the DAC by the way of USB transfers. For some reason playing back DSD files is more resource intensive than some users realized. I just updated my PC to a Intel I7 system with higher speed memory because even converting PCM to DSD256 can overtax some slower system setups. I wanted to make sure I have enough headroom for smooth playback and avoid problems with processes that will cause short spikes in peak loads on the system as a whole. PC's like to use packet interrupt delivery of data and just takes a bit of work to get it stream smoothly. I also setup J.River for one second silent sync on start of playback. If you using DoP for DSD playback, setting J.River to play silent on DoP stop can help in some cases. You just have to find the optimal setting for your setup. I pay attention to the number of process and start-up items on my PC as well.

 

Things are looking better. I played around with buffering and at 100ms it never stutters when upconverting 16/44 to 2xDSD. I think I might have heard a couple pops while upconverting 24/192 to 2xDSD, but nothing too anoying. Issue resolved. Thanks John!

 

With stutter resolved I was now able to focus on the music and compare the e22 being fed 2xDSD to the Audiophilleo+Metrum. I think the e22 sounds a little better. The glare I noted before is gone. The e22 seems to have higher treble extension. And more noticeable bottom end. The differences are not big, though. I notice them because I can do an A/B within 10 secs or so.

 

Still, for $1.5k / 75% price difference I expect more in terms of sound difference. The next two things I'm thinking I should try is HQPlayer and a linear power supply on the e22. Anyone thinks I should try something else? Am I right to assume upconverting with HQPlayer should have a more pronounced impact than using a LPS on the e22? I'm arriving at this from reading posts here.

 

I have a variable voltage LPS feeding the server. If I can find a wall wart to replace it there I could try it on the e22 today.

[EuroDriver]

Things are looking better. I played around with buffering and at 100ms it never stutters when upconverting 16/44 to 2xDSD. I think I might have heard a couple pops while upconverting 24/192 to 2xDSD, but nothing too anoying. Issue resolved. Thanks John!

 

With stutter resolved I was now able to focus on the music and compare the e22 being fed 2xDSD to the Audiophilleo+Metrum. I think the e22 sounds a little better. The glare I noted before is gone. The e22 seems to have higher treble extension. And more noticeable bottom end. The differences are not big, though. I notice them because I can do an A/B within 10 secs or so.

 

Still, for $1.5k / 75% price difference I expect more in terms of sound difference. The next two things I'm thinking I should try is HQPlayer and a linear power supply on the e22. Anyone thinks I should try something else? Am I right to assume upconverting with HQPlayer should have a more pronounced impact than using a LPS on the e22? I'm arriving at this from reading posts here.

 

I have a variable voltage LPS feeding the server. If I can find a wall wart to replace it there I could try it on the e22 today.

 

I wait to hear our observations on HQ Player doing 16/44 > DSD 256 and DSD64/128 > DSD 256

 

You may find HQ Player settings Polysinc filter + DSD7 is the cat's whisker :-)

[esimms86]

I finally got around to installing this wonderfully great plug in on my home office machine, brought the e28 in and set it up for 2 channel headphone listening. I am previewing 20+ new DSD256 albums we (NativeDSD.com) are about to slice up, tag and deliver to the site for purchase. They are from Grammy-winning Yarlung Records, and are direct analog tape to DSD256 transfers (world music, jazz, classical, percussion, solo cello, solo violin, etc). The plug in allows me to have my cake and eat it too (use JRiver volume when bitstreaming, etc). The results are nothing short of great! Nice job George-and-company, combined with Matt-and company. Oh! And the DSD256 transfers from Bob Attiyeh are quite like listening to the some of the best analog tapes you've likely heard. Smooth, dynamic, smooth, musical, resolving but not analytical, oh and did I say smooth? Analog except for the fact they are...um...on your computer.

Ted, have you had a chance to make listening comparisons of the Yarlung DSD 256 and the hi res PCM available on hdtracks?

 

Esau

[ted_b]

Ted, have you had a chance to make listening comparisons of the Yarlung DSD 256 and the hi res PCM available on hdtracks?

 

Esau

 

Nope. I'm not going to get the PCM ones. My point was more about the e28, volume synch and DSD256. I'm sure the Yarlung stuff sounds good in PCM too.

[LewinskiH01]

I wait to hear our observations on HQ Player doing 16/44 > DSD 256 and DSD64/128 > DSD 256

 

You may find HQ Player settings Polysinc filter + DSD7 is the cat's whisker :-)

 

Thanks for the tips on HQPlayer settings. It does indeed sound a lot better upconverting 16/44 to DSD than JRiver does. I have it set with poly-sinc/DSD7/2.82MHz. Sound is great. CPU load is 8% @ 2.37GHz with CPU 5 & 7 running at 20% while the rest is at almost 0%. So cruising.

 

I need to play around with the volume control on HQPlayer, the one on the e22, etc, and do more listening to yet arrive at a conclusion, but the improvement over JRiver doing DSD is clearly there. Too bad both HQPlayer and exaSound don't take advantage of improvements brought by like the Audiophile Optimizer.

 

Any more tips I should be aware of?

[EuroDriver]

Thanks for the tips on HQPlayer settings. It does indeed sound a lot better upconverting 16/44 to DSD than JRiver does. I have it set with poly-sinc/DSD7/2.82MHz. Sound is great. CPU load is 8% @ 2.37GHz with CPU 5 & 7 running at 20% while the rest is at almost 0%. So cruising.

 

I need to play around with the volume control on HQPlayer, the one on the e22, etc, and do more listening to yet arrive at a conclusion, but the improvement over JRiver doing DSD is clearly there. Too bad both HQPlayer and exaSound don't take advantage of improvements brought by like the Audiophile Optimizer.

 

Any more tips I should be aware of?

 

Try 11.28 MHz as the frequency limit for 16/44 conversion, and let us know what you hear

 

when converting 24/96 or 24/192 PCM, the limit needs to be set at 12.28 MHz

 

for me the $64 question is how does the sound of JRMC running on Server 2012 with Phil's AO compare to HQP running on Win 8 when both are doing 16/44 > DSD 11.28 MHzMHz

[LewinskiH01]

Try 11.28 MHz as the frequency limit for 16/44 conversion, and let us know what you hear

 

when converting 24/96 or 24/192 PCM, the limit needs to be set at 12.28 MHz

 

for me the $64 question is how does the sound of JRMC running on Server 2012 with Phil's AO compare to HQP running on Win 8 when both are doing 16/44 > DSD 11.28 MHzMHz

 

Thanks. I will try that and come back.

 

Yours is not a completely fair question. The exaSound doesn't benefit from AO or WS2012, and it retails for an extra $1.5k /75% over the other digital chain. So I don't find this a fair way to compare WS2012+AO+JRMC vs HQPlayer. I can try WS2012+AO+JRMC+AP+Metrum vs HQP+e22 in PCM, but I don't know this will provide any meaningful info.

 

There are other factors also at play, though. HQPlayer interface isn't exactly friendly. I run a headless server with an iPad with JRemote and it's just simple. With HQPlayer I'm using a laptop with Teamviewer which is not too bad, but then the actual HQP interface is rather awkward. And this is coming from someone with a preamp with no remote control and two volume pots (one for each channel)...

Too bad HQPlayer can't run on top of JRiver or another playback software, like JPlay or Audionirvana do. And also too bad exaSound doesn't work with JPlay.

 

I have a fair amount of soulsearching in front of me

[bmoura]

HQPlayer interface isn't exactly friendly. I run a headless server with an iPad with JRemote and it's just simple. With HQPlayer I'm using a laptop with Teamviewer which is not too bad, but then the actual HQP interface is rather awkward. And this is coming from someone with a preamp with no remote control and two volume pots (one for each channel)...

Too bad HQPlayer can't run on top of JRiver or another playback software, like JPlay or Audionirvana do. And also too bad exaSound doesn't work with JPlay.

 

Agreed. HQ Player sounds good and is powerful. But it's not as easy to use as JRiver. Maybe JRiver could license the HQ Player technology? Hmm....

 

A headless server with an iPad and JRemote. Sounds interesting. I'll have to check the JRiver web site on how that set up might work.

[ted_b]

Agreed. HQ Player sounds good and is powerful. But it's not as easy to use as JRiver. Maybe JRiver could license the HQ Player technology? Hmm....

 

A headless server with an iPad and JRemote. Sounds interesting. I'll have to check the JRiver web site on how that set up might work.

 

Brian, my JRiver videos give you step by step of using tweaked customized JRemote with headless server (in my case WS2012 w/AO).

[LewinskiH01]

Brian, my JRiver videos give you step by step of using tweaked customized JRemote with headless server (in my case WS2012 w/AO).

 

Yes, mine is also WS2012 w/AO. How are you tweaking/customizing JRemote?

BTW, are you using JPlay also in conjunction with JRiver?

[Miska]

There are other factors also at play, though. HQPlayer interface isn't exactly friendly. I run a headless server with an iPad with JRemote and it's just simple. With HQPlayer I'm using a laptop with Teamviewer which is not too bad, but then the actual HQP interface is rather awkward. And this is coming from someone with a preamp with no remote control and two volume pots (one for each channel)...

 

Did you also try the touch/fullscreen interface? It may not be immediately obvious, but HQPlayer includes two different GUIs.

 

Some people use HQPlayer together with iTunes or JRiver through drag-and-drop... (just as a player with library management done using other software)

[LewinskiH01]

Did you also try the touch/fullscreen interface? It may not be immediately obvious, but HQPlayer includes two different GUIs.

 

Some people use HQPlayer together with iTunes or JRiver through drag-and-drop... (just as a player with library management done using other software)

 

Hello Miska. No, I didn't try the touch interface. How do I enable that?

And how do peolpe do drag and drop with HQP and JRiver?

[Miska]

Hello Miska. No, I didn't try the touch interface. How do I enable that?

 

It's the right-most button in the toolbar, tooltip says "Full screen mode". It has three views and opens in the middle one, on the left side there's a cover flow (with search) to select album for playback and on the right side there's a playlist editor view. Logic should be largely familiar from tablets and such. You can make it really full screen by ticking the check box in Preferences (Settings).

 

The [X] button in top right corner takes you back to desktop mode. You can switch between the views as you like, the GUI states are synchronized. (search filters on each apply to both GUIs simultaneously)

 

And how do peolpe do drag and drop with HQP and JRiver?

 

No idea, I have never used JRiver... I've only tried iTunes and Finder on Mac and that has been working fine for me.

 

But generally you have some content and then drag'n'drop it on HQPlayer window. All recognized stuff gets added on the playlist.

[bmoura]

Brian, my JRiver videos give you step by step of using tweaked customized JRemote with headless server (in my case WS2012 w/AO).

 

Hmm, I'll have to check them out. Are they listed under your name on You Tube? Any plans to do a video or two on using HQ Player next?

[bmoura]

Interesting sign on the door to the exaSound room (Room 505) at RMAF this weekend: e22 and e28 - Multichannel vs. Stereo DSD.

 

Let the comparisons begin!

[LewinskiH01]

It's the right-most button in the toolbar, tooltip says "Full screen mode". It has three views and opens in the middle one, on the left side there's a cover flow (with search) to select album for playback and on the right side there's a playlist editor view. Logic should be largely familiar from tablets and such. You can make it really full screen by ticking the check box in Preferences (Settings).

 

The [X] button in top right corner takes you back to desktop mode. You can switch between the views as you like, the GUI states are synchronized. (search filters on each apply to both GUIs simultaneously)

 

Thank you. Will try this over the weekend.

[LewinskiH01]

Interesting sign on the door to the exaSound room (Room 505) at RMAF this weekend: e22 and e28 - Multichannel vs. Stereo DSD.

 

Let the comparisons begin!

 

Too bad I'm not coming. If anyone else is interested, I'd like to know how an e28 working in 2 channels compares with an e22. Sound-wise, of course. And if you could note type of server used, playback software, and format of the files being played it would be fantastic. Sorry to be so anal but seems all these factors have a significant impact.

[Sam Lord]

OK, my questions about DSD volume settings pertain to several products but certainly the Exasound DACs. I don't have one yet, but the question is about volume settings for DSD. I use HQPlayer, the SOtM SMS100 server, and my current DAC is an OPPO 105D that receives DSD128, usually resampled from 16/44 flac in HQPlayer and fed through the SOtM.

 

First, DSD is typically attenuated by 6dB relative to 16/44 PCM files in order to avoid clipping in many installations. But I don't need that protection. Two related questions:

 

1) Which provides maximum fidelity, 6dB attenuation *left in place* (the 0dB DSD gain option) in HQPlayer, or the "6dB Gain" for DSD setting? Sorry that's an HQPlayer question but I think it's relevant here.

 

2) How does Exasound treat these signals? Note that Benchmark digitally attenuates its signal around 3dB to eliminate intersample peaks in PCM; but with DSD playback is there any penalty playing at 0dB besides ruptured eardrums? In other words, does fidelity suffer for any reason when playback volume *from the DAC* is at 0dB? This assumes that the downstream analog device, i.e. the preamp or amp, will not clip at either output. Also this question depends on proper gain-staging to avoid clipping everywhere and maximize S/N ratio across the playback system. An interesting aritcle from Grimm says that DSD actually has a margin of about 1.5dB prior to clipping...and I suppose that the LP filtering would knock out any intersample peaks anyway. If an IS peak occurs at 3MHz, doesn't it get wiped out before leaving the DAC? I suppose so!

 

3) Another thing Benchmark and other studio gear builders do is have a choice of very transparent gain settings for the above gain staging. My Oppo has a maximum input voltage rated as 2Vrms, "balanced or unbalanced," but they don't specify whether the balanced line is measured the voltage across noninverting *or* inverting, or either to neutral. It should mean the former, but that requires added circuitry that seems silly. Perhaps someone could help me out here. Exasound rates its balanced outputs at 4Vrms, a sensible figure.

 

Thanks for any help!

[Miska]

1) Which provides maximum fidelity, 6dB attenuation *left in place* (the 0dB DSD gain option) in HQPlayer, or the "6dB Gain" for DSD setting? Sorry that's an HQPlayer question but I think it's relevant here.

 

In HQPlayer, the 6 dB gain applies only to DSD-to-PCM conversion. Safe way is to leave it off because there is quite a lot of content exceeding 0 dBFS DSD level... But in case you would try to exceed maximum output value space, the "Limited" counter would tell you and keep you safe.

 

If you play PCM-to-DSD with HQPlayer, that setting doesn't have effect and HQPlayer defaults to -3 dBFS to avoid inter-sample overs for material like clipped RedBook. If you enable DSD volume control, the recommended volume setting is -3 dBFS, which ensures you don't trigger limiter (watch out the "Limited" counter). There is no advantage on pushing the max level harder than that because it brings lot of peaks close to 0 dBFS.

 

Wolfson documents their chips use -2 dBFS internally (on some chips it is possible to enable/disable this). In many cases this is already safe setting (unless you play something like RHCP - Californication or similar new production).

 

2) How does Exasound treat these signals? Note that Benchmark digitally attenuates its signal around 3dB to eliminate intersample peaks in PCM; but with DSD playback is there any penalty playing at 0dB besides ruptured eardrums? In other words, does fidelity suffer for any reason when playback volume *from the DAC* is at 0dB?

 

This is something for exaSound to answer, but IIRC ESS doesn't tell exact details around this subject. Cirrus Logic is the only one I remember sparing some explanation around the subject on their data sheets...

 

If you run HQPlayer upsampling it should be perfectly safe to leave it at 0 dB, because HQPlayer has two watchdogs looking at maximum levels. One at the modulator input and another at the modulator output, both trying to ensure that the output is not exceeding specs...

 

and I suppose that the LP filtering would knock out any intersample peaks anyway. If an IS peak occurs at 3MHz, doesn't it get wiped out before leaving the DAC? I suppose so!

 

Well no, it doesn't really...

[Sam Lord]

In HQPlayer, the 6 dB gain applies only to DSD-to-PCM conversion. Safe way is to leave it off...

 

Thank you for all this, now it makes sense. I suggest you put this in the manual as a recommendation. Also I now have a better picture of how all the DAC makers are addressing the IS peak issue, good to see.

 

If you run HQPlayer upsampling it should be perfectly safe to leave it at 0 dB, because HQPlayer has two watchdogs looking at maximum levels. One at the modulator input and another at the modulator output, both trying to ensure that the output is not exceeding specs...

 

Since the modulator is the heart of the DAC, I assume you mean that HQP is modeling the modulator's behavior and adjusting for it.

 

Re: DSD IS peak protection:

 

Well no, it doesn't really...

 

OK thanks, I'll think about how it happens. Cheers