Audiophiles lack of respect.

[thesurfingalien]

Hi Mark,

 

Can you tell me what being a "plant" means? i tried to find it online, but no luck...

 

 

 

[wgscott]

It means that you can spin sugar from photons.

 

[crisnee]

"If you agree with "almost all" of my perspectives, maybe I'll say "Just my (and Chris') perspective"."

 

Now you're talkin'; except you better add "Oops wait a moment, I better check with Chris because he did say 'ALMOST all of my perspectives.'"

 

On a more serious note (sort of). It didn't so much bother me, as make me wonder a bit where you were coming from, as opposed to just "listening" to what you had to say.

 

And as to the "cowboys" in the forum and hostile types; I often worry about their responses and sometimes don't come back to certain threads to avoid having to be upset by their words until I've steeled myself to deal with them. That doesn't stop me from making statements that might trigger said types however. Odd behavior.

 

Thanks Barry,

 

-Chris

 

[Mark Powell]

But that is what they called it, and what the accompanying literature referred to. We had score cards that the course instructors filled in, and also had to do questionaires. It all got fed into the 'system' and I came out as a 'plant'. They told us that some cooperate, some are leaders, some innovate, some follow, and some are 'plants', that get the best out of the others, while not being any particular one themselves, though they are not usually just 'followers' Plants are able to change hats according to circumstances, and that is true of me. A 'plant' often does what Jobs is reputed to have done. It works but sometimes it looks very hard, and can upset people. For me that is about right. But I never saw it formally defined. But a 'plant' is not the same as a 'leader'. I was never particularly quick to see a new, brilliant way of doing things, but apparently saved a whole lot of development time and money stopping people going too far down false tracks. It may be that they are 'planted' into a team to stir things up. But I do not see how anyone can be recognised as such a person until they have been doing it for a long time, and in 30 years I don't think I was deliberately 'planted' anywhere.

 

This pychological part wasn't a big thing, and you were not compelled to participate (a few did not want to). We were on a week long outdoor course (making bridges, tree houses, and stuff) that IBM apparently thought was good for teamwork. Most of us found that we had a lot of fun, but thought it really did not do anything for teamwork at all once we got back to our usual occupation (writing the next releases of various IBM mainframe system software, and annoying the IT department by trying it out, mainly).

 

[crisnee]

Hi Teresa,

 

I think the thing that grates on me is the formulaic-ness? of YMMV etc. It's obvious to most of us, so most of us don't need to hear/read it.

 

I would prefer real words when it seems they might be needed. For instance when a poster sounds like he's inexperienced when it comes to computer audio, or new to forum behavior, I'll add in a post to a thread just to tell him/her that he should not take folks word for certain things. Or if I have an opinion I'll make sure to post stating what I know and don't know and what is opinion. It's the stock phrase that grates. Meanwhile the phrase's true meaning (if indeed it's supposed to have a true meaning in a given circumstance) is overlooked or missed.

 

I think phrases like YMMV, IMHO and Barry's can have unintended consequences. The worst part is that they can make you think about the poster's motivation. IMHO, as opposed to my typical sham thoughts. IMO, as opposed to my friend's which I usually spout. YMMV, No sh*t jack. How dumb do you think I am? You are liable if I don't enjoy this dac. I don't really stand behind my opinion. I don't really know what I'm talking about and I'm warning you. If your ears are made of tin.

 

And when a poster makes intelligent thoughtful points, and particularly when they do it on a regular basis, the phrases sound condescending and patronizing, probably because they're so out of place and not thoughtful--just tacked on.

 

-Chris

 

[crisnee]

In general it's a person who is placed by an organization, group or person to influence or infiltrate another group or organization. The plant may or may not know but the group within which he is placed must not know that he is a plant. Plants are often used in police/espionage work. Similar to spies.

 

Noun

4 [1plant] a : stolen goods; also : a place for storing them b (1) : UNDERCOVER MAN *joined the criminal ring as a plant*(2) : fixed police surveillance *to put a plant on a suspect* c : a swindling plot : a scheme to defraud d (1) : something deliberately placed so that its discovery may deceive or mislead *left muddy footprints as a plant to confuse the police*(2) : something (as a news story or rumor) whose publication or dissemination is deliberately arranged by an individual or group for a particular purpose *the story had all the earmarks of a propaganda plant* e (1) : a seemingly casual statement or action deliberately inserted in a play to prepare the spectator for a later development or effect(2) : a person placed in an audience to take a seemingly spontaneous part in the proceedings f : a trap for wrongdoers *the town has set up several plants for traffic violators*

Verb

4 a : CONCEAL, HIDE *the plunder was planted under the floor of a restaurant— London Daily Chronicle* b : to conceal (something) temporarily where discovery may deceive or mislead *planted a gun in the butler's coat* *planted gold nuggets in a worthless mine* c : to covertly arrange publication or dissemination of *politicians and officials exploit their intimacy with the press and plant true or false stories with them— Times Literary Supplement* *a report, undoubtedly planted by him, that he had gone to South America— Robert Shaplen* d : to place or cause to be placed in a position under false colors *planted a spy on the committee's staff* *frequently the gang is not able to plant a confederate inside the house— Richard Harrison* e : to prepare beforehand : PREARRANGE *carefully plants the surprise word— Britain Today* *asked an obviously planted question*

 

From Merriam-Webster's Unabridged, Def. 4 of Plant.

 

-Chris

 

[Paul R]

Just a bit of history. Back when online social interaction was carried out with 300 baud modems and big phone bills, huge highly repetitive conversations not only were time consuming to type, but were expensive. I used to download newsgroups from Rutgers via dial up and then around 80 people would access my system to read and post to them. I lived in PA at the time, and Rutgers was a LD call. My phone bill climbed rapidly to levels where spending nearly a $1000 on a Telebit 9600 baud modem was a very good idea indeed, especially when hot topics started going on.

 

Such acronyms were developed to essentially save money, but they quickly became part of the culture, and always, to the best of my memory and knowledge, were intended to convey respect. In as few characters as possible.

 

For example, YMMV (Your Milage May Vary...) is shorthand for saying:

 

"This is what I think or have experienced, and I think it is a valid way to do this. But other people I know and respect may disagree with me, or have difference opinions or experiences, and you should consider what they say too."

 

With today's high speed networks, it is no longer important as a way to save money and precious disk space, but I think it still conveys a modicum of respect, as it was originally meant to.

 

My take on a couple others are below.

 

IMO, IMHO, IMNSHO, etc. (In My Opinion, In My Humble Opinion, In My Not So Humble Opinion)

 

Shorthand for: "This is what I have concluded or decided is the best or most correct answer. I am, however, not sure that it is the best answer in every case or for every other person in the world, so please remember it is just my opinion. "

 

TINAR (This is not a review)

 

Shorthand for: "I have not put the effort forth for this to be a review, and/or I may have put forth the effort to make it a real review, but it is not sanctioned as a review by the PTBs. (Powers That Be)" This came about because of obvious reasons. We don't, as a group, use it much here. I tend to use it when I am fairly certain that my opinion about a hunk of gear or something is not the same as either Chris or other folks whose opinions I respect but disagree with. (And I can't keep my big mouth shut.

 

There are others of course, but these three sets above are, so far as I know, always meant as a courtesy to and sign of respect for other users, especially when non-mainstream or non-orthodox opinions are present in the post.

 

Note that in the above I tried hard to avoid using them, and put in ten phrases that all are intended to avoid insulting anyone or avoid the appearance of berating you about your stated opinion, even though I disagree with it. Hopefully that succeeded!

 

YMMV, IMO, and IIRC would have been a lot more concise and said the same thing, no?

 

-Paul

 

 

 

[elcorso]

Thanks for the compressionary regarding IMO, LOL, IMHO, IMNSHO, etc.

 

I know you (North) Americans live in a heavy rush*** world (because you want it this way) then you like to compress phrases or expressions. But it is difficult to us, non English speakers to follow everything. Even if I (still) have a very good memory, I can't memorize this, maybe because I don't think in English...

 

Mark:

 

"…I too am a wonderful genius. My wife thinks so…".

 

You are a Lucky man, God blessed you with such a wife. No comments on mine.

 

Julf,

 

"…Open-Minded Man Grimly Realizes How Much Life He's Wasted Listening To Bullshit…"

 

Everyone who lives in a trash can, will eat, digest and smell like trash or BS.

 

I never listen to the news on TV, from the newspapers I read only from wise writers, and of course the comics. If there was an earthquake in Akinostan or a terrible flood on Akuistan, what can I do? Regarding the global warming either.

 

How I now if my country is crashing? My mom will call me!

 

Or if Dr. Mercola tells you have to eat uncooked eggs to avoid cholesterol, remove your amalgams from your teeth, each broccoli like a rabbit, exercise like Tyson, remove your lower body grease belt, drink only two glasses of red wine each day and don't smoke.

 

Please Dr. Mercola, the population of the world are increasing very fast, what do you want, to eat humans in 20 years, like some members on this forum right now?

 

I had read a lot of human history, only to know the cause of our increasing stupidity, but I stop reading about, when I realized it is genetic.

 

If the last century was called the 'communication century'.

 

This one should be called the 'over-information century'.

 

Or the 'misinformation century' is you base your knowledge in Wikipedia.

 

Carpe Musica,

 

Roch

 

*** Thanks of the 'rush' I got five coronary bypasses. That's why I'm now a Bonsai artist.

 

[rlnt500]

Elcorso,

 

"But it is difficult to us, non English speakers to follow everything."

 

You don't give yourself enough credit. Reading your post, you fit in quite well. I would have never guessed that you are not an English speaking person.

 

[Teresa]

I will retire acronyms in my posts. For example instead of typing IMHO, I will instead type "In my humble opinion", "In my personal opinion", "this is what makes sense to me", "this is how it sounds to me", etc. I will no longer assume that everyone knows what acronyms mean.

 

I believe in very few actual facts, which is good in my personal opinion since scientific hypothesis of even basic processes change over time.

 

The problem I ran into when I first got on the internet over a decade ago is I discovered that some people try to present their personal opinions as fact. I naively believed that everyone was presenting their own personal experiences, opinions and feelings. I had no idea whatsoever that so many people actually believe their personal opinions are facts, and were personally assaulted when other peoples experiences, opinions and feelings differed from their own thus challenging their "facts". It's all opinion so don't get bent out of shape if other people hear and see things differently than you, this is life.

 

I started using these acronyms as a self-defense mechanism to guard against this. I still do not understand why some people try to twist peoples opinions into facts and then try to prove that their facts [sic] are wrong, when they are actually opinions and opinions (in my humble opinion) can never be wrong, as people experience external stimuli differently. If some posters didn't do this there would be no need to stress that what one is writing about is their own personal opinions, experiences and feelings and not facts. Life would be so much easier if everyone respected everyone's right to have their own opinions, experiences and feelings.

 

Until then I will do what I can to stress that what I am posting is my opinion and what I read from everyone else is also their opinion even when they try to pretend they are facts.

 

With music it is simple, listen to what you like, don't listen to what you do not like. My favorite example is Todd Kreiger who cannot listen to high resolution digital in any form as it makes his head hurt, whereas high resolution digital is what I enjoy the most and I find it the most comfortable, and it's 16 bit digital that often makes my head hurt. I would never in a million years tell Todd he is wrong, we are both right, different ears, different heads.

 

I hope this little post helps people with different experiences, opinions and feelings get along a little better.

 

 

[elcorso]

Nice worlds!

 

I'm on the same opinion, if we consider listening to music is an art, and I consider it is.

 

Is like when different people looks at the same painting in a museum, gallery, etc., everyone could have a different opinion regarding the painting. Our senses differs a lot from people to people, and the hearing sense is 1000 to 1 more sensible than our sight. And our taste, a lot more.

 

Thanks to remove acronyms from your posts.

 

Regards,

 

Roch

 

[Teresa]

Mark Powell said "I'm an objectivist

Lately even more so, mainly because of some of the crazy things I have read, here and elsewhere."

 

Some of those crazy things have worked for me, such as Shineola disc cleaner, Stoplight green pen edge treatment, CD mats, and the XLO demagnetizing and burn-in tones. Just because a tweak works for me does not mean it will work for you, so if you do feel inclined make sure you get a satisfaction money back guarantee.

 

See:

Why do people bash tweaks they have not tried? http://audioiconoclast.blogspot.com/2010/09/why-do-people-bash-tweaks-they-have-not.html

 

Burn-In and Demagnetizing works in the digital domain.

http://audioiconoclast.blogspot.com/2010/04/burn-in-and-demagnetizing-works-in.html

 

TWEAKS THAT ACTUALLY WORK

http://audioiconoclast.blogspot.com/2010/03/tweaks-that-actually-work-1998.html

 

My audio designer friend John Curl, also a subjectivist, measures all component parts used in his designs to insure they meet the minimum specification he desires. However in his final selection of parts he uses his ears as the final measurement since test equipment can only measure a very small part of what we can hear. He has to told me that two parts with the very same values and measurements can sound wildly different.

 

As a subjectivist I respond only to what I can hear or see and take the printed word with a grain of salt. It may be interesting to read but does not change my experience with music. I respect you being an objectivist but perhaps will never understand the mindset.

 

[bdiament]

We often hear it referred to as subjectivism but to me, subjective more properly defines how one feels about what they've heard.

 

I think there is a third category, neither subjectivist, nor objectivist, that might be referred to as observational (or observation-ist?).

 

I find it interesting that the programmer who created what I find to be far and away the most transparent sample rate conversion algorithm and the most transparent dither/noise shaping algorithm in my experience ("transparent" here meaning the results sound the most like the un-processed original) utilized listening tests in his development of the final code. By a strange coincidence, his algorithms also seem to measure the best, based on the currently available measurements of such (e.g. this).

 

There is the observation and there is how one feels about the observations.

And to my mind, there is also a subjective aspect to measurements, insofar as the decisions to accept certain criteria as the yardsticks of "value".

 

It isn't all so black and white as some would paint the picture. The Yin contains a bit of Yang and vice versa.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[elcorso]

Hi Barry,

 

Then it could be a fourth category: The non observation-ist?

 

In my country argot this will be called valeverguista. Don't ask me for a literal translation, is something like "I don't care for nothing". "All the gear, formats, sample and bit rate, etc., sounds the same".

 

But what are you talking about is taste at the end.

 

If you find a piece a software that measure perfectly and please your ears, then, you are a lucky man also.

 

For example, I love abstract paintings, and a lot of 'abstract' music (post-modernism). For me it looks great and sound great, with another added value (to me) creationism, since sometimes I get bored of Beethoven, Schubert, Bach, Miles Davis, Diana Krall, etc., etc.

 

When some friends get in my music room and I'm listening to the Hadouk Trio, or something like that, they use to say "Hey Roch, what are you smoking today...?"

 

Your comparison for the Yin and the Yang is a good and valid one. Since nothing in this whole world is only Yin, or only Yang either.

 

There are other things that are related to circumstances (environment, mood, etc.). As Ortega & Gasset famous quote "Yo soy yo y mis circunstancias" , that could be translated as "I'm what I'm under my circumstances".

 

Kind regards,

 

Roch

 

[Mel Hi ReZ]

Wow, I never thought I would see this Spanish slang in this type of forum, but I know exactly what @elcorso means, having been raised and lived a couple of decades in South America. And thanks for not translating literally....

 

Unfortunately the vast majority of people I'm afraid would fall in the "valeverguista" category when it comes to music art appreciation and sound quality.

 

[sandyk]

Teresa keeps referring to John Curl.

For those who do not know who John Curl is, he was the original designer of the Parasound amplifiers.

John Curl's "Blowtorch" preamp is a mighty expensive piece of art, with reportedly extremely high performance to boot.

 

FROM DIY Audiö :

John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part II

 

2,156 PAGES and 21,559 REPLIES (to date)

This is just in the 2nd thread !!!

 

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analog-line-level/146693-john-curls-blowtorch-preamplifier-part-ii-2156.html

 

[elcorso]

When we use this world (in Latin America) we don't think in the literal translation, but in the meaning. It's like when (North) Americans uses BS (BullSh*t) , I guess nobody will think in the sh*t, but in the meaning.

 

But, yes, I use a lot this world in my country, since I'm tired that thanks of the huge "valeverguismo" of our politicians and from a vast majority of the population we don't have better countries.

 

Hi Alex,

 

John Curl has a lot of genius electronic designs, he designed also for Mark Levinson (The man and his previous company), Dennisen & others, and now for Parasound.

 

Regards,

 

Roch

 

[wdw]

....just to set the record straight for the youngsters.....John Curl has a far greater history than just the "blow torch" pre-amp or the more recent Parasound products. He is iconic and was the original designer of the first Levinson products, circa 1980-90 and these were earthshaking (in our silly little audiophile orbit) and the best to be had for some period of time.

WDW

 

[Thomas J]

We hear much more than we can say, so both hearing and the enjoyment of audio are therefore largely implicit. You hear an incredible live performance. What can you say but "you had to be there"? Why would that be?

 

The question points the direction of objective subjectivity, which means music---both its content and transmission---will ever be subjective, and objectively so. Yin and Yang as elcorso says.

 

I mean, who can capture in words the sound of «that violin»? Yet I know it when I hear it, because I keep playing it on my stereo, and wanting more. Why do I know more is there? We know from real experience how real sounds sound. And depending on our diligence in developing both a more finely graded language to describe what we hear, and our hearing sensitivity itself*, will we find ways to understand at the electronics and coding levels what is inadequate.

 

On goes the search.

 

* I once heard David Bohm describe a man who, on his death-bed, reported seeing, in amazing detail, a fly out a window at something like 100 metres. I have no doubt our auditory input is as detailed as our visual, and that for various reasons and functions our mental processing reduces the resolution of our sense inputs to allow some functional internal balance. This implies that our sensory perception can evolve, tremendously.

 

[sandyk]

WDW

It's a shame he associated himself with the Bybee Purifier though.

Regards

Alex

 

[sandyk]

Hi Roch

I just used the Blowtorch thread as an example, as even now, as the number of thread views and replies indicate, there is still a great deal of interest in John Curl's designs.

Regards

Alex

 

[Thomas J]

Bybees work. ; )

 

[sandyk]

"No shame

 

 

Bybees work. ; ) "

 

I haven't said they don't, but J.C. came in for a lot of flack in DIYAudio where they tested samples, and did subjective listening tests.

IIRC, they were claimed to be something like a .025 ohms encapsulated resistor. However, the DIY Audio Moderator who spearheaded the tests is known for his strong anti subjectivity views.

Alex

 

 

[Thomas J]

he came into flak because he said he heard something somebody didn't and furthermore couldn't measure. That's a familiar situation to me.

 

I suspect the resistor creates some sort of phase difference or noise that combines with that across the cylinder to reduce what I think is the 1/f noise the Bybees target. The cylinder is conductive, btw.

 

[Mark Powell]

Teresa

 

I really don't know. Perhaps my definition of 'objectivist' is much narrower than some might think. I have tried all sorts of things, CD edge treatment, anti-resonance blocks on top of my speakers...etc...etc...etc. None have made a difference, but I do try. Difference or not, I always place my laptop (tiny little rubber feet on a plastic base) on a granite slab when ripping a CD. Because any improvement there, which actually I don't hear, will be 'embedded' in the rip from then on. And it makes me feel I am doing everything I can. I see some very convincing literature on the website of 'Vertex AQ', a UK anti-vibration and power treatment company. And in the HiFi News 'At Home' series a while ago a surprising number of people used it and said it was good.

 

So perhaps I am a rather half-hearted 'objectivist'. But I still think some of the things I see here are nuts. The continuing insistence of people to describe 'digital' cables 'sound quality' in the old analogue terms which we are comfortable with and which are in fact often true for an analogue interconnect. A silver USB cable will NOT sound 'brighter' than a copper one, whatever the user thinks he hears. And I don't care how many people say it does, it is a total nonsense, and if they had the remotest clue how computers and DACs work they would agree. Sorry, but I am immovable on that particular example.

 

Acronyms. I do not think they are needed. Other than things like "The Consumer Electronics Show is next week" or whatever, everything we say here is an opinion. That's a given. We don't need IMHO, etc. YMMV is sometimes useful, when you wish to particularly emphasise that other people may get different results. But others are pointless, and may irritate some people (but not me).

 

Regards