Article: Weiss Engineering DAC202 Review

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi John - No and No :~)

[labjr]

<i><br />

"I don't think that's true in this case. I think it will be fewer than five years before you'll be able to get dramatic improvements for less money. For instance, vinyl can still provide a better experience than 192/24. So it's reasonable to expect we'll increase sampling rate and depth over time."<br />

</i><br />

<br />

I think we are already getting alot for the money with Metric Halo. According to Barry Diament the ULN-8 sounds like the Microphone feed. I haven't heard anyone say this about vinyl or analog. So I'd say digital is pretty good now. <br />

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The place where vinyl beats Red Book CD is in low level detail. Though this is a very important advantage, I think high resolution digital is very good and with some equipment may actually exceed the performance of analog. <br />

<br />

Seems like it took a long time for digital to get as good as it has (most of my adult life). Hopefully, Metric Halo's next product will have 8x sampling rates or other technology which creates a greater contrast with analog.

[KDinsmore]

I'll wait. Despite my audiophile label/status I still think these DAC's are too pricey. Before I'd spend on the Weiss I'd be heading to DCS land instead. Better yet I'm going to hold off a bit until I hear about the Arcam. $500 and Ansync USB. I just know someone can produce this stuff for this dollar amount.<br />

<br />

K

[Afveep]

If only Metric Halo would make a 2 channel 24/192 Firewire DAC. No special features (mic pre's, A-D, EQ, etc.)- just a kick-ass Firewire DAC for playback. They should be able to produce it a price even better than the LIO-8 and blow the pants off everything else out there. Barry??<br />

<br />

The Weiss products are really great in many ways, but it sounds like we all seem to think that their price point seems out of line.

[gcorley]

I second the call for a great 2 channel 24/192 firewire DAC with NO bells or whistles. No display, no volume control, no extra inputs or outputs ... Just great, hassle-free sound!

[labjr]

I'm not afraid to say, I think Weiss is overpriced.<br />

<br />

I'm curious about the Arcam also. I read somewhere that they license the asynch technology from DCS. Not that the asynch transfer is the whole DAC but it's good to know the transfer won't be the weak link in the product. Anyone know if the DAC will actually do 4X sampling rates. The little bit of literature I found doesn't say. <br />

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Yeah, it would be be cool if MH produced a great 2 channel product designed with audiophiles in mind, but I wouldn't hold your breath for that since they make products for the pro market.<br />

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The good thing about digital is that it is only going to get better.<br />

<br />

[FranklinLG]

At the end of the day, I'm all for having great sound. But at this stage of the game, for a individual DAC, I just can't see plunging down the money required for the Weiss, MH Lio8, Naim, etc. I have to say that for me, I'm going to have to stick with the items in the 1-2K range. For the price of the Weiss, and others out there like it, I'd prefer to have a full blown pre-pro, like the Classe or an ADA Cinema or Suite HD. The benefits of something like that far outweigh this for me at this stage. I HAVE to (or choose to) believe that the price of spectacular DAC's will come down in years to come. But until the source media is full blown, I, respectfully, can't see splurging like this. Having said that, I think it's fair to say that if this was a singular passion, I would pull the trigger immediately. However, I have vinyl and thoroughly enjoy my home theater system for new blu ray concerts and movies. <br />

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Just my 2 cents.<br />

<br />

Jonathan<br />

<br />

PS Chris, any comment on just how close the Weiss brings CD's, ripped or disc'd, to vinyl? Also, what are your thoughts on the Weiss' pairing with the Tube's. How significant was and or is that to its success?

[barrows]

The Weiss 202 is expensive, but so far, reports are that it offers a lot of sonic performance for the price. Consider that the most affordable decent preamps are at least $2K, and most are more like >$4K, and the price of the 202 seems a little more reasonable. Then add the fact that it handles all sample rates in native resolution via an asyncronous Firewire interface, and compare with, say the dCS Debussy: at $10K, the Debussy only handles USB audio at up to 24/96. Then consider that the Weiss also offers a built in, good quality, headphone amp, and does not require an additional component to interface with a computer to produce its best performance (unlike a BADA, for instance). A good stand alone headphone amp is going to cost $600 to $1K or more.<br />

Now consider that the Weiss is designed, engineered, and built in Switzerland-the cost of living and the cost of doing business in Switzerland is quite high-and the quality of Swiss products is world renowned for good reason.<br />

Considering all of the above, I believe the Weiss 202 offers good value for those audiophiles who can afford a source product in this price range, this does not mean it is for everyone, as much as I would like to own one it is very unlikely that I could afford it.<br />

For a bargain DAC I think folks should give a listen to the Wyred 4 Sound DAC2, I have not heard it yet, but I suspect that it will offer the best sound for a USB DAC under $2K, and they claim it has an asyncronous interface that will handle all resolutions.<br />

No one DAC is going to satisfy the needs of every audiophile, but I believe there will be a lot of happy Weiss customers, who will be enjoying the performance and features of the DAC 202.

[Audio_newb]

Hey Chris, any extended listening through the headphone out? When compared to line out to a headphone amp?<br />

<br />

Also, I'm going to agree with an above poster that the design could use some work. It still looks to me on the utilitarian side (like a piece of pro gear) which is not all that surprising. I would like to see a shot of it with the display in action, it looks so big and dopey sitting there with nothing on it.<br />

<br />

As for price I think that's a tough call. I certainly can't afford it, but then I can say the same thing about Meitner, DCS, or most of the other companies in this business. Honestly, I think we are lucky that computer audiophile products come as much from the heritage of commodity priced computing as they do from boutique audio. And I imagine there will always be a home for a range of price points. And for that reason I'll be looking forward to Wyred4sound and HRT reviews hopefully to come.

[labjr]

Jonathan,<br />

<br />

CD's will never be as good as vinyl. At least until they do high resolution remasters. But then they won't be on redbook CDs anymore.<br />

<br />

<br />

Barrows,<br />

<br />

The brands you compared it to are overpriced too. The Weiss Minerva was overpriced compared to their own identical DAC2. I'd bet Weiss won't make the mistake of offering a product identical to the 202 in their pro line for nearly half the price. Virtually all the "audiophile" brands are overpriced and overhyped.

[jhbpa]

I own a QB-9, Benchmark DAC 1, Grace 902 and a Bel Canto 3.5vb.<br />

<br />

I've owned a Weiss DAC2, Ayre CX 5e and many Wadia products.<br />

<br />

I've chased the high end BS for 40 years and still keep a state of the art vinyl play back system in the rig.<br />

<br />

Current power amp is BAT 75 SE, current preamp BAT 52SE<br />

<br />

Speakers Audio Physic Virgo's and Avalon Eidolon's<br />

<br />

Never see any Bel Canto reviews here.<br />

<br />

Always see lots of Weiss love.<br />

<br />

Never see any Bel Canto advertising here.<br />

<br />

See Weiss ads plastered all over the site and constant feedback from Daniel.<br />

<br />

Coincidence?

[barrows]

I am sorry, but this statement is just plain wrong:<br />

<br />

"The brands you compared it to are overpriced too. The Weiss Minerva was overpriced compared to their own identical DAC2. I'd bet Weiss won't make the mistake of offering a product identical to the 202 in their pro line for nearly half the price. Virtually all the "audiophile" brands are overpriced and overhyped."<br />

<br />

If this statement was correct I would expect the owners of the comapnies making these products, and the dealers which sell them, to be laughing all the way to the bank-but that is not the case. What exactly is your level of expertise that makes you an authority on pricing? Do you feel a Porsche Carrera GT is overpriced, or a Ferrari?<br />

<br />

"audiophile" (your quotes) brands are not, in most cases overpriced. These products are low volume production items, and as such the pricing reflects the higher margins necessary for a company making a low volume product to stay in business.<br />

I am not sure what your agenda is with making inflammatory and incorrect statements such as this, but the insinuation that somehow "audiophile" (your quotes) companies such as Weiss are overcharging for their products is incorrect.

[tresaino]

Nice job Chris, thanks. However, hope you allow a few observations:<br />

<br />

"There’s little doubt that computer based audio is the future of high end playback." As editor would have suggested 'one of the' futures.<br />

<br />

"I unequivocally state Weiss Engineering has handily surpassed the competition and all previous Weiss DACs in its class." I suppose the 'its' means that the Weiss Medea/DAC1 remains in another, higher, class. I once had both the Medea and Minerva here for comparison from a friend, so we opened them up to see internal componentry: the differences were huge, the Medea full of transistors and circuitry, the Minerva a dwarf in comparison and full of integrated parts and opamps. The sound of both was very good, but the older Medea was no doubt better in terms of soundstage and palpability.<br />

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"I had no problems during the review period inserting and removing all types of cables." Neither do I with the DAC2. In fact, connectivity on both units is essentially the same.<br />

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I also have no problems whatsoever with the fit'n'finish of the DAC2. Agree with those who pointed out that for people using other sources a good separate preamp will stay in the chain, therefore no need for extra volume control feature. Also agree that with those who commented on the need for yet another headphone socket.<br />

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"the Weiss DAC202 offers a critically and consumer acclaimed asynchronous FireWire interface. The DAC is also capable of sending word clock out to an audio card in an asynchronous-like fashion. Either way the Weiss DAC202 retains the critical role of master clock." The review would have benefitted from a more thorough comparison with previous or current Weiss DACs in this particular domain. <br />

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"The third feature that formerly put the Alpha DAC over the top is a simple sample rate display." I agree with a previous post, you could have at least mentioned that this can be added to many of the older Weiss DACs. My DAC2 has it now, sincere thanks to Daniel Weiss for having offered this extra little feature to older customers, for free.<br />

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"Two additional differences between the Minerva and the DAC202 are the newly designed analog output stages and newly designed D to A converter." This is probably the heart of the matter for people considering to move up from older Weiss DACs. The proof will be in the sound. The rest is cosmetics.

[Andrew S.]

I thought it read like one great long advert on behalf of Weiss.<br />

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Doesn't have much credit with me. <br />

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[matthias]

Roberto,<br />

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there are some reports from the Far East that the DAC202 is superior to the Medea. <br />

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But in the future Daniel will certainly do some work on the Medea and it will stay on top of the range.<br />

<br />

matthias

[tresaino]

Just saw my previous post had a quote from the sample rate display but commented on the bit transparency feature, hope people understood the comments were about bit transparency. The DAC2 does in any case show sample rates, although not in a display (I couldn't care less how it is done).<br />

<br />

Andrew someone should ask John Atkinson to hire Chris for Stereophile, this would alleviate at least some of the suspicions that people might have when reading online reviews. See JA's latest editorial on the benefits of printed stuff versus online stuff discussed in forums - I thought JA was way over the top with his arrogant, or perhaps defensive, remarks about online crap, however some - not all - of what he said there was correct. <br />

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Matthias the Asian crowd may be right, only our ears would tell. I continue to consider a 10 years old and 'only' 24/96 capable Medea one of best DACs out there.

[The Computer Audiophile]

<i>"Never see any Bel Canto reviews here.<br />

<br />

Always see lots of Weiss love.<br />

<br />

Never see any Bel Canto advertising here.<br />

<br />

See Weiss ads plastered all over the site and constant feedback from Daniel.<br />

<br />

Coincidence?"</i>"<br />

<br />

<br />

jhbpa - Please browse the site a bit more and you'll be happy to find a Bel Canto review. Now that I've reviewed the DAC202 there are two Weiss reviews and one Bel Canto review. I'm working on a review of the DAC 1.5 as well. There is only one Weiss ad and it's on the right side of the site. Daniel has only provided feedback on the forum, mainly to direct user questions, ten times in the last six months. <br />

<br />

The last review I published from an advertiser was on January 26, 2010.<br />

<br />

[The Computer Audiophile]

<i>"reads like advertising copy<br />

I thought it read like one great long advert on behalf of Weiss.<br />

Doesn't have much credit with me."</i><br />

<br />

<br />

<br />

Andrew S. - What are you looking for in a review? Can you provide any example of reviews that do have credit with you? Also, what about this review makes it read like advertising copy as opposed to a review?

[FranklinLG]

There is NOTHING wrong with this review. I just question how serious we need to be about spending our money on ANY dac that costs more than $3,000 or even $2,000. I just don't think we're there with the material. So I can't see myself being on the bleeding edge. I'll happily spend $1-2,000 for a good DAC that gets me through the next few years. But for now, I can't see spending this kind of loot. Plus, I fully expect prices to drop. Can't wait for some of the other products to trickle further down...<br />

<br />

And let's be fair to Chris. Advertising is what it is. But it's unfair to jump on him as though he has compromised his integrity about this product. FWIW, he's not the only one that has reviewed the 202 with such high praise. It is likely an incredible product, just freakin' expensive. Daniel needs to deliver something like it for about 1/4 the price!

[Audio_ELF]

<em> he's not the only one that has reviewed the 202 with such high praise. It is likely an incredible product, just freakin' expensive. Daniel needs to deliver something like it for about 1/4 the price!</em><br />

Typically by spending 1/4 of the price; you'll get 3/4 of the performance. <br />

<br />

As for the cost, there's a lot of audio products a lot more expensive which people feel are worth the cost: compared with a dCS Scarletti stack (DAC, Upsampler and Clock) it's a bargain - and many people consider that is worth buying (with suitable other kit). <br />

<br />

Eloise

[firedog]

Again, it all depends on how much money you have. $5000 is a lot to me, it might not be to you.<br />

<br />

It also depends on your system. I have an audiophile level system, but it certainly isn't what audiophiles would call "reference" quality.<br />

<br />

I think these super hi-end components are "worth it" if you pair them with suitable equipment. I'd bet the Weiss would make an improvement to my system, but I'm not sure it would justify the premium price in my system. I'd probably be better off at this point putting the same money into even better speakers than the ones I have now. Probably more bang for the buck for me.

[Lars]

A good review of a high end DAC. Chris stated that he preferred the Weiss over his previous favorite the Berkeley. Both companies advertise here. What more do you want from him?<br />

<br />

Chris reviews a wide range of products in terms of price. He's doing a great job in my opinion.

[rjplummer]

I would guess fewer than one person in one hundred could hear the difference between this DAC and a great one in the $1500 range. And those people who could, would only hear the difference on a fraction of their library (certainly of their pop music library). It's probably the same between a $1500 and a $400 DAC.<br />

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When you buy audiophile equipment, you're striving to hear music as close to what the performer created as possible. And based upon your budget, you calculate your own point of diminishing returns

[Richard Dale]

<p>rjplummer: <i>"..I would guess fewer than one person in one hundred could hear the difference between this DAC and a great one in the $1500 range.."</i></p><br />

<br />

<p>I think the more expensive and better you equipment is the easier it is to hear differences. If 100 people all owned Wilsons/Krells etc and were familiar with their system's sound, I'm pretty sure a large proportion would be able to hear the difference between a $1500 DAC and a $6000 one. Additionally at that level you are looking for a sound you like, and I'm sure the presentation of a dCS DAC is different from the Weiss and it might come down to personal preference.</p><br />

<br />

<p>On the other hand if the 100 people had budget systems and were trying to compare two budget DACs (or one budget and one slightly more up market), I would bet that it would be much harder for them to form a preference. To me budget HiFi components sound much more similar to each other that exotic components do. The more you spend the larger the differences are, and the easier it becomes to tell components apart. Expensive components don't 'approach perfection' by all sounding similar. In fact, the exact reverse often happens. Maybe more so with speakers or amplifiers, than DACs.</p>

[KDinsmore]

$6,400 for a DAC and preamp isn't a killer amount(we still haven't heard from Antelope which can do all this too suposedly at about 1/3 the cost). Leaping now for a computer DAC at this price. No. You still need a computer that's up-to-date + software and some are calling for $800 Amarrra?!? Plus the guys I spoke with called for SSD in the computer plus a big drive to store. If you include the Amarra then you are talking another $2500. That brings you to $9,000....oops a remote too...another $200 for an iTouch or similar. Last add in all your time to sort it out and rip everything. That is Sooloos/Meridian territory and they to me have it together. That would also buy one nice optical player and preamp. I do believe great computer based systems will be the standard but it is going to take time. We here are early adopters and want it all now. I think we just need to be patient. Yes you can have a system now. The way this is all evolving I would expect an easy to use DAC within the next year that is inexpensive. To me that is my goal: a great DAC using my computer system without having to buy a Sooloos.<br />

<br />

K