Why does vinyl still exist?

[Jud]

Or just buy one of these ELP Laser Turntable |

 

I don't recall for sure, but wasn't that rig so sensitive that surface noise was an issue?

[Norton]

I don't recall for sure, but wasn't that rig so sensitive that surface noise was an issue?

 

Don't know about that, but I did hear that LPs have to be kept clean meticulously.

In all seriousness, I hope to audition at some point when I'm sufficiently in funds to contemplate buying one, the fairly steep entry price doesn't look so bad considering it's the equivalent of deck, arm, cartridge and phono stage.

[PopPop]

It may not sound like vinyl in the way that some expect, not having the mechanical transducer. This may be a case of chasing the rainbow backward.

[gmgraves]

I don't recall for sure, but wasn't that rig so sensitive that surface noise was an issue?

 

 

Yes it was. This product had, what was probably, the longest gestation period of any audio product in history.Over the years I've seen/heard it many times at CES and various Hi-Fi shows. The first time I saw it, in the 1980's, it was a proof of concept model and wasn't working. The next time I saw it, a different group of people, going by the name of "Finial" were promoting it and it worked, but, I noticed that they had stacks of unopened copies of the same groups of recordings piled up in the corner of the room. Later I heard a couple of people talking about it and they were saying that the thing was so sensitive to surface noise, that they had to switch to new, pristine copies of their demonstration records often because just the dust in the room eventually made any record played on the thing sound like a loud bowl of Rice Crispies! I saw it agin, several years later being demo'd by some Japanese gentlemen (ELP?) and I guessed it was the same unit as the Finial, (it Certainly looked the same) and so I looked around for fresh copies of the records being played and sure enough they were tucked next to one of the night stands where the hotel room's bed normally was, so I assumed that they still hadn't licked the surface noise problem. Also, I never thought that it sounded particularly inspiring. I mean that I guess it was remarkable enough for the developers that the concept worked at all, they didn't seem to mind that it sounded closer to a cheap $99 Technics direct-drive deck with a $15 Audio Technica cartridge than it did a Project Debut Carbon turntable with an Ortofon 2M Blue cartridge fitted! IOW, it certainly appealed to the "gadgeteer" in many of us, but wouldn't appeal to the audiophile in any of us! For what it cost, one could buy a fine normal turntable with a great arm and cartridge that will get more out of any vinyl played on it than the ELP ever could - even if it rendered badly scratched records totally silent (which it doesn't - in fact that last time I read about one, it was said that the thing actually makes small scratches sound worse and big ones could destroy speakers!).

[gmgraves]

It may not sound like vinyl in the way that some expect, not having the mechanical transducer. This may be a case of chasing the rainbow backward.

 

The times I heard it, it was very mediocre sounding, of course that's been a while. But still, if it's getting the greatest SQ from one's vinyl that one is after, this gadget probably won't provide anywhere near as good an SQ (for the same money) as one could get from a conventional playback system.

[timtom]

Digital trumps vinyl for fidelity. It simply does.

 

Such a binary statement. Perfect for a digital audiophile. Yet it amazes me how much time, money and teeth gnashing digital audiophiles spend on attempting to replicate the analog experience.

[tranz]

Such a binary statement. Perfect for a digital audiophile. Yet it amazes me how much time, money and teeth gnashing digital audiophiles spend on attempting to replicate the analog experience.

 

+1 Bloody difficult!

[Kimo]

Why does vinyl still exist?

 

So that I can re-buy Pink Floyd, the Bealtes, Cheap Trick, Hendrix, etc. after I ditched them the first time for CD, remastered CD, DVD-A, SACD, and high resolution downloads.

[timtom]

Why does vinyl still exist?

 

So that I can re-buy Pink Floyd, the Bealtes, Cheap Trick, Hendrix, etc. after I ditched them the first time for CD, remastered CD, DVD-A, SACD, and high resolution downloads.

 

True!

[legaltrouble]

Why does vinyl still exist?

 

So that I can re-buy Pink Floyd, the Bealtes, Cheap Trick, Hendrix, etc. after I ditched them the first time for CD, remastered CD, DVD-A, SACD, and high resolution downloads.

 

And when I want to play music as something besides background music.

[mkrzych]

Why vinyl still exists, well it is not only about the vinyl sound, but also about the way how you play and set up it - you have nice sleeve, liner notes and whole voodoo to set up TT and the record - kinda hipster's perception as well.

 

Another more important thing is here in my post: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f14-music-analysis-objective-and-subjective/vinyl-rip-vs-orignial-cd-27821/index2.html#post548297

 

I see vinyl as the another source, where you may find releases never done on CD/SACD/High Res or done poor on digital side - that's main reason to look at vinyl. Sound is also important, but again, because digital versions are done poorly nowadays.

[r_w]

Such a binary statement. Perfect for a digital audiophile. Yet it amazes me how much time, money and teeth gnashing digital audiophiles spend on attempting to replicate the analog experience.

 

There are plenty of us that have surpassed it and it never amazes me how impossible some turntablists deem this achievement to be.

 

As I've explained on here many times... if anyone were to 'attend a cut' they would probably not feel very confident on shouting about the fidelity of that format.

 

The problems are mainly:

 

a. Appauling digital mastering and poor understanding of how to optimise digital setups is what most often holds back digital replay.

 

b. Crackles, noise, compression, distortion and mono bass is what often holds back turntables.

 

It's everyone's free choice, neither are guaranteed perfect, but one will get significantly closer to the original studio master and that will be the digital version, when done properly.

 

The sad truth is that there is probably 'better' stuff to play on vinyl, whilst digital holds the most promise.

 

:-)

[Norton]

There are plenty of us that have surpassed it and it never amazes me how impossible some turntablists deem this achievement to be.

 

As I've explained on here many times... if anyone were to 'attend a cut' they would probably not feel very confident on shouting about the fidelity of that format.

 

The problems are mainly:

 

a. Appauling digital mastering and poor understanding of how to optimise digital setups is what most often holds back digital replay.

 

b. Crackles, noise, compression, distortion and mono bass is what often holds back turntables.

 

It's everyone's free choice, neither are guaranteed perfect, but one will get significantly closer to the original studio master and that will be the digital version, when done properly.

 

The sad truth is that there is probably 'better' stuff to play on vinyl, whilst digital holds the most promise.

 

:-)

 

Are you saying that where the original recording was analogue, a digital re- issue will be more true to the original recording than the original LP issued contemporary to that recording? If so I have very rarely heard a CD re-issue for example that matched let alone exceeded the SQ of the original LP. I also note plenty of people on these forums complaining about snap, crackle and pop on their digital replay..lets not pretend it's perfect sound forever either..

[r_w]

No, I'm saying that if you take any 1st gen studio 'unmastered' recording, be it digital or analogue, you can only get close to a perfect copy of it with digital... attend a cut and you'll see why a perfect copy is not realistically possible with vinyl.

 

Now whether a perfect copy is what you personally want is down to preference. E.g. analogue tape isn't a perfect copy but it sounds wonderful all the same.

 

That's all I'm saying, I'm not a digital warrior or a vinyl hater (own an LP12, Zeta, Ortofon Jubilee, Whest Phonostage - sitting about unused).

 

I wholeheartedly agree that still after all these years too many digital systems don't sing, but I don't agree that they are not able to sing, because these days they really can.

 

;-)

 

 

Are you saying that where the original recording was analogue, a digital re- issue will be more true to the original recording than the original LP issued contemporary to that recording? If so I have very rarely heard a CD re-issue for example that matched let alone exceeded the SQ of the original LP. I also note plenty of people on these forums complaining about snap, crackle and pop on their digital replay..lets not pretend it's perfect sound forever either..

[esldude]

No, I'm saying that if you take any 1st gen studio 'unmastered' recording, be it digital or analogue, you can only get close to a perfect copy of it with digital... attend a cut and you'll see why a perfect copy is not realistically possible with vinyl.

 

;-)

 

Yes the great promise of high fidelity digital was to get that near perfect exact copy of the original tapes or other medium. Instead you mostly now get more digitally based effects and processing than was ever before possible in the analog world. Digital's ability to provide very, very high fidelity was turned into worse sound by far in most new recordings as they are released to the public.

[r_w]

Agreed, and it's a shame... 'the ipod generation' and paranoia over being sued for damaged hearing via headphones has added plenty of fuel to that.

 

 

 

Yes the great promise of high fidelity digital was to get that near perfect exact copy of the original tapes or other medium. Instead you mostly now get more digitally based effects and processing than was ever before possible in the analog world. Digital's ability to provide very, very high fidelity was turned into worse sound by far in most new recordings as they are released to the public.

[gmgraves]

Why vinyl still exists, well it is not only about the vinyl sound, but also about the way how you play and set up it - you have nice sleeve, liner notes and whole voodoo to set up TT and the record - kinda hipster's perception as well.

 

Another more important thing is here in my post: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f14-music-analysis-objective-and-subjective/vinyl-rip-vs-orignial-cd-27821/index2.html#post548297

 

I see vinyl as the another source, where you may find releases never done on CD/SACD/High Res or done poor on digital side - that's main reason to look at vinyl. Sound is also important, but again, because digital versions are done poorly nowadays.

 

 

+1! Along with 78's (when applicable), RtoR tape. cassettes, CDs DVD-As, Blu-Rays, SACD, and downloads and streaming. IOW, an embarrassment of riches!

[gmgraves]

Are you saying that where the original recording was analogue, a digital re- issue will be more true to the original recording than the original LP issued contemporary to that recording?

 

Ideally it can be. The problem is that making a recording for release to the public is both an artistic and a manufacturing process. There are many pitfalls in that tortuous, winding road from master tape to final consumer product via that process. Some of it has to do with the procedure, some with the equipment, and some has to do with the prevailing practices when the final product was made. For instance, a remastered release today is likely to be terribly audio-compressed compared to a remaster done in the early nineties. That's because it's the fashionable practice these days (as lamentable as that may be).

 

Using the best practices, a digital copy of a good sounding analog master will sound more true to the original than would, say a vinyl copy of that same master. I have many 24/96 and DSD copies of my analog master tapes of a symphony orchestra, and I can't tell the master playing on my Otari MX-5050 from the one-to-one digital copy I made from it. IOW, they sound, what is, for all practical purposes) identical. I made the copies because it's easier to play a digital file (or even one of the "silver disc" formats) than it is to thread-up a tape (not to mention the dangers of playing a master tape too often). Now going from that digital copy, stored on my computer's HDD to a ready-for-sale CD, DVD, SACD, or Blu-Ray might not yield the same final SQ as is on my digital master. I think I could ensure that it did if I had total charge of the process from end-to-end. But once that digital file leaves my hands, it's out of my control. Anywhere along the road, somebody can make a decision about the sound of which I would not approve and would yield, what would result in a product that did not meet with my approval because it no longer sounds like the master!

 

 

If so I have very rarely heard a CD re-issue for example that matched let alone exceeded the SQ of the original LP. I also note plenty of people on these forums complaining about snap, crackle and pop on their digital replay..lets not pretend it's perfect sound forever either..

 

That is more often true than many people would like to admit. For instance, I don't think any of Phillips' CD releases of Wilma Fine's remastering of the Mercury Living Presence master tapes sound as good as the original LPs cut in the 50's and 60's. Sure, they're much quieter, have a bit more dynamic range (simply because 1/2-track, 15-inch-per-second analog tape has more headroom and better S/N than does vinyl) than do the original vinyl releases, but they don't sound as good.

[howlingfeedback]

I'm not replying to defend Vinyl but just to say vinyl has a diffrent sound, your opening post headilne is, why does vinyl excist? well why does real butter, after all your easy to spead straight from the tub is a godsend, no more rock hard lumps from the fridge, why do some people prefere vintage cars or vintage hi fi, you would think that all fuel guzzling loud machine's would be replaced with 80 to the galon silent family cars.

 

Take a look on E bay at the cost of vintage amps turntables speakers, if modern technology is so good why is it that people are prepered to pay large sums of money for something 30 or 40 years old, an 50' les Paul or a modern day one which costs more, which sounds better.

 

Why in GB tesco's now sell Vinyl, the first time in 25 years why do most bands release as a format, a vinyl version of their work, which is better a plastic cold clunky CD or a gatefold album with nice artwork printed lyrics and even postcards included.

 

I listen to 3 types of format, Digital computer files, High rez recordings, and vinyl, all are very good, Blu ray audio takes some beating, Digital is very good, but so is vinyl and in some circumstances better than Digi.

 

Its true that vinyl degrades, and you have to get off you bum to change sides, you see if you unfold all the tech it dosn't make sense to keep all the old stuff the figures speak for themselves, ditch that old car amp move on because this is better,we were all conned by the birth of the CD I know I was.

 

I can't argue with your tech jargon I don't know enough to give you a fight, but In my reply im trying to show its not always that straightforward and the examples I give you try to get that point across, what I do have though is Ears and Years, a good set of ears and many years of enjoying music.

 

Vinyl is a good format and overall a better music experence, you tend to listen to all the album rather that jump to something else which is so easy to do on your computer so its not just the quality of sound its the way you immerse yourself into the music.

 

To finish off I notice, that you mention your Involved in studio recording, and you mention the band Take That, funny isn't it you could pick up any copy of a CD album of Take That at a boot sale for 20p, but a mint Vinyl copy of Wish you were here by Pink Floyd 20 30 40 pounds or more, seems such a waste of digital.

[sandyk]

well why does real butter, after all your easy to spead straight from the tub is a godsend, no more rock hard lumps from the fridge,

 

BTW, my GP told me recently that the latest research shows that Butter is actually better for you, and she has changed back to butter again. I was being cheeky when I suggested that next she would be telling me to go back to butter again, because I was thinking of doing the same after reading recent reports on the subject.Some older refrigerators actually had separate butter compartments which helped a little with butter spreadability.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Yes the great promise of high fidelity digital was to get that near perfect exact copy of the original tapes or other medium. Instead you mostly now get more digitally based effects and processing than was ever before possible in the analog world. Digital's ability to provide very, very high fidelity was turned into worse sound by far in most new recordings as they are released to the public.

 

I understand that is true for most mass market recordings these days. Fortunately, I am mainly a member of the tiny minority who listens primarily to classical music. Owning recordings from many eras in many formats, including LP, I can tell you that classical recordings today are way better than ever before, especially in Mch recorded in hi rez.

[Solstice380]

USAToday article on vinyl resurgence.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/nation-now/2016/05/31/boomers-youngsters-fuel-surging-vinyl-record-sales/85217362/

[PopPop]

Gunby is a bit overbearing about how special his appreciation is.

 

“There’s something very special about sitting and taking the time to put on what you think you want to hear, instead of just hitting a shuffle button and skipping through songs,”

 

I wonder what my evening would be like if I queued up 30 operas or symphonies and hit shuffle play.

[howlingfeedback]

BTW, my GP told me recently that the latest research shows that Butter is actually better for you, and she has changed back to butter again. I was being cheeky when I suggested that next she would be telling me to go back to butter again, because I was thinking of doing the same after reading recent reports on the subject.Some older refrigerators actually had separate butter compartments which helped a little with butter spreadability.

 

I like butter and I was using it as an example that not everthing new is for the best, butter and cheese should be left out of the fridge in dishes, as left in the fridge kills the flavour.

[gmgraves]

Gunby is a bit overbearing about how special his appreciation is.

 

“There’s something very special about sitting and taking the time to put on what you think you want to hear, instead of just hitting a shuffle button and skipping through songs,”

 

I wonder what my evening would be like if I queued up 30 operas or symphonies and hit shuffle play.

 

It's called vertigo.