Wyred 4 Sound Dac2SE Upgrade Revisited & Findings -- The Best Decision Unequivocally!

[Wizzer]

3 minutes ago, ksalno said:

Is the issue with all formats or just DSD?

Cd playback ,.I haven't tried anything else .

[Ienag]

6 hours ago, Franatic said:

Hi SU-1 owners,

I have been in contact with Leter of Singxer.    [email protected]  

We have communicated about the SU-1/W4S i2s issues. Leter has stated to me a commitment to investigate and find solutions to the issues. He has tried to register on the forum but for some reason can't. He has asked me to forward some statements for the SU-1/W4S issues:

Leter says:

1.First of all, thank you for all consumers's support for our products;

We will provide quality after-sales service.

2.We have been paying attention to and solving this problem since the customer response.

i had send an email to Tony(wyred4sound).we will discuss how to solve this problem.

3.i had buy a W4S DAC2SE(the 9018 version). I will receive it tomorrow.Then conduct a comprehensive test.

4.W4S had moded a SU-1 for Fran.If anyone wants to try this method,we can ship him some capacitors for free shipment.

*******************************************************************************

I am very happy to see the commitment from Singxer to solve this issue. We know it is a new device and i2s is a format that seems to have various protocols. I am pleased that W4S and Singxer will work together to make the units i2s compatible. That Singxer has bought a DAC2 to work this out shows a sense of responsibility to support their products.

Thank you Fran

I'm trying to do other tests with an expert friend of mine to support Leter to better understand the phase +I2S+ dsd problem and then solve the problem.

Next days we will work on it.

I'm confident Singxer will give us the final solution at the end.

[ksalno]

2 hours ago, Wizzer said:

Cd playback ,.I haven't tried anything else .

I'd guess it's a pin-out incompatibility between the PWT and the DAC2V2SE. From looking into the issues with the Singxer I know they have one configuration for the PS Audio DAC and a different pin-out (using switches) for other DACs. You'd have to try to get pin specs from each vendor to confirm but that's my guess. 

 

 

[Wizzer]

20 minutes ago, ksalno said:

I'd guess it's a pin-out incompatibility between the PWT and the DAC2V2SE. From looking into the issues with the Singxer I know they have one configuration for the PS Audio DAC and a different pin-out (using switches) for other DACs. You'd have to try to get pin specs from each vendor to confirm but that's my guess. 

 

 

Ksalno thanks for the reply , I think your right .

[Franatic]

34 minutes ago, ksalno said:

I'd guess it's a pin-out incompatibility between the PWT and the DAC2V2SE. From looking into the issues with the Singxer I know they have one configuration for the PS Audio DAC and a different pin-out (using switches) for other DACs. You'd have to try to get pin specs from each vendor to confirm but that's my guess. 

 

 

Ksalno, Wizzer, the i2s should work between the W4S and the PS PWT. Tony Holt has told me that they use a PWT in their test setup to test the W4S i2s input. At least they should be pin compatible.

It is hard to say which unit is at fault here. It may be in the setup of the W4S.

[GUTB]

Looks like I'll have the chance to listen to the DAC2v2se at AXPONA next week. They apparently will have some there at a show discount.

[Wizzer]

8 minutes ago, Franatic said:

Ksalno, Wizzer, the i2s should work between the W4S and the PS PWT. Tony Holt has told me that they use a PWT in their test setup to test the W4S i2s input. At least they should be pin compatible.

It is hard to say which unit is at fault here. It may be in the setup of the W4S.

Thanks for the info Franatic , I read that somewhere W4S using a PWT with that it was one of the reasons I purchased the PS Audio , 

Both components were a recent buy fir a second little system , the W4s dac was purchased used just 3 months ago and the PS Audio transport was recently purchased as a refurbished component so I guess if I ask for the pin configuration from the both manufacturers should hopefully solve the mystery,.

[Ienag]

Some news by Singxer even if partial.

leter, with a w4s in place, was able to find the problem with W4S and Su1 playing dsd through I2S, there is in this case one channel with the phase inverted.

singxer will try to make a new firmware to solve the problem even if it take some time and additional effort.

I must say that W4S is not able to offer to its costumers the firmware update and this of course doesn't give any possibility to have any further improvement if it will be any.

now we are in the hands of Leter to have a perfect sinergy between our dac and the  SU-1 through I2S that seems to be the better connection in terms of pure sound

[MINORISUKE]

My SU-1 (firmware v202, all the dip switch "off") has no issue of DSD polarity Inversion, neither with PS Audio DS DAC Junior nor Matrix X-Sabre Pro which has the same I2S input pin assignment.  I wonder if the I2S input specifications of W4S for DSD are really the same as those of PS Audio. If yes, the manufacturer should be able to prove this.
 

[Franatic]

14 minutes ago, MINORISUKE said:

My SU-1 (firmware v202, all the dip switch "off") has no issue of DSD polarity Inversion, neither with PS Audio DS DAC Junior nor Matrix X-Sabre Pro which has the same I2S input pin assignment.  I wonder if the I2S input specifications of W4S for DSD are really the same as those of PS Audio. If yes, the manufacturer should be able to prove this.
 

Hi Minorisuke, I was just wondering about this. Thank you for posting here. If the W4S i2s pin out differs from PS Audio, then they should fix it on their end. If Singxer fixes it then we will have differing protocols here. In the end I just want my i2s DSD phasing correct, but lets get it fixed the correct way.

 

Also, Leter was able to fix the PCM issue by adding a capacitor to the DAC2, much as W4S did to the my Singxer SU-1. This shows a compatibility issue with the W4S DAC2 that does not exist with the PS Audio PW DAC.

 

BTW, just for clarification, W4S states that they follow the PS Audio i2s protocol. W4S?????

[MINORISUKE]

4 minutes ago, Franatic said:

Hi Minorisuke, I was just wondering about this. Thank you for posting here. If the W4S i2s pin out differs from PS Audio, then they should fix it on their end. If Singxer fixes it then we will have differing protocols here. In the end I just want my i2s DSD phasing correct, but lets get it fixed the correct way.

 

Also, Leter was able to fix the PCM issue by adding a capacitor to the DAC2, much as W4S did to the my Singxer SU-1. This shows a compatibility issue with the W4S DAC2 that does not exist with the PS Audio PW DAC.

 

W4S?????

 

As there is already an insider of W4S on this thread, let us wait for his explanation.
What I feel uncomfortable is the attitude of several people that the famous brand never makes a mistake and those unknown small newcomers are to blame.

[MINORISUKE]

My assumption is that W4S is responsible for both issues: DSD absolute polarity swap and PCM noise.
As I wrote, I see no issue with at least two products that are based on PS Audio I2S pin assignment.
I also own Gustard DAC-X20.  With SU-1 firmware v202 with No.3 and 6 dip switch "on," there are no such issues, either.
W4S must fix them free of charge for their customers, instead of charging USD 125/h for a capacitor and ignoring the polarity swap issue.

[ksalno]

I'm not sure anyone can be blamed given the lack of any standards for using I2S between components. Remember, I2S was originally intended for internal connections within a device controlled by a single designer and manufacturer. There are no agreed standards for the pin configuration for using I2S between devices from different manufacturers. However, given the small number of DAC manufacturers with I2S inputs and the limited number of source devices with I2S output, it would seem to be in everyone's best interest, especially the customers, for them to get together and agree on a standard amongst themselves. 

[Ienag]

Hi Minorisuke,

you could be right but here there is a problem only for customers of both W4S and Singxer.

The real risk is tk remain in a dead zone in particular for customers.

W4S cannot make available a new firmware for download and propose to send the Dac to their factory, impossible for an European customer.

Singxer could provide a custom firmware to solve the problem even if and perhaps on W4S responsability. 

I think that Singxer if want could only reach a bigger reputation and we can only be grateful to Singxer for any kind of solution.

 

[spockfish]

Yeah. If I knew upfront that the W4S DAC's are not capable of uploading a new firmware release by yourself I would have *never* bought one. 

 

Now I'm stuck with a DAC that can't stream native DSD on Linux (which *requires* new firmware), and I'm not able to update the firmware myself (considering that at some point W4S will release a new firmware update).

 

Heavily disappointed customer here.

[Franatic]

I was unaware of the DAC2's inability to receive firmware upgrades via its usb port. That is a severe limitation in capability.

This, as stated above, puts us in a position to rely upon Singxer for the "fix" of this issue. I'm sure no one wants to send their DAC to W4S for a firmware upgrade.

Yes, Singxer can do a great service here by making custom firmware for the W4S DAC2. Singxer can come out of this looking very good indeed.

Please Leter, make custom software for us!.......and thank you for purchasing a DAC2 so you could investigate the issues.

[Ienag]

Also HOLO Dac by Kitsune seems to have the same I2S implementation as W4S.

everyone can verify the schemes on the website

[MINORISUKE]

By checking W4S home page, I could not find the I2S pin assignment of their products.
They never say it is the same as that of PS Audio.  In that sense, W4S is not responsible for "changing" the pin assignment, as nothing has been committed.

 

Holo Audio DAC can be used with SU-1 properly with v200 firmware and all the dip switch "off," as described in SU-1 product page on Taobao by Singxer.

 

As for DSD native playback on Linux, if you use combo384 with the latest firmware or Gustard U12, for example, and make the correct HDMI wiring (even without knowing W4S I2S specifications?), it is possible to play DSD native with WS4.  Some USB-DDCs are supported in the latest Linux kernel for DSD native playback.  SU-1 has not been included yet, unfortunately.
I use LKS USB-100 (= combo384) to connect Matrix X-Sabre Pro via a straight HDMI cable and can play DSD512 native.  DAC-X20 (Pro) can be connected as well, but with a modified wiring.

[Ienag]

2 hours ago, Franatic said:

I was unaware of the DAC2's inability to receive firmware upgrades via its usb port. That is a severe limitation in capability.

This, as stated above, puts us in a position to rely upon Singxer for the "fix" of this issue. I'm sure no one wants to send their DAC to W4S for a firmware upgrade.

Yes, Singxer can do a great service here by making custom firmware for the W4S DAC2. Singxer can come out of this looking very good indeed.

Please Leter, make custom software for us!.......and thank you for purchasing a DAC2 so you could investigate the issues.

 

We hope in Singxer Fran... they are very professional !

[Ienag]

37 minutes ago, MINORISUKE said:

By checking W4S home page, I could not find the I2S pin assignment of their products.
They never say it is the same as that of PS Audio.  In that sense, W4S is not responsible for "changing" the pin assignment, as nothing has been committed.

 

Holo Audio DAC can be used with SU-1 properly with v200 firmware and all the dip switch "off," as described in SU-1 product page on Taobao by Singxer.

 

As for DSD native playback on Linux, if you use combo384 with the latest firmware or Gustard U12, for example, and make the correct HDMI wiring (even without knowing W4S I2S specifications?), it is possible to play DSD native with WS4.  Some USB-DDCs are supported in the latest Linux kernel for DSD native playback.  SU-1 has not been included yet, unfortunately.
I use LKS USB-100 (= combo384) to connect Matrix X-Sabre Pro via a straight HDMI cable and can play DSD512 native.  DAC-X20 (Pro) can be connected as well, but with a modified wiring.

 

Have you tried Holo dac with dsd and I2S? Take in consideration that anyone noticed the phase problem on one channel before I wrote about it on this forum.

If you or someone else could confirm it on Holo this could be another useful info.

[Ienag]

Attached,  This is the I2S for Holo and W4S

i2s.pdf

[MINORISUKE]

1 minute ago, Ienag said:

Attached,  This is the I2S for Holo and W4S

i2s.pdf

 

I am aware of this famous document.  It is a mere "assumption" by the authors of this document and not issued by W4S officially.

[Franatic]

2 minutes ago, MINORISUKE said:

 

I am aware of this famous document.  It is a mere "assumption" by the authors of this document and not issued by W4S officially.

From the W4S website:

https://wyred4sound.com/faq/what-dac-2-dsd-dsdse-v2-i2s-pin-configuration

[Ienag]

Understood, then remains only a big confusion about I2S.....

[Ienag]

2 minutes ago, Franatic said:

From the W4S website:

https://wyred4sound.com/faq/what-dac-2-dsd-dsdse-v2-i2s-pin-configuration

 

Hi Fran,  W4S confirm than what I'm saying?

In this case also Holo dac should be tested with singxer

In any case we hope Leter will help us...