Wyred 4 Sound Dac2SE Upgrade Revisited & Findings -- The Best Decision Unequivocally!

[Franatic]

Wyred For Sound has contacted me about the Singxer SU-1 i2s issues. They will prepay to have my Singxer sent to them. They will evaluate the i2s issue and come up with the solution.  

I love doing business with W4S. Thanks Tony & E J.

 

[jojeong8338]

On current plans, the upgraded DAC2v2se will be shipped to KOREA soon. I have a plan to connect Singxer SU-1 to the upgraded DAC over I2S as well. If Tony and E J. find the proper solution and firmware upgrade is necessary, I hope to upgrade DAC with new one. Franatic, Many thanks for your careful testing and posting, lol~~~

 

 

[audio.bill]

On 3/17/2017 at 8:44 PM, audio.bill said:

Has any consideration been made for having these new DACs support MQA? Please let's not get into a debate about the merits of MQA here, as there are other threads already active on that topic. Just curious whether full MQA decoding has been considered as a possibility with these DACs. TIA!

Haven't seen any response to this yet, thought it might have been overlooked with the forum conversion going on. TIA

[Franatic]

9 hours ago, jojeong8338 said:

On current plans, the upgraded DAC2v2se will be shipped to KOREA soon. I have a plan to connect Singxer SU-1 to the upgraded DAC over I2S as well. If Tony and E J. find the proper solution and firmware upgrade is necessary, I hope to upgrade DAC with new one. Franatic, Many thanks for your careful testing and posting, lol~~~

 

 

You're welcome, jojeong. As superb as the Singxer i2s is, I am sure there will be others following suit. I also predict it will be a firmware solution to the PCM issue. I'm sure E J will figure it out.

[Wyred 4 Sound]

On 3/20/2017 at 4:42 PM, audio.bill said:

Haven't seen any response to this yet, thought it might have been overlooked with the forum conversion going on. TIA

Hi @audio.bill, 

 

We've discussed things both with MQA and internally about this, and our consensus then and now is that due to investment costs and uncertainty with how MQA will ultimately materialize, we're in wait-and-see mode. If things become more clear with respect to content availability, costs and consumer demand for what we see as a sustainable new format, we'll definitely consider it strongly.  

[ksalno]

My upgraded DAC2v2 is supposed to arrive today. I will let it burn-in for 24 hours (I'm going to a live concert tonight anyway) and will then test DSD with both the SU-1 and the Hydra-Z via i2s to see what the results are and report back.

 

As for MQA, I think "wait and see" is what most of the DAC providers are saying, and it makes total sense given the uncertainty, scarcity of content, and the shifting direction of MQA Ltd.

 

Karl

[Franatic]

1 hour ago, ksalno said:

My upgraded DAC2v2 is supposed to arrive today. I will let it burn-in for 24 hours (I'm going to a live concert tonight anyway) and will then test DSD with both the SU-1 and the Hydra-Z via i2s to see what the results are and report back.

Karl

Karl, I'm very interested in your comparison of the SU-1 and Hydra-Z and impressions of the i2s in general.

My SU-1 was modified with the Sound Affairs Plexir Elite BDC:

https://www.mysoundaffairs.com/collections/modifications/products/singxer-su-1-with-plixir-elite-bdc-modification

More expensive than the SU-1 itself, but well worth doing to get the kind of performance I was looking for.

My SU-1 is on the way to W4S, they'll have it Monday and hopefully solve the PCM issues. You should have no issue playing DSD. I guess you can try PCM in your setup. Be prepared to power cycle the SU-1 after you try to restore the DSD playback.

BTW, the modification is a 5 volt supply........that's all you need, upgrade the 5 volts to the SU-1 PC Board.

[ksalno]

Thanks for the tip Franatic. I also have the Plexir PS for my SU-1. I also have the outboard PS for the Hydra-Z, so it will be an apples to apples comparison. I will try PCM and report back.

[Franatic]

1 hour ago, ksalno said:

Thanks for the tip Franatic. I also have the Plexir PS for my SU-1. I also have the outboard PS for the Hydra-Z, so it will be an apples to apples comparison. I will try PCM and report back.

Plixir Elite or Plixir Elementa? I have Elite.

What i2s(HDMI) cable do you have? I'm using a 0.3m Wireworld Starlight 7

[ksalno]

I also have the Plixir Elite and the Platinum Starlight 7 HDMI shorty cable. I also have a variety of AQ and other quality HDMI cables to play with but all of them are at least 1M.

[JohnDonaldson]

On 3/18/2017 at 3:33 AM, spockfish said:

 

Yeah the last one is the same issue I have with my DAC2v2. It requires first a firmware update, and secondly a change to the Linux kernel. The last part is the easy one: this is done in the community, and in general the guys from Sonore pull these patches in.

 

The biggest problem here is the firmware update. I've asked W4S multiple times when, but I did not get a definitive answer or even confirmation that this will be taken care off.

 

 

I too have been contacting W4S about supporting native DSD with a microRedu since last May.  Periodically EJ updates me on his efforts but the bottom line is he is not making much progress.  I think we DAC2 users who want this need to keep reminding W4S that native DSD support with the microRendu is important to us. 

[Franatic]

1 hour ago, ksalno said:

I also have the Plixir Elite and the Platinum Starlight 7 HDMI shorty cable. I also have a variety of AQ and other quality HDMI cables to play with but all of them are at least 1M.

You have a primo setup. You went all out and got the Platinum Starlight! It should sound fantastic.

[rah50]

9 hours ago, JohnDonaldson said:

 

 

I too have been contacting W4S about supporting native DSD with a microRedu since last May.  Periodically EJ updates me on his efforts but the bottom line is he is not making much progress.  I think we DAC2 users who want this need to keep reminding W4S that native DSD support with the microRendu is important to us. 

 

My upgraded DAC2 goes back tomorrow because the upgrade couldn't successfully run DSD256 on Win10 either. So I sent an email to Tony today asking if they would like me to send along my microRendu so they could work on the firmware update. I also said they could use my dac to send to Jesus at Sonore so he could use it to fix the kernel. No word back yet

[ksalno]

Just received my upgraded DAC2v2SE tonight. I still have it burning in but I can comment on a couple things mentioned on this forum. I'm using JRMC 22 running on an AO optimized Win10 SOtM sMS-1000SQ with USB out. I tried these combos:

 

1. USB direct to DAC2 - works fine in all modes using the W4S ASIO driver
2. USB to Hydra-Z with i2s to DAC2 - can't get the AudioByte driver to work at all, so unable to test this combo
3. USB to Singxer SU-1 with i2s to DAC2 - as reported, DSD works fine up to and including 256 (4X), PCM results in noise
4. Roon Server running on Sonic Transporter over wired network to SOtM sMS-200 connected to the Singxer SU-1 streams all DSD up to 256 with no problem

I haven't had a chance to try Roon via microRendu yet. Will give that a shot tomorrow night. 

[spockfish]

4 hours ago, rah50 said:

 

My upgraded DAC2 goes back tomorrow because the upgrade couldn't successfully run DSD256 on Win10 either. So I sent an email to Tony today asking if they would like me to send along my microRendu so they could work on the firmware update. I also said they could use my dac to send to Jesus at Sonore so he could use it to fix the kernel. No word back yet

 

We're talking specifically about native DSD via a Linux endpoint (as the microRendu). I'm still amazed (and frustrated) that W4S is not providing this, as any other DAC supplier does. And furthermore, the supplier of the OEM USB module probably already does. So it's a matter of priority I guess...

 

And it's not about fixing the kernel. Again, fixing the kernel is something I did myself. It's about the DAC supporting altsettings that are being available. Then the kernel can be (easily) patched to support a specific DAC.

[rah50]

7 hours ago, spockfish said:

 

We're talking specifically about native DSD via a Linux endpoint (as the microRendu). I'm still amazed (and frustrated) that W4S is not providing this, as any other DAC supplier does. And furthermore, the supplier of the OEM USB module probably already does. So it's a matter of priority I guess...

 

And it's not about fixing the kernel. Again, fixing the kernel is something I did myself. It's about the DAC supporting altsettings that are being available. Then the kernel can be (easily) patched to support a specific DAC.

 

Yes, they advertise native DSD256 Linux, so there is no reason the microRendu shouldn't be working. BTW, which OEM USB module are they using?

[JohnDonaldson]

8 hours ago, spockfish said:

 

We're talking specifically about native DSD via a Linux endpoint (as the microRendu). I'm still amazed (and frustrated) that W4S is not providing this, as any other DAC supplier does. And furthermore, the supplier of the OEM USB module probably already does. So it's a matter of priority I guess...

 

 

I understand that W4S is a small operation with limited technical resources so they must use them wisely. I also understand native DSD through the microRendu and their DAC2 is not a high priority issue for them. Even so, given the time gone by and the number of W4S customers requesting this I am disappointed and frustrated they have not been able to make this happen yet. I know Tony monitors this thread so hopefully he will tell EJ about the recent discontent of W4S customers in their posts here and that will raise the priority for support of native DSD through the microRendu.

[lexicon1]

9 hours ago, JohnDonaldson said:

I understand that W4S is a small operation with limited technical resources so they must use them wisely. I also understand native DSD through the microRendu and their DAC2 is not a high priority issue for them. Even so, given the time gone by and the number of W4S customers requesting this I am disappointed and frustrated they have not been able to make this happen yet. I know Tony monitors this thread so hopefully he will tell EJ about the recent discontent of W4S customers in their posts here and that will raise the priority for support of native DSD through the microRendu.

I can understand your frustration, however, how many companies have you ever called and been able to talk with the chief figure ? I have several W4S components and they do what they are supposed to do. i have also met EJ at the Newport audio show . I called him with a few questions on my previous dac upgrade. Look......, early adopters usually have growing pains and that is whats going on here. EJ is a stand up guy and patience is necessary to get every  variation being requested to  adapt to the new Dac configuration. Wish you well with your new dac. they will take care of you. 

[Wyred 4 Sound]

Hi all,

Happy Friday evening to everyone and hopefully some good music listening over the next couple of days! EJ and I have read some of the recent comments regarding the new Singxer I2S converter and the microrendu and thought it best to address them now rather than let things linger through the weekend. 

We have a Singxer unit coming to us next week that we'll be able to take a look at. This is a relatively new development and as a hardware company, we make every effort to ensure that our I2S implementation conforms to industry standards and is compatible with as many products as possible. Such is not always the case, but it’s always our goal. We’re not sure why the Singxer has a reported incompatibility or even if the Singxer’s implementation is just not compatible with ours, but we’ll know more next week and post our findings. 

Regarding the microrendu, this is something we also want to work as much as many of you. Just as we recently worked tirelessly to fix the 9038 chip DSD issues in just a couple weeks' time, if this were a strictly local (in-house) issue, it certainly would have been resolved long ago. However, anytime there are multiple platforms involved, it’s a collaborative effort between parties to resolve any inconsistencies. Our USB implementation should be compatible, but the issue is with linking our DAC with the microrendu’s OS. EJ has spoken personally with many of you on this, as well as spoken to Jesus of Sonore on multiple occasions. It’s been a bit of a moving target and the team effort of the involved parties needs to continue to work to come to a resolution. It's important to also keep in mind that what we've been told is that native DSD support is meant to work with XMOS devices, others by nature are incompatible with the driver at this point. You can read on Sonore's page the following: "Native DSD playback can produce noise between tracks, change in rate, and when playback is paused/stopped/resummed. This noise is expected and depends on your DAC's firmware. The noise can be at full volume. For best results select DoP for DSD playback."

 

For our part, we apologize for any inconvenience on this. Since we’d like to have it work as much as you would, be assured that it is something we're working on with Sonore and hopefully it can be resolved soon.

 

Thanks and have a great weekend.

Tony

[spockfish]

On 3/25/2017 at 3:34 AM, Wyred 4 Sound said:

Hi all,

Happy Friday evening to everyone and hopefully some good music listening over the next couple of days! EJ and I have read some of the recent comments regarding the new Singxer I2S converter and the microrendu and thought it best to address them now rather than let things linger through the weekend. 

We have a Singxer unit coming to us next week that we'll be able to take a look at. This is a relatively new development and as a hardware company, we make every effort to ensure that our I2S implementation conforms to industry standards and is compatible with as many products as possible. Such is not always the case, but it’s always our goal. We’re not sure why the Singxer has a reported incompatibility or even if the Singxer’s implementation is just not compatible with ours, but we’ll know more next week and post our findings. 

Regarding the microrendu, this is something we also want to work as much as many of you. Just as we recently worked tirelessly to fix the 9038 chip DSD issues in just a couple weeks' time, if this were a strictly local (in-house) issue, it certainly would have been resolved long ago. However, anytime there are multiple platforms involved, it’s a collaborative effort between parties to resolve any inconsistencies. Our USB implementation should be compatible, but the issue is with linking our DAC with the microrendu’s OS. EJ has spoken personally with many of you on this, as well as spoken to Jesus of Sonore on multiple occasions. It’s been a bit of a moving target and the team effort of the involved parties needs to continue to work to come to a resolution. It's important to also keep in mind that what we've been told is that native DSD support is meant to work with XMOS devices, others by nature are incompatible with the driver at this point. You can read on Sonore's page the following: "Native DSD playback can produce noise between tracks, change in rate, and when playback is paused/stopped/resummed. This noise is expected and depends on your DAC's firmware. The noise can be at full volume. For best results select DoP for DSD playback."

 

For our part, we apologize for any inconvenience on this. Since we’d like to have it work as much as you would, be assured that it is something we're working on with Sonore and hopefully it can be resolved soon.

 

Thanks and have a great weekend.

Tony

Tony,

 

I don't want be disrespectful, but I really think you should be more clear. Good that you mention that the v2 is equipped with XMOS devices. And yeah, there are patches available for the Linux kernel ("the MicroRendu OS"), but it requires *every* DAC to be specifically added. 

 

I've done this with the v2 DAC, but the problem is that the current firmware version (at least in my v2) does *not* provide altsettings (which is being used to do native DSD). And that is the problem why native DSD does not work.

 

The 'noise between tracks' is a known issue in the current Linux kernel implementation, but that is also already worked on and has nothing to do with native DSD in itself.

 

Coming back to XMOS. If you're using XMOS inside the v2 architecture I'm even more surprised, as they provide firmware that *is* capable of doing native DSD in Linux (it still requires a kernel patch, but that's besides the point). 

[JohnDonaldson]

On 3/24/2017 at 10:02 PM, lexicon1 said:

I can understand your frustration, however, how many companies have you ever called and been able to talk with the chief figure ? I have several W4S components and they do what they are supposed to do. i have also met EJ at the Newport audio show . I called him with a few questions on my previous dac upgrade. Look......, early adopters usually have growing pains and that is whats going on here. EJ is a stand up guy and patience is necessary to get every  variation being requested to  adapt to the new Dac configuration. Wish you well with your new dac. they will take care of you. 

As a long time early adapter of new technology I am painfully aware of the challenges that can result and can deal with them. What disappoints and frustrates me is that I first contacted W4S about this last May. I do appreciate there are significant challenges as Tony describes in his later posting but never in in my experience has it taken this long to resolve an early adapter problem. I know EJ and W4S are among the good guys in this industry so I am sorry to be so harsh about this, my frustration has just got the better of me.

 

[JohnDonaldson]

On 3/24/2017 at 10:34 PM, Wyred 4 Sound said:

Regarding the microrendu, this is something we also want to work as much as many of you. Just as we recently worked tirelessly to fix the 9038 chip DSD issues in just a couple weeks' time, if this were a strictly local (in-house) issue, it certainly would have been resolved long ago. However, anytime there are multiple platforms involved, it’s a collaborative effort between parties to resolve any inconsistencies. Our USB implementation should be compatible, but the issue is with linking our DAC with the microrendu’s OS. EJ has spoken personally with many of you on this, as well as spoken to Jesus of Sonore on multiple occasions. It’s been a bit of a moving target and the team effort of the involved parties needs to continue to work to come to a resolution. It's important to also keep in mind that what we've been told is that native DSD support is meant to work with XMOS devices, others by nature are incompatible with the driver at this point. You can read on Sonore's page the following: "Native DSD playback can produce noise between tracks, change in rate, and when playback is paused/stopped/resummed. This noise is expected and depends on your DAC's firmware. The noise can be at full volume. For best results select DoP for DSD playback."

 

 

In my search for my next DAC I have auditioned a couple DACs that can do native DSD with the microRendu and am well aware of the “noise” problem. From what I read this “noise” is nearly universal among DACs capable of native DSD with the microRendu. I am not asking W4S to fix this since many folks, much more knowledgeable in digital audio the me, suggest the most likely cause of the “noise’ is within Linux. While I would be overjoyed if W4S could also fix that problem I am only asking for my W4S DAC2 to support native DSD with my microRendu.

[ksalno]

On 3/24/2017 at 0:56 AM, ksalno said:

Just received my upgraded DAC2v2SE tonight. I still have it burning in but I can comment on a couple things mentioned on this forum. I'm using JRMC 22 running on an AO optimized Win10 SOtM sMS-1000SQ with USB out. I tried these combos:

 

1. USB direct to DAC2 - works fine in all modes using the W4S ASIO driver
2. USB to Hydra-Z with i2s to DAC2 - can't get the AudioByte driver to work at all, so unable to test this combo
3. USB to Singxer SU-1 with i2s to DAC2 - as reported, DSD works fine up to and including 256 (4X), PCM results in noise
4. Roon Server running on Sonic Transporter over wired network to SOtM sMS-200 connected to the Singxer SU-1 streams all DSD up to 256 with no problem

I haven't had a chance to try Roon via microRendu yet. Will give that a shot tomorrow night. 

 

I got the Hyrda Z working with Mac and Win 10 this weekend and it plays both PCM and DSD just fine through the W4S DAC2v2SE, I had to use native DSD streaming (DoP disabled) to stream 256 (4X) but other than that there are no issues with DSD through the Hydra. It also plays all resolutions of PCM without issue, except for some 24/352.8 recordings I have. These played but there are frequent drop-outs. They play fine over USB into the DAC, so I assume this is some issue with the Hydra.

 

For those with issues with the microRendu, maybe you want to try the SOtM sMS-200 as an endpoint. Mine streams DSD up to 256 through a SU-1 with no issues.

[KDinsmore]

I've got about 40 hours on the v2se. Ooooooooooo......La........La...........

[audio.bill]

14 minutes ago, KDinsmore said:

I've got about 40 hours on the v2se. Ooooooooooo......La........La...........

Sounds promising, any further details on your impressions would be appreciated, what other DACs you've compared it with, etc. TIA and enjoy the tunes with your new DAC!