Sound Stage, Image . . . Need Help

[4est]

Personally I have not much cared for the equilateral triangle set up as shown. I use an isosceles triangle. Upon adjustment, it turns out that the distance from the speaker to my ears is very close to the golden ratio (1.618x) the distance they are apart from each other. Roughly 7' & 11.5', 6' from the back wall in a smaller room- 15'x21'x8'.

[Audio_ELF]

Not using control/crossover in speaker as I am bi-amped.

I hope this doesn't come across I'm suggesting you're daft: but I assume you mean there is an external crossover, not that you have a full range signal connected directly to each driver?

 

Eloise

[HIFI]

I hope this doesn't come across I'm suggesting you're daft: but I assume you mean there is an external crossover, not that you have a full range signal connected directly to each driver?

 

Eloise

I have an electronic x-over before amps.

 

I have been "daft" before . . . it is painful.

[bdiament]

Hi 4est,

 

Personally I have not much cared for the equilateral triangle set up as shown. I use an isosceles triangle. Upon adjustment, it turns out that the distance from the speaker to my ears is very close to the golden ratio (1.618x) the distance they are apart from each other. Roughly 7' & 11.5', 6' from the back wall in a smaller room- 15'x21'x8'.

 

Agreed 100%.

 

This is easily verified if one gets the speakers (and listening position) *close* to the correct position for the room, then simply leans forward and backward in the listening chair. The effect is akin to rotating the lens on a camera from inside to outside of focus: there is a position where the stage and the images upon it will "snap" into focus. In my experience, this invariable ends up being in a position creating an isosceles triangle.

 

HiFi, you might be interested in this. I hope it proves of interest.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[4est]

Hi 4est,

 

 

 

Agreed 100%.

 

This is easily verified if one gets the speakers (and listening position) *close* to the correct position for the room, then simply leans forward and backward in the listening chair. The effect is akin to rotating the lens on a camera from inside to outside of focus: there is a position where the stage and the images upon it will "snap" into focus. In my experience, this invariable ends up being in a position creating an isosceles triangle.

 

HiFi, you might be interested in this. I hope it proves of interest.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

 

Nice to be in good company!

[wgscott]

I on the other hand would be happy to tell you that Jim's book and accompanying DVD would be worth every penny.

[designmule]

In one setup, I've got a pair of Mirage omnipolar speakers. A I recall they recommend a triangle where the distance from listener to speaker is 1.5 times the distance between the speakers. Unfortunately, they haven't remained in that configuration but when they were, the soundstage had nice depth.

[HIFI]

HiFi, you might be interested in this. I hope it proves of interest.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

 

Thanks Barry, I have looked at your article in great detail months ago when I was lost on something else and your guidance helped me then.

 

The triangle position is working, with no toe.

 

BTW . . . I moved cabinet further away from speaker. I moved amps back, apart, unstacked. I removed quarter traps on front wall. I removed mid trap on front wall. Removed quarter and mid traps. Moved speakers closer together. Moved speakers closer to front wall. Fooled with my listening seat. Put traps back in one set at a time. In most of these indivdule moves I lost the space between instruments and leads. Stage width shrunk or disappeared to the sound of two box's in my room. At this point I went to bed after spending several hours. I needed to get back with fresh ears. I woke up next morning and it was a real struggle to get the speakers to dissapear in the room. I am back to same speaker placement and seat placement after a few more movement combinations. I am very thankful I got it back as it took hours of very small movements including the front wall treatments. I wish I had marked the placement of everything, not just speakers.

 

My next test will be to move the speakers deeper into my room along with a deeper listening postion. While this is not pratical for my family home I just want to try to see what kind of depth image I might produce with a great deal of space between front wall and speaker plane.

[sandyk]

[i have an electronic x-over before amps. /QUOTE]

 

What type of X-over is it ? Is it analogue or digital. If it is analogue, what opamps does it use and how many sections does it have ?

Poorly implemented electronic x-overs can seriously degrade spatial information. We have a couple of resident experts in this area who should be able to further advise about correct setting up of the x-overs etc.

[mayhem13]

Sorry I missed this point about an external XO............WHAT?.....

[HIFI]

[i have an electronic x-over before amps. /QUOTE]

 

What type of X-over is it ? Is it analogue or digital. If it is analogue, what opamps does it use and how many sections does it have ?

Poorly implemented electronic x-overs can seriously degrade spatial information. We have a couple of resident experts in this area who should be able to further advise about correct setting up of the x-overs etc.

The electronic and analog x-over is a same brand as speakers and is as old as speakers . . . 30 plus years old. Because of age I am unable to answer any of your construction questions and there is no one at the company, ESS, that was there back when speakers and x-over were built.

[mav52]

The electronic and analog x-over is a same brand as speakers and is as old as speakers . . . 30 plus years old. Because of age I am unable to answer any of your construction questions and there is no one at the company, ESS, that was there back when speakers and x-over were built.

 

an idea, why don't you demo a new pair of speakers in your home. There are a lot of companies that have a 30 day demo period. At least you would know if it's your speakers, or not.

[mitchco]

Hi HIFI

 

Do you have a measurement mic/preamp so you could run REW? One sweep will give you:

 

• Frequency response – maybe there is a problem, maybe not.
  
• Impulse response – identify early reflections that skew stereo image, including depth.
  
• RT60 and room decay – is the room too dead, too bright, just right?
  

 

Anyway, REW could assist in identifying what the issue may be as there have been several suggestions.

 

On another note, readers CA may be interested to know that the majority of recording studio control rooms and mastering facilities have monitoring setup to follow ITU or Dolby guidelines, which for stereo, is an equilateral triangle. See attached docs.

 

Both Dolby Labs, “5.1 Channel Music Production Guidelines”, and “ITU-R BS.775-1* MULTICHANNEL STEREOPHONIC SOUND SYSTEM”,(ANNEX 1 for stereo) have similar guidelines.

 

Every control room I have been in is setup this way. As a recording/mixing engineer, I want you to hear back exactly the way I mixed it, including stereo image. So, if the majority of music is mixed and mastered using these guidelines, then it makes sense to have the same configuration on playback to accurately decode the stereo image. Just sayin.

 

Cheers, Mitch

dolby5.1.pdf

ITU-R BS775-1.pdf

[souptin]

I'm isosceles. Scarily close to the golden section ratio too. Not too sure if that puts me in good company, I feel like I'm the tramp gatecrashing a garden party. FWIW I used to be equilateral, which suited my TT and CDP nicely, but my attempts to realise the best out of a computer + dac with the same amplification & speakers have forced a re-think.

 

Make of that what you will, different speakers different room and so on. I think Mr HIFI is doing exactly the right thing by experimenting with placement and acoustics. Also I can relate to needing a (long!) rest after moving everything around. It may be a free, and potentially highly rewarding tweak but it sure does wear you out. More power to your elbows, knees and back sir!

[Guidof]

Lots of good input from different perspectives and experiences!

 

Not to suggest that what you are looking for is unobtainable, BUT have you tried to close your eyes at a live performance and attempted to detect soundstage depth that way?

 

I have, and was surprised to find that while there was SOME depth information, it was not as obvious as that available when eyes were open.

 

Just a thought.

 

Best luck!

 

Guido F.

[HIFI]

Lots of good input from different perspectives and experiences!

 

Not to suggest that what you are looking for is unobtainable, BUT have you tried to close your eyes at a live performance and attempted to detect soundstage depth that way?

 

I have, and was surprised to find that while there was SOME depth information, it was not as obvious as that available when eyes were open.

 

Just a thought.

 

Best luck!

 

Guido F.

Eyes closed/open was discussed in another thread months ago. While I never repied I must say I am an EYES OPEN listener. I think it is a good check now and then for a different point of view and I have been trying this lately as my listening/room adjustments have been running long. For the most part I forbid people to close eyes in my listening seat. This may be a mistake on my part and have to do with my brain and how I personally process information.

 

Guido . . . thanks for jumping in and your suggestion is GOOD.

[Boris75]

BUT have you tried to close your eyes at a live performance and attempted to detect soundstage depth that way?

 

I have, and was surprised to find that while there was SOME depth information, it was not as obvious as that available when eyes were open.

 

 

I have exactly the same experience as you. And I would add that, every time my seat was far from the center of the concert hall, soundstage depth was close to zilch.

[Guidof]

While I have scaled down my expectations of soundstage depth, I do think that an impression of soundstage three-dimensionality is obtainable and is important in fostering the illusion of live performance. In my experience, the adjustment that contributes the most to this effect is the fine tuning of the bass frequencies, especially the careful integration of the subwoofer. The DSPeaker Dual Core has been helpful in this respect, in my system.

 

Guido F.

[Paul R]

I think you hit something there. I know enhanced bass response will wipe out soundstage, especially depth, in the blink of an eye. It is one of the reasons I tend to not like too much bass response. I don't actually like the "blooming" sound, or rather, I like it in very small doses.

 

-Paul

 

 

While I have scaled down my expectations of soundstage depth, I do think that an impression of soundstage three-dimensionality is obtainable and is important in fostering the illusion of live performance. In my experience, the adjustment that contributes the most to this effect is the fine tuning of the bass frequencies, especially the careful integration of the subwoofer. The DSPeaker Dual Core has been helpful in this respect, in my system.

 

Guido F.

[HIFI]

While I have scaled down my expectations of soundstage depth . . . Guido F.

I am interested in this statement . . .

 

I have spent much time in trying to get sound as right as I know . . . also dealing with some of the compromises I have at hand.

 

I do have some front to rear interpretation. It is just not expansive like my left/right interpretation. Maybe I should change my expectations to something more realistic. It certainly would help me enjoy the system more knowing I am "proportionately" close. Is this kind of what you are saying Guido?

 

I admit I was focusing on getting the bass right first (seating position) and then center focus and left/right detail. I may have compromised bass without knowing through some of my incremental moves. When I got what I thought was as good as it can get I felt like I was transported to the recording. I hear the size of the room. This, to me is the real sound goal. Not a performance in my room but a performance in the original recorded venue.

 

So what happened to sour my sound? I started to get critical about the forward position of a lead singer in many of my recordings. They just appear to be too far back. Moving speakers closer together improve this but now there is too much attention to each speaker. So for now I am settling in for a few listening sessions with a compromise of speaker width placement. I will see if I can continue to be transformed to the recording.

[Guidof]

I think you hit something there. I know enhanced bass response will wipe out soundstage, especially depth, in the blink of an eye. It is one of the reasons I tend to not like too much bass response. I don't actually like the "blooming" sound, or rather, I like it in very small doses.

 

-Paul

 

Yes, I used to try and set my sub's gain by listening for the bass (and using bass-heavy recordings). As a result, I tended to end up with too much bass. Then I realized that there was a point, just before the low frequencies became too obvious, where the soundstage became more three-dimensional. It turns out that in my system that is also the point at which the sub is well integrated and provides enough foundation. But there was still too much "bloom." Now, with the DSPeaker in the system I was able to remove the excess bloom and restore transparency, which I think actually helps the soundstage. Oh, yes, and in this process I used a variety of recordings, not just the bass-heavy ones.

 

Guido F.

[Guidof]

HIFI: I think that at times we may become overly ambitious. If you can "hear the room," I think you are doing pretty well as is!

 

Dont forget that we are listening to recordings, not a real live event. Placement of singers and instruments on the soundstage will be affected by microphone placement, balance choices of the engineer, post-production EQ and compression, and what not.

 

I wonder if in this case pursuit of the perfect may not be the enemy of enjoyment of the good.

 

Happy listening!

 

Guido F.

[Jeff In San Diego]

Keep in mind that the depth you seek may not even exist in the recordings you're using. For example, any recording that was "close mic'ed" (such as microphones on each part of a drum kit and microphones stuffed down inside a piano, etc.)...there just isn't any depth information in the recording. The left-to-right "soundstage" that you hear on such a recording is "fake". It is concocted by the mixing engineer.

 

Only a very "low tech" recording with a small number of microphones intelligently placed will have good authentic sound staging.

 

Unfortunately, the percentage of properly recorded music is very tiny. The percentage goes down as you approach modern day. It also varies widely depending on your preferred type of music.

[4est]

Jeff has a good point. I have a test record from XLO. Part of it has a guy walking around the studio as he talks and claps, and it is very good at displaying depth and sound stage.

[mav52]

Jeff has a good point. I have a test record from XLO. Part of it has a guy walking around the studio as he talks and claps, and it is very good at displaying depth and sound stage.

 

4est, I have this gold disc from XLO, XLO/ REFERENCE RECORDINGS TEST & BURN-IN CD, it that the one. I also use these Stereophile & Home Theater Magazines Store :: Stereophile Test Discs and have these, Various Artists - The Super Audio Collection & Professional Test Disc and Rives Test CD 2