Audiophiles lack of respect.

[Mark Powell]

"By a strange coincidence, his algorithms also seem to measure the best"

 

I don't think it is a coincidence at all.

 

Or are you saying it 'tongue in cheek'

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

"CD edge treatment...None have made a difference, but I do try."

 

There is actually very solid engineering reasoning for why using a marker to color the edge of a CD changes the sound. The color actually causes the servo to go nuts affecting the power supply and causing a large amount of measurable jitter during CD playback.

 

P.S. I like the term half hearted objectivist. Dare I say it, but it actually sounds like you're an optimist when it comes to this stuff :~)

 

[Mark Powell]

Granite slab when ripping.

 

I will put my long-deceased father's headstone back. Eventually

 

[Julf]

"There is actually very solid engineering reasoning for why using a marker to color the edge of a CD changes the sound."

 

Snopes.com, probably the most well-known site "attempting to give accurate information about rumors and urban legends on a variety of topics", seems to disagree

 

"Despite numerous claims about the efficacy of "greening" CDs, there is no valid scientific reason to explain why marking CDs with green Green Edge and Scam pens would improve sound quality, nor has anyone ever been able to consistently distinguish between marked and unmarked discs in a double blind comparison"

 

[Julf]

Had dinner last night with an old friend (let's call him Mike) I hadn't seen in a while. He is a computer geek, currently working for Google, but also a musician and actor, and he has recorded and produced a couple of CDs. I would describe Mike as open-minded, as he is into a number of alternative things. Now in his 50's, he is also financially quite well off. So the perfect audiophile material?

 

So, our discussion went pretty much like this:

 

Me: "So, are you into hi-fi and audio?"

Mike: "Well... Depends... I am definitely not one of those audiophiles who fuss over cables costing thousands of dollars..."

Me: "Well, yes, but with analog cables, I can see they might have a point. But some people seem to be into the audible differences between USB cables."

Mike: "Really?"

Me: "Well, I have even heard claims that the cable of your hard disk might make a difference. And that sound files transferred over the Internet get corrupted unless protected by zipping (but not compressing) them."

Mike: "You are making this up!"

Me: "No, I am not - I have actually seen those specific claims."

Mike: "You *are* making this up! Those guys can't be for real! Get me some more wine!"

 

So I guess we didn't get a new convert to our hobby last night...

 

 

[Teresa]

"There is actually very solid engineering reasoning for why using a marker to color the edge of a CD changes the sound. The color actually causes the servo to go nuts affecting the power supply and causing a large amount of measurable jitter during CD playback."

 

Chris I am curious where you read that as it is the direct opposite of the manufacturer's claims and my personal experience.

 

"CD STOPLIGHT® is a proprietary plastic coating that is applied to the edge of a Compact Disc to reduce the scattered reflections of the laser beam and increase the signal-to-noise ratio of the detected laser. The result is a significant decrease in the harsh "edginess" in the sound of many CDs and an increase in clarity, resolution and ambience."

 

http://www.audioprism.com/cd_stopight_application.pdf

 

My listening impressions of greening SACDs and CDs, before and after treatment.

 

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue43/green_pen.htm

 

"Right away I noticed a considerable increase in volume! Once I lowered the volume to a level comparable to the before treatment level I also noticed the bass was warmer, the performing space was "airier", the outline of the instruments seemed more defined and the dynamic attacks were sharper. It appears to smooth out the sound, increase ambiance and make percussive attacks more exciting. All this from a green ink ring around the outside of the disc, amazing!"

 

I really do not believe these benefits from painting discs green are from increased "jitter", I would believe decreased jitter though. I would think that by reducing the scattered reflections of the laser beam the servo would have an easier time, not a harder one.

 

 

[Julf]

Quoting from the snopes link I posted earlier:

 

"As former Stereo Review and High Fidelity editor David Ranada pointed out, however, light travels so quickly that it would be reflected back to the laser from the edge of the disc while the laser was still reading the same digital bit and therefore could not produce a distorted reading. Ranada confirmed his assertion by connecting a digital error counter to a CD player to compare data errors produced during playback of both colored and uncolored discs. He found no difference between the two types of discs at any portion of their surfaces -- inner rim, outer rim, or middle. He also tried coloring only half the circumference of a disc and using an oscilloscope to analyze the signal picked up by the laser. The scope showed no difference between the patterns produced by the colored and uncolored halves of the disc. "

 

 

[Teresa]

I don't believe everything I read especially when it contradicts real life. To me that just means that we do not fully understand how digital works, because the increase in resolution is real.

 

[sandyk]

Julf

Are you sure that he doesn't mean no differences were observed in the "eye" patterns between an untreated disc, and a disc where half of the circumference was treated ?

Alex

 

[Teresa]

"...nor has anyone ever been able to consistently distinguish between marked and unmarked discs in a double blind comparison"

 

This means nothing whatsoever to me as I'm not a believer in DBTs, see "Why ABX Testing Usually Produces Null Results with Human Subjects" http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue56/abx.htm

 

[Julf]

"Julf as a subjectivist" - you definitely got my attention there!

 

"To me that just means that we do not fully understand how digital works,

because the increase in resolution is real."

 

To you it is real, and that is of course a totally valid statement to make. But...

 

"I don't believe everything I read especially when it contradicts real life."

 

I am curious that you, as a subjectivist, would use the expression "real life". Which "real" life are we talking about? The "real life" you perceive, the "real life" I perceive, or the "real life" Søren Kierkegaard did perceive when he was still alive?

 

 

[Julf]

Do you have a point or are you just trying to be facetious?

 

[Teresa]

"I am curious that you, as a subjectivist, would use the expression "real life". Which "real" life are we talking about? The "real life" you perceive, the "real life" I perceive, or the "real life" Søren Kierkegaard did perceive when he was still alive?"

 

That would be my "real life", I cannot speak for your real life or anyone else's real life.

 

As a subjectivist I can only speak of my experiences, my opinions and my perceptions of my own life and everything in it including music and how tweaks effect the way music sounds to me. I cannot speak to how these changes will be perceived by anyone else.

 

 

[Julf]

"As a subjectivist I can only speak of my experiences, my opinions and my perceptions of my own life and everything in it including music and how tweaks effect the way music sounds to me. I cannot speak to how these changes will be perceived by anyone else."

 

I agree. Thanks for the clarification!

 

 

[sandyk]

Julf

I imagine that it would be very difficult to perform the test as you have indicated.It would however be much easier to compare the "eye" patterns of an untreated and a treated disc.

That was just an observation,and nothing else should be read into it.

Alex

 

[Julf]

"I imagine that it would be very difficult to perform the test as you have indicated.It would however be much easier to compare the "eye" patterns of an untreated and a treated disc."

 

Well, the only description of the measurements is "He also tried coloring only half the circumference of a disc and using an oscilloscope to analyze the signal picked up by the laser. The scope showed no difference between the patterns produced by the colored and uncolored halves of the disc.", so I was assuming he probably was comparing eye patterns. But that was just an assumption on my part.

 

[Mark Powell]

Seeing all this I am going to trade in my speakers for a felt-tip pen and a nice oscilloscope

 

'The Objectivist'

 

[Julf]

"Seeing all this I am going to trade in my speakers for a felt-tip pen and a nice oscilloscope"

 

Reminds me of the time, back in high school in the days that dinosaurs roamed the earth and they were still publishing "Wireless World", when I connected a scope to the audio outputs of a tape player (left channel to the x-axis and right channel to the y-axis), and broadcast the video image of the scope screen on the brand new closed-circuit TV system (reaching every classroom), while playing "Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together in a Cave and Grooving with a Pict" by Pink Floyd...

 

Psychedelic, man! And no, I wasn't even high!

 

 

 

[Jud]

"There is actually very solid engineering reasoning for why using a marker to color the edge of a CD changes the sound. The color actually causes the servo to go nuts affecting the power supply and causing a large amount of measurable jitter during CD playback."

 

Chris I am curious where you read that as it is the direct opposite of the manufacturer's claims and my personal experience.

 

I do seem to recall reading reported measurements showing an increase in jitter with CD Stoplight. If I have time, will see if my Google-fu can turn it up. Others are invited to look in the meantime.

 

[bdiament]

Hi wdw,

 

I remember John Curl from further back than 1980.

I first heard of the Levinson JC-2 preamp in 1974, when I believe it was introduced.

 

There was a large, "coffee table" book called "Audio Alternative" by Mark Tobak that was big among myself and a circle of audio friends. Those were the days of Magnepan Tympani speakers, Audio Research SP-3 preamps, Dahlquist DQ-10 speakers (which I got a while later), Fulton cables, etc.

 

Of course, to younger readers, those might also seem like the days when "thunder lizards" roamed the earth. ;-}

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[bdiament]

Hi Julf,

 

Have you ever seen any measurements to prove David Ranada exists?

I haven't and will admit to my skepticism. (This, the result of knowing his writings over the years.)

I'm confident if the purported Mr. Ranada was analyzed using an oscilloscope, the scope would also show no difference. The "digital error counter" though, might read off the charts. ;-}

 

Making a measurement involves the subjective assumption that the measurement will reflect what is heard. Is also assumes that what is being measured is the correct thing in relation to the sound that is experienced by a listener. (I'm reminded of the old saying "If you only have a hammer, you tend to view every problem as if it was a nail.")

 

By the way, have you ever tried the product in question or any like it?

I'm seeing a pattern in your posts where you seem to shoot things down but have never mentioned direct experience. Don't know if you realize it but you are making a statement about folks who have direct experience and did find something that eluded Mr. Ranada's measurements. Perhaps you are aware of this and don't care. I'd like to think it is something you haven't considered yet.

 

Personally, I have tried marker and did not detect any difference other than my fingers getting colored. I would not however, declare anything about anyone else's experience because I don't have any way of knowing what that might be.

 

On a similar note, I have heard differences in CD playback when another disc is used as a "weight" atop the one being played and I've heard differences between two brand new discs after washing one of them.

 

These last won't show if one is measuring the eye pattern recovered by the laser. Measuring the activity of the focussing servo and the affects on the power supply voltage to the audio circuits might though.

 

Then there are the instances of CD pressings not sounding like the master sent to the replication plant by the mastering engineer. Doesn't matter what "theory" says, any experienced mastering engineer (and any of their carefully listening clients) knows this is the case. Listen to the CD master itself, then listen to the CD pressing and there is more often than not, a distinct loss of focus and fine detail. (With pressings from the very best replication facilities, I have trouble telling the difference without a direct A/B comparison. With most pressings, no A/B is needed as mastering an album involves listening to it over and over and over again, very closely... to the point where the engineer "learns" the sound of the album, every little nuance. There have been times I've been pretty shocked at how much was lost on a CD pressing.)

Yet when the data is extracted to computer, it can be shown to be 100% identical. Of course, we don't listen to data -- unless one enjoys the sound of a fax machine. ;-}

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

 

[bdiament]

Hi Mark,

 

**"...I don't think it is a coincidence at all.

Or are you saying it 'tongue in cheek' ...**

 

In direct comparisons against the unprocessed original, the results of using these algorithms sound more like the unprocessed original than the results of using any of the few dozen others I've got in the toolbox.

 

I don't know if it would necessarily follow that the measurements would be the best too. I've never seen a measurement for harmonic nuance or soundstage depth at different parts of the stage or of dynamic range in different areas of the frequency range and within different areas of the dynamic spectrum.

 

In this case, the measurements on the page I linked to which to my ears correspond the most with what I hear from the different sample rate conversion algorithms I've tested at the 1kHz tones. But those are showing harmonics (i.e. distortion) more than 150 dB down! Many would say those are inaudible. Yet, compare some of these and you'll see a very few of lower still. (see iZotope's 64-bit SRC, steep, no-alias, for one).

The measurements made here (far from complete, which I don't believe is yet possible) suggest that 150 dB down and 180 dB down is an audible difference. Yet is 150 is already "inaudible", how could one detect "even less audible"?

 

I'm not suggesting that's what I'm hearing. I'm saying that visually, those measurements correspond with the differences I hear between algorithms more than the other measurements. (The sweep tests, as far as I'm concerned help sort out the real trash. All the good ones will have perfect sweeps.)

 

So in this case, my favorite SRC, the one I hear as most transparent, happens to measure in the "even less audible" than "inaudible" category. That leaves me with questions, more than it leaves me with answers. Hence my comment about the coincidence.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[Julf]

Hi, Barry,

 

"Don't know if you realize it but you are making a statement about folks who have direct experience and did find something that eluded Mr. Ranada's measurements."

 

I specifically said "Snopes.com, probably the most well-known site "attempting to give accurate information about rumors and urban legends on a variety of topics", seems to disagree". So I simply pointed out that one fairly well-known source disagreed with a specific part of what Chris had stated. So what I said was a purely factual statement, and unlike a lot of people here on this forum posting direct personal attacks or insults, I don't see how that is in any way an unfair statement about "folks who have direct experience".

 

"On a similar note, I have heard differences in CD playback when another disc is used as a "weight" atop the one being played and I've heard differences between two brand new discs after washing one of them."

 

I have absolutely no problem believing that, just as with your example of differences in CD pressings, but I believe those differences are probably measurable. A CD is definitely an analog media (even if the laser reading the surface turns it back into digital form). Due to the limitations of the technology, that process has a pretty poor error margin, and no check sums to ensure a bit-perfect read (as short drop-outs were, at the time the CD was invented, considered acceptable). Different pressings have different error margins, depending on the quality of the pressing, and factors such as additional weight and a cleaner surface can definitely affect it too. My point is that that error margin can be measured and compared. That is of course only my humble opinion, but I think I am entitled to an opinion, just like anybody else on this forum.

 

[RealAudio]

"there are the instances of CD pressings not sounding like the master sent to the replication plant by the mastering engineer. Doesn't matter what "theory" says"

 

That is what theory says. Mass production of cds is a mechanical process. It was known to be imperfect, that's why data cds have error correction codes.

 

 

[bdiament]

I'm talking about how the CDs sound.

The "theory" makes no mention of this other than to assume the pressing is a perfect replica (sonically) of the master. The overwhelming majority of folks at most of the dozens of CD replication plants I've worked with, will tell you the pressings sound "exactly like the masters". The few that have actually listened will tell you something else.

 

This has nothing to do with error correction, a form of which is utilized for audio CDs as well. Neither is it a manifestation of error correction.

 

Most audiophiles and civilians I know have never had the opportunity to hear a CD master so the subject either doesn't come up or they assume what they've been told.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com