Article: Weiss Engineering DAC202 Review

[Mr.C]

Nice Review, it sounds like a leap forward to displace the likes of the Alpha Dac.

[Nyal Mellor]

Nice review, well written, good job!<br />

<br />

A lot of your comparison with the Minerva/DAC2 is based on the earlier model without the added functionality of the new updates (i.e. digital volume control, the 4 way switch for setting ouput level on the back, the bit perfect test in the latest firmware update). Apart from the obvious remote control, what would you say the sound quality differences are between the two, given the 3k difference between the DAC2 and 202?

[Forehaven]

Chris, will that firewire pci card work on my older pci G5? <br />

<br />

The Weiss DAC202 sounds like a wonderful piece. $8 for a high quality sound output vs. $700 for the Lynx AES card,( along with a Berkeley combo I was going for.) And the Weiss isn't that much more. (Got to hear the Berkeley dac about 2 wks ago and was much impressed, so to here this beats it, is well, almost unbelievable )<br />

<br />

But anyway, just curious about that card with a pci G5. <br />

<br />

Great review Chris too.

[Audio_ELF]

Chris said... <em>"Comparing the soundstage of the Alpha to that of the DAC202 was almost painful for me. The Alpha has been my old faithful for a couple years. It’s always been an overachiever. After listening to the DAC202 for long enough it was time to face the music. The DAC202 has a much more cohesive soundstage than the Alpha and has lost any overly narrow characteristics present in the Minerva. Comparing recording after recording revealed the same results. The appropriately sized and high cohesivity of the DAC202’s soundstage and its superior imaging schooled the Alpha DAC."</em><br />

<br />

So has the DAC202 knocked the Alpha off it's spot as your "reference" DAC? How does it compare to the dCS stack you tested previously?<br />

<br />

Eloise

[peeradonn]

Dear Chris,<br />

<br />

Great Review! thanks for your comment about the DAC202<br />

<br />

I got mine already and agreed to all of your comment.<br />

<br />

Cheers!<br />

<br />

Kim

[Tipper]

Interesting review and product.<br />

Having the DAC report accurately the received bitrate and frequency is a great feature and something all high end DACs should be looking to have as a feature.<br />

I see they're still offering that terrible RCA output connection option <br />

Independent clock sync ability also seems a smart idea.<br />

I was thinking about the price; way out of my league unfortunately but not unreasonably priced given, I assume, the headphone stage matches the overall performance. One could easily spend £3500 ($5250) on a top range CD player and a further £500 on a decent headphone amp.<br />

I just wondered about being able to hear a 1db difference, especially in the 300Hz to 3Khz range (?)<br />

[matthias]

Dear Chris,<br />

<br />

thank you for your great review.<br />

<br />

I would like to give some informations from Asia Weiss concerning firewire cables for the 202:<br />

<br />

http://www.asiaweiss.com/main/?p=1649<br />

<br />

Kind regards<br />

<br />

matthias

[FranklinLG]

Chris,<br />

<br />

I appreciate the insight you've provided, as your reviews frequently buck the stereotypical fluff and stuff in so many rags, I mean mags... <br />

<br />

And your input into the DAC202 certainly gives me pause about some upcoming purchases. But, candidly, I have to wonder if there is more shaking out to come. As it stands, the vast majority of music that might appeal to me is either (currently) only available via CD or vinyl. I can't help but to wonder how long before music mastered over the past 20 or so years to CD will get redone at higher sampling and bit rates. But until it does, then aren't we still limited to the inherent issues within the CD? Does the DAC202 really draw out that perceivable missing mid-range? Does it find the missing element to CD that was patently obvious to a vinyl lover? Does it eliminate or significantly reduce the compressed sound? These are, arguably, my biggest complaints about digital today. I'm longing for the fullness that comes with the introduction of vinyl and tubes. <br />

<br />

Having said that, I'm not unmindful of your comments about endless listening. I just wonder if at the end of the day this product is not ahead of its time. It's almost like buying a plasma tv back in 2002. Do you go for HD or ED. Since at the time HD was still up in the air, and there was not a lot of content, I chose ED, and saved a bunch of money. Good thing, too. 1080p wasn't even on the scene for another 3 years, or so. And blu-ray is only now finding its stride. I have since upgraded to a beautiful 1080p, and will similarly sit tight while 3d works its kinks out. The point being is that it still seems to me that we're all waiting for the source material to become more available. It is telling, though, that remasters of classics, like Analogue Productions' Nat King Cole series are being remastered by Steve Hoffman to vinyl and SACD. Again, time will tell, but I'd be curious if you feel that this product REALLY makes a difference for the 90%, or so, of us that have the vast majority of the digital music in either CD or ripped lossless CD form. Or are we a few years away.<br />

<br />

Jonathan<br />

<br />

PS This is NOT intended to take anything away from this DAC by Weiss. It sounds AMAZING. And at the end of the day, I may actually buy it. Or I may chose something that's a little lighter on the budget and wait for this field to settled down more. I would just welcome some input on whether we're going to be getting ahead of ourselves, like we might if we bought a hydrogen fueled car. Just my 2 cents!

[Kristian Hansen]

Jonathan i think you have a point there. My own thoughts about this subject is the same as your's. At this point i'm in the middle of testing Amarra and you don't get all the benifits of different high-end DAC's playing digital music with 44.1/16 material as if you play high-res files, now i am from Denmark and we don't have any access to high-res download in Europe legally!:-) <br />

Because of that i will hold my horses regarding exspensive players.<br />

I'm sure that we within some years will see more and more ways of playing hi-res files and hopefully more artist will go the same way..<br />

<br />

There is also some technical difs and hard work to go complete digital<br />

but that's the way being pioneers.<br />

<br />

NB: Thanks to Chris for a always deep and investigated review<br />

<br />

Kristian from<br />

Copenhagen/DK<br />

[FranklinLG]

Kristian,<br />

<br />

Exactly, and thanks for getting my point (and not flaming me here). I'm not trying to be heretical.<br />

<br />

But I do think all of us who have invested in music servers, initial equipment, and the like, are still on the frontier of this. Take, for example, those of us who have used Apple's Apple TV. With the new Mac Mini, that is now going to go by the wayside. And what of the transfer of music via HDMI cables? PS Audio uses a variant to separate the signal out in its newer products. I think it is called i2s2 or something like that. <br />

<br />

It's really freaky to me how similar this all seems to HD and HDTV. Most of us have our CD collections, just like many have their DVD collections. Now, nearly 10 years later, or so, manufacturers are looking at moving more and more material to Blu-ray. Old classics are getting restored into Blu-Ray, and there is so much more HD content everywhere you turn. Also, TV's are now HDMI standard, and HD is common place. Yet the codec for HDMI is still a mess. And then there is the introduction of 3D.<br />

<br />

Still, for me, that seems more settled. Yet in the music field, we're still dealing with 16 bit, 24 bit, and possibly 32 bit. Sampling rates run the gambit, too. Yet most of the content out there is 16 bit, 44.1. Hz. I can't help but to wonder when we will start to see releases by organizations like Mobile Fidelity (www.Mofi.com) releasing material in a higher bit-sampling rate or in digital file format with "ultra high resolution" that blows this all out of the water. Their vinyl is incredible, as are their CD and SACD's. <br />

<br />

So, as good as the Weiss DAC is, I have to ask, is it worth being out there on what I believe is still the frontier with this product, purchasing what might, arguably, be the current 720p of HD for audio? Clearly, it is vastly superior to 480p DVD, but there's room for improvement and the source material is still lacking. So I do wonder if the entry cost into this level may not yet justify the substantial cost differential in my book from products out there that are at a fraction of the cost. And by fraction, I mean the solid products in the $1-2K range.<br />

<br />

Then again, what do I know, I have Rega P9 turn table... And I think vinyl rocks. You know, FWIW, ask yourself this, why did Pearl Jam release their latest album on vinyl! Or why is Steve Hoffman remastering so much on vinyl (and yes I know, SACD, too). I'd submit that it's because digital is not quite there yet. But give it time!

[Lars]

Thanks for a well written review Chris.

[4est]

There truly is a big difference in redbook performance, but you cannot shine a turd. Redbook has lower resolution than vinyl, and will probably never be as good due to that. That doesn't mean that one shouldn't look to get the best of it. A lot of modern vinyl starts life digitally. One needs to discover for themselves whether higher res digital converted into vinyl and played back is better than a digital down conversion to redbook played on a state of the art DAC. My loose observations are to play it in the medium it was recorded in the first place. It gets fuzzy when one looks at remastered reissues.

[Purite Audio]

Lower resolution than redbook! How are you measuring that, dynamic range, distortion?<br />

Keith.

[Matias]

Great DAC. If it only costed 1/3 of what they charge...

[4est]

...and yet I stand by my opinion- and it is just that. Are you saying that you think/know that 16/44 has as much or more information in it than vinyl does in a groove? If I understand the math, at 14-15 k there are only three points to describe the wave form, the rest is shaped. Please educate me if I am wrong<br />

<br />

Is there not a push towards hi resolution digital? Why would that be if redbook sufficed? I am not attempting to put down digital, nor promote vinyl. Even the name "compact disc" speaks of compromise. Why is it then that the picture you associate with your account is that of a turntable and not a transport? MY Weiss DAC2 was a big step toward the organic-ness of vinyl and better at some things, but it cannot draw me into the music in the same manner as a good vinyl rig. Maybe his DAC202 does? <br />

<br />

Really that is the makings of another thread. The gist of my post was to not make digital analog or vice versa, but to use both when appropriate.<br />

<br />

My question to you Keith, is how does the DAC202 compare to MH LIO/ULN 8 (Sonic Studio 4) as a stand alone DAC? I value your opinion as you seem to be thoughtful and reasonable, but also realize that you have a business to run.

[Kristian Hansen]

And talking about vinyl, there is no doubt in my mind that vinyl is far beyond digital it dosen't work in 0 and 1's and has a greater bandwith so my way of getting Hi-res files in Denmark is to play my vinyls in to computer thru riaa with usb etc..<br />

But as a hi-fi importer i am allways in the seek of new ways to do things better, that's why Computeraudiophile is a good place to hang around. And digital music as files on servers/mediaplayers and so on is the future no one uses CD's in 10-15 years or less, the thing has not evolved since birth in "82-83" still compressed and bad jitter, that what makes Hi-res audio interresting. <br />

What we need is just a more user friendly/interactive way of getting our music into the system in those 192/64 and i don't think Steve Jobs is planing on that at the moment, they all thinking about new player gadget and gismos instead of making the music sound better...YEAH it's getting religious now, but my point is that we need to get more music available in Hi-res and for the industry it's all about money and copyright so it could be a long one..but of course i'll be ready.<br />

Sorry for spelling mistakes i'm not a native:-)<br />

<br />

<br />

Best regards<br />

<br />

Kristian<br />

Copenhagen/DK

[rjplummer]

In the past, you've defended the cost of audiophile equipment by computing the cost per year, saying that one can use great equipment for literally decades.<br />

<br />

I don't think that's true in this case. I think it will be fewer than five years before you'll be able to get dramatic improvements for less money. For instance, vinyl can still provide a better experience than 192/24. So it's reasonable to expect we'll increase sampling rate and depth over time.<br />

<br />

So this may be a great DAC, but it's only for those who don't mind spending a lot and replacing as frequently as they replace cars.<br />

<br />

[Purite Audio]

4est Hi, I am not sure you can measure resolution, but CD has much greater dynamic range, better channel seperation less distortion, etc etc, anyhoo back to the thread,<br />

VB Keith.

[4est]

I agree with those assessments, but what about comparing MH/SS with the DAC202 as DACs? Contrary to what one might think from my last post, I LOVE my Weiss DAC2. It is the first digital that I really thought gave analog a run for its money. The MH 8s/SS 4 or the DAC202 appear to be the kingpins in computer audio, at least on the firewire front. One of which is likely to be my next digital purchase. You are one of the few, that I am aware of, that has both. Do tell!

[4est]

Yours may not be a fair assessment. With all do respect, I have at least double into my vinyl rig vs digital if you tally the parts, including the phono section that you will not need with most top end DACs. Furthermore, the phono cartridge is expendable with a life of say 1000-2000 hrs. I'd have to think that in the aforementioned 5 year period you would use up at least one, if not two cartidges. Rhetorically, what are you using and what is it's value? Do you re tip, or replace etc...<br />

<br />

I will agree that digital is still evolving, whereas analog is pretty mature.

[efstro]

Chris,<br />

<br />

Nice detailed review as we expect.<br />

<br />

I have to say the value proposition of the Weiss DAC 202 is not complelling for me personally given the price and the industrial design relative to other alternatives for the discriminating audiophile.<br />

<br />

Let me be frank here; the Weiss DAC 202 is butt ugly (I say this in the most respectfully way possible) and looks like a recording engineer designed the outside as well as the insides. <br />

<br />

Given your review it appears that serious attention was paid to the technical details to leap-frog the Alpha DAC. However, No attention was paid to the industrial design. Given the $64XX price tag the value proposition has to be questioned on looks alone.<br />

<br />

As an aerospace engineer the technical aspects are complelling, but as an audiophile the looks and industrial design are a real turn-off. I would not consider putting this unit in my living room unless I could cover it up with a lot of lipstick. Lets face it audiophiles are picky, detail people (ok, anal is the other word).<br />

<br />

At $6400.00 for a DAC (volume control) only, I would strongly consider the Classe SSP-800 ( http://www.classeaudio.com/delta/detail-ssp-800.htm) which has a re-clocking DAC, pre / processor, ....etc as a better alternative and a nice living room worthy industrial design for $7K. <br />

<br />

If Weiss Engineering target customer is the audiophile (Anal and otherwise) they should consult a industrial designer for a visually and Aesthetically pleasing facelift. I would advise the following for starters:<br />

<br />

1. Make it audio component or rack size (Like the Alpha DAC, Perfect Wave DAC....Classe SSP-800....etc.)<br />

2. Consider another color....like black or silver<br />

3. Think living room component design. at $6k, I want something that I can be proud to look at and show off to friends and to help justify the price. For this price I expect the complete package...nothing missing.<br />

<br />

In my opinion it appears Weiss has provided a technically great design with a lack luster look. It's simply not enough to have the best technical design (for the moment). I would suggest that the value proposition and therefore sales would improve with a reconstructive make-over. <br />

<br />

<br />

Ed

[JeffH]

Chris,<br />

<br />

<cite>90% of the files were encoded in FLAC...</cite><br />

<br />

Are you listening to the files as FLAC? I thought you only used FLAC to archive and used uncompressed AIFF or WAV for listening?<br />

<br />

<cite>...and copied to memory before playback in J River Media Center.</cite><br />

<br />

How do you do this?<br />

<br />

Jeff

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Jeff - Very good question. In this job I have to try everything as they say. I wish I could only use one file format, one operating system, one playback application, one DAC, etc... You get the idea. I still use uncompressed files and recommend uncompressed files. Lately I've been listening to a ton of FLAC encoded files as part of some research I'm doing. It's entirely possible that I'll use 90% WAV during the next review. <br />

<br />

In the J River Audio settings there is a check box to Play files from memory instead of disk (not zone-specific). Check the box and you're good.

[Forehaven]

I too would be interested in the views of people who have had a chance to listen to both the DAC2 and SS Model2/MH8. <br />

<br />

[jhbpa]

Chris:<br />

<br />

Were the Ayre AX-7e and McIntosh MC275 the only power amps used in the review?<br />

<br />

Was a substantial part of the review conducted in an environment where both media storage and data transmission shared firewire?<br />

<br />

These are just yes or no questions and imply no expression of an opinion.<br />

<br />

Thanks,<br />

<br />

John