Article: Weiss Engineering DAC202 Review

[weiss2496]

<cite>I for one would like to see some test measurements to supplement the listening tests.</cite><br />

<br />

I have put up some graphs here:<br />

http://www.weiss-highend.ch/dac202/documents/Weiss-DAC202-measurements.pdf<br />

<br />

Daniel<br />

[artk]

Thank's for the posting real testing results. Just for fun, I decided to look at the same testing for the $1,700 benchmark. Most are the same, some of the Benchmark specs are better.<br />

<br />

<br />

http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/manuals/ADC1_USB_Manual_Rev_C.pdf<br />

[The Computer Audiophile]

Art - Can you provide a PDF with measurements of the DAC instead of the ADC? Also, hopefully the measurements will the of the same type that Daniel provided.

[artk]

The Weiss is clearly better on crosstalk at 1k, but the same at 20k. Then again, most dogs can't hear down -125 db, so the Wiess’s -160 isn't an audible difference. Most of the other measurements appear the same or better. The Benchmark shows measurably lower distortion below about -5 db, but higher above that. All in all, pretty much the same. <br />

<br />

<br />

http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/manuals/DAC1-USB-Manual-RevG.pdf<br />

<br />

[gmgraves]

Like a lot of engineering solutions, in electronics there are numerous paths to the same result. I'm guessing here, but knowing the long-term relationship between Pacific Microsonics, Keith O. Johnson, and John Curl, I'd say that chances are good that Curl had a big hand in designing the Model 2.<br />

<br />

While 10-15 years ago, I would have said that discrete analog stages WERE better than those made with op-amps, I don't think that's true any more. There are op-amps on the market today (like the National Semiconductor PME49710 and related designs) which can hold their own with respect to noise, distortion, gain bandwidth, etc, to any analog stage. Also, there is no reason to believe that analog power supplies are any better than a properly designed switching supply. As long as the voltage is correct, with enough current to do the job and there is no spurious switching noises on that voltage, switching supplies are just fine. It's sort of like saying that a laser printer is better than a ink jet. They are both printers, but represent a different way of achieving the same goal. <br />

<br />

Frankly I don't know what the PM Model 2 has that would make it STILL be better than a more modern design but I did find the user's manual at <br />

<br />

http://connect.euphonix.com/documents/model_two_op_man_301.pdf<br />

<br />

It turns out that this puppy is both an A/D and a D/A. It WILL do 24/192 and it also contains an HDCD encoder/decoder. While the manual has SOME specs in it, it doesn't give enough to get an insight into what makes it so good. It is not 15-years old as someone suggested though. The manual hails from January of 2002. There is no schematic or hardware block diagram in the manual that I could find. <br />

<br />

I wonder if RR uses these to encode their HDTracks (and Computer Audiophile) uploads and their HRx series of recordings?<br />

<br />

Interesting.<br />

<br />

<br />

[woodcans]

As a former engineer, with a B.S. in engineering and as an audiophile, with ears on many dacs, including Benchmark DAC1, Berkeley Alpha, Weiss DAC2 and many others, I propose that if the DAC1 measurements are the same as the 202, or any other dac, for that matter, then we are measuring the wrong things. Weiss' DAC2 is far and away better than Benchmark's offering, to my ears. And assuming Chris and others who have heard the 202 are correct, then Benchmark isn't even in the same league with the 202, no matter what any graph shows.

[Part-Time Audiophile]

@woodcans: Well said. "What to measure?" is a very interesting question, indeed. Good point.<br />

<br />

@all:<br />

<br />

But you guys are killing me. Do I <i>need</i> to buy this DAC? Is this DAC "better" than an Alpha (when used with something other than a Lynx), and if so, are we talking "head and shoulders" or "by a hair"? <br />

<br />

Bringing the superlatives down to a strict comparison b/w the two (or b/w it and any other DAC), I'd be real curious if we can come up with some verbal (purely qualitative, mind!) metric to help give me some indication as to the degree of perceived improvements? Or would that not help? Especially if if the comparison is just between two pieces of gear, one familiar and one new?<br />

<br />

1. I have no idea. Better ears are needed, b/c I can't tell 'em apart.<br />

2. Tough call, but I believe <i>x</i>* is a hair better wrt <i>y</i>.<br />

3. It might be close, but I believe <i>x</i> is better wrt to <i>y</i>. <br />

4. It's not close; even casual listeners would prefer <i>x</i>.<br />

5. It's blindingly obvious, like night and day!<br />

<br />

*Where <i>x</i> is the product in question and <i>y</i> is some audiophile characteristic like sound stage, imaging, overall tone, clarity, dynamics, bass, treble, mid range, &c.

[The Computer Audiophile]

<I>" I'm guessing here, but knowing the long-term relationship between Pacific Microsonics, Keith O. Johnson, and John Curl, I'd say that chances are good that Curl had a big hand in designing the Model 2."</I><br />

<br />

<br />

Hi George - I just talked to one of the founders of Pacific Microsonics. Your guess is absolutely incorrect. John Curl had nothing to do with the PM Model One or Two.

[barrows]

Artk, I must say I really do not understand why you continue to post here. Apparently you have nothing to learn, as you know everything, and, alternatively, you have nothing to offer?<br />

I have heard the Benchmark products, they sound nothing like the Weiss converters I have heard. The sound from the Benchmark products is not something I would ever want to listen to, I like products that have good measurements and that sound good, but if it works for you, great!<br />

George: re IC opamps/switching supplies-I have yet to hear an IC opamp based gain stage that can compete with a really well designed discrete stage, but I do agree that IC opamps have come a long way in the last ten years, and I applaud National Semi for actually building a dedicated, high end, listening room, and actually listen testing their new designs. If the chip designers ever figure out how to reduce the amount of feedback necessary in their designs, they may yet produce a chip that delivers ultimate sonic performance.<br />

As for switching supplies, I agree that it is possible to produce high end power supplies using switching technology, but this is not a simple matter, and requires a lot of attention to details (it is much easier to build a good, low noise, low output impedance linear supply). The switching supplies used with the pro converters I was referring to are off the shelf cheapo supplies, not custom built, well implemented custom supplies like those designed by companies like Chord and Linn for use in their products, and as such they are basically little RFI broadcasters that pollute the whole audio system with HF noise.

[barrows]

"Bringing the superlatives down to a strict comparison b/w the two (or b/w it and any other DAC), I'd be real curious if we can come up with some verbal (purely qualitative, mind!) metric to help give me some indication as to the degree of perceived improvements? Or would that not help? Especially if if the comparison is just between two pieces of gear, one familiar and one new?"<br />

<br />

While I like the thought here, I do not think this idea is realistic for so many reasons (different systems, different ears, different preferences, etc.). A review, or many reviews, are just the first step in component consideration. I think we have to decide what components we listen to, and only use reviews as a very vague guide to what we might consider to listen test.<br />

I do not expect reviewers to make decisions for me, only to point out how something sounds to them, in their system. Also, it is entirely unrealistic for reviewers to make comparisons between every product out there, as no reviewer has every product at hand, and relying on long term listening memory would do a disservice to consumers.

[Part-Time Audiophile]

No, no -- don't misunderstand me. I'm not looking for a new take on reviews in general (though that'd be a fine idea, but definitely a different topic for a different thread), I want specific info wrt the Weiss DAC202 as compared to my baby, the BADA w/ Legato. If there's anyone out there (Buehler?) able to make the comparison I'm looking for (or one similar enough) that can compare the 202 with my reference (with the full understanding that that rating is entirely subjective, blahblahblah), it could at least <i>help</i> me to locate the 202's place within The Pantheon without having to buy one, bring it in and test it myself. No question, I have to make my own decisions, do my own testing, my mileage may vary, &c &c &c. I'm just more than idly curious about this particular comparison, that's all.

[artk]

<i>Comment removed by editor.</i><br />

<br />

<i>Art please discuss your opinion that all DACs sound the same in a separate forum thread.</i>

[labjr]

<i> "The Metric Halo/ Amarra Model 5 has been my reference for the past year,the DAC 202 in significantly better , more dynamic, greater resolution , with an incredibly tangible image, it makes the MH seem confused and ragged in comparison.<br />

Keith."<br />

</i><br />

<br />

This sounds like a bit of an exaggeration. If every year, new equipment was head and shoulders above your last reference, it seems the sound would be so close to perfect in 2-3 years that you couldn't tell the difference from the real event.<br />

<br />

I find it hard to believe Metric Halo has been outdone by such a large margin.<br />

<br />

<br />

<br />

[cfmsp]

Larry,<br />

<br />

"I find it hard to believe Metric Halo has been outdone by such a large margin."<br />

<br />

Margin is likely the operative word, but not the 'margin' you're referring to.<br />

<br />

Imagine you're a dealer, selling Amarra DACs (made by Metric Halo) for $6495. [Note, that Sonic/Amarra started selling the OEM version of the '8 well before Metric Halo did.] <br />

<br />

Then MH announce their own version of the same DAC circuitry, complete with ADC & 8 Mic preamps for $6000, and later the same DAC circuitry with the ADCs, but without the Mic pres for only $3995. <br />

<br />

To compound this, Amarra subsequently lowered the price of the previously $6495 Model Four to $4k. I wonder what margins are like now for dealers selling these MH boxes after Sonic takes their (middleman) cut? ;0<br />

<br />

I also wonder how a salesperson justifies the cost difference between the nearly $7kUS Weiss and the $4k Metric Halo LIO-8 (which can be easily had for $3500 US). <br />

<br />

<br />

"This sounds like a bit of an exaggeration."<br />

<br />

Agreed, but (perhaps?) understandable given the scenario above.<br />

<br />

OTOH, there may be a more obvious explanation. Weiss' reputation is for silky, smooth sound - in other words, less ragged. I guess that's not a bad thing if that's what you want.<br />

<br />

<br />

Clay<br />

<br />

<br />

PS, BTW, Coops, BJ Buchalter asked me offline "who is this Coops fellow?" when you posted at AA that the ULN-8 originally cost $8000. He was NOT pleased that you are/were an Sonic/Amarra dealer and had posted incorrect information. As BJ confirmed, the ULN-8 has never cost more than $6000.<br />

<br />

PPS, Yes, I'm an avid fan of Metric Halo, so please take these comments with a grain of salt, or two.<br />

<br />

<br />

<br />

[labjr]

Hi Clay,<br />

<br />

I suspected profit margin could be a factor, but I didn't want to suggest there was any other motive for such statements other than it actually sounding better than the MH boxes. I figured I'd get slammed by the Weiss lovers.<br />

<br />

Not that Metric Halo can't be bested. But to say it's significantly better with greater resolution seems far-fetched. Digital is real good these days. For someone to outdo BJ Buchalter so handily seems rather unlikely.<br />

<br />

<br />

[barrows]

indeed:<br />

<br />

"This sounds like a bit of an exaggeration."<br />

<br />

"Agreed, but (perhaps?) understandable given the scenario above."<br />

<br />

Clay, I really think you would have to actually listen the Weiss 202 before having any kind of (reliable) opinion as to how it might sound vis a vis the MH ADC/DACs.<br />

As to your speculation about margins you might be correct, but it is pure speculation as far as I can tell...<br />

Maybe Coops is using hyperbole, or maybe he is calling it as he hears it, but I cannot comment having not compared the products in question.

[cfmsp]

Barrows,<br />

<br />

<br />

I'm simply pointing out the not inconsiderable motivation that a dealer might have for claiming that one DAC sounds significantly better than another, esp. when we all know that at these lofty heights, hyperbole is the order of the day and the differences are rather small indeed, in my experience.<br />

<br />

<br />

I personally give no credence to the listening opinions posted online of those (i.e. dealers) with such a motivation. Apparently, you disagree. I've got no issues with that, but it is certainly fair game for me to share my opinions as to a dealer's motivation. <br />

<br />

As I also noted, Coops previously made a misrepresentation about the ULN-8, so that further colors my view of his opinions. <br />

<br />

<br />

Perhaps I should simply have said, given the economic realities of the small difference between the highest quality audiophile products, it's typical for dealers (and purchasers, for that matter) to exaggerate the differences, else how can they explain nearly $3k more in cost?<br />

<br />

For the record, my comment about the margins WAS a question, and was followed by an emoticon to indicate that it was a lighthearted jest.<br />

<br />

<br />

clay<br />

<br />

ps, time for me to take a break from this madness...for obvious reasons.<br />

<br />

pps, this one's for you Scot - I take it all back, I see the light, there is a time and a place for DBT, I think! ;0<br />

<br />

<br />

<br />

<br />

[artk]

<i>Comment removed by Editor.</i><br />

<br />

<i>Art please take your discussion about obtaining distributor and retailer pricing and markup in general (unrelated to the Weiss review or any specific product discussed on this page) to a separate forum thread.</i>

[barrows]

"Just curious - have you listened to all the DACs with opamp circuits that you routinely claim can not sound as good as discrete circuits? :)"<br />

<br />

Of course not, but to be clear, I have not stated that DACs with IC opamp analog stages all sound bad. What I have heard is comparisons of output stages, using the same DAC section, and mating it with various different output stages (numerous designs of both discrete circuits, and IC opamp circuits) with all other aspects of the design remaining the same. Through these experiences I have learned that IC opamps have a definite signature (although some are better than others for sure) there is always a slight electronic sound to the IC opamps in direct comparison to the best discrete stages. This is the sound that often make things like saxophones sound a little like synthesized sampled saxophones, and adds a slight electronic haze (or overlay) to well recorded vocals. With the best implemented IC opamp stages these differences are small, and some people may even prefer the slightly lower noise, and distortion products of the opamp designs, despite the slight electronic sound. BTW, my current CDP uses TI OPA 1632s in the I/V and balanced output stage, and it sounds very good-the OPA 1632 is an exceptional part (for a monolithic opamp)-I chose this CDP despite the fact that I believe it could be even better with a really well designed, discrete, output stage.<br />

As to your post on Coops, you may be correct in your supposition, what I did not appreciate about your post is that its entire premise was based on speculation as far as I could tell; you gave no specifics about the actual margins/profits involved in selling these products, and seemed to base your suppositions on complete assumptions about what these margins might be. My opinions on Discrete vs IC are based on a lot of listening experience while evaluating potential designs. <br />

Regarding the "small" differences-while I entirely agree with this from a quantitative point of view, I have a slightly different take on it from a qualitative point of view. I seek a transcendent listening experience, while the actual difference in playback may be small (quantitatively), like the difference between the best IC circuits and discrete circuits, it may be just what is needed to push my experience past the threshold of ordinary to transcendent; in which case the qualitative difference can be huge to me. Now for me to be speculative: it is possible that this type of small quantitative difference (which allows transcendence) is responsible for some of the hyperbole we sometimes hear about different products.

[artk]

You’re not implying that a salesperson on commission would ever be motivated by money, are you. I just got a comment pulled because I asked about retailer equipment markups, you might be next

[The Computer Audiophile]

Art - If you truly are interested in some of the topics you comment about you would start a new thread in the forum as I suggested. Unfortunately you've proven you have no interest in anything but attempting to discredit audiophiles and companies selling high end audio components.<br />

<br />

I'm going to ask you for the last time. What is your purpose for coming to an audiophile site and leaving the comments you've left?

[SteveS1]

The trade members on here are visible. The brands they stock are clear. If anyone seriously thinks that they have much to gain by over-hyping a product to the detriment of their personal credibility, I suggest they give that some thought. Business in this market relies heavily on repeat and recommendation.<br />

<br />

It's so easy to try these things at home (as opposed to the days of specialists setting up TTs etc.) that misleading encouragement is soon exposed. Sale or return is routinely available and comparisons at home commonplace. There is nowhere to hide.<br />

<br />

On the other hand we have 'contributions' from Art who's real identity and agenda remain hidden. His contributions suggest that there is no value in spending much on Hi Fi equipment because it all measures and sounds the same. Rather than relax and enjoy his music in this certain knowledge and purchase justification, he sees it as his mission to educate. Unfortunately he mainly does this by tediously referring to the outpourings of others who have trod this path before and offered similar amounts of insight.<br />

<br />

There is a word for persistently repeating tired old arguments to the unwilling recipients of born again evangelism - trolling.<br />

<br />

Steve

[Purite Audio]

Clay Hi, the MH/Amarra Model 4 /5 are very fine dacs, as I stated they have been my reference, I know you are an MH 'fanboy' and it is difficult to accept but the Weiss DAC202 is just a better dac,and by an appreciable margin.<br />

Regarding margins, I get 25% for Amarra products and as a 'retailer' for Weiss ( not distributor ) I get about 30%.<br />

Over here the Amarra Model 4 is £3220 and the Weiss DAC202 £3900.Rest assured if MH ( or anyone else for that matter )releases a new dac that improves upon the 202 I will be the first to voice my opinion.<br />

Keith.

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Keith, thanks for your honesty wrt pricing/margins. Good info to know.<br />

<br />

So, have you listened to the BADA yet? Care to compare?

[cfmsp]

<br />

<br />

Coop, thanks very much for sharing the UK price info (and the related margins). You are quite a gentleman for doing so. I stand corrected as it relates to the UK market. Equivalent US prices (at current conversions rates) are roughly $5k for the Amarra and $6k for the DAC202, that's very interesting.<br />

<br />

<br />

as for the fanboy comment, I've stated previously that Daniel, Gordon and BJ are the three DAC designers I most respect (and I own a DAC by two of them). If I didn't record occasionally, I might own a Weiss DAC now. Anyone who advances the cause for Firewire interfaces gets' my support. OTOH, spending $7k on JUST a DAC is not in the cards for me.<br />

<br />

clay<br />

<br />