Audiophiles lack of respect.

[elcorso]

Right now there are two very respectable DL places (at least to me) that sells their DLs as uncompressed zip, from uncompressed files:

 

• Blue Coast Recordings (Cookie Marenco's).

 

• Channel Classics.

 

But the followings sells uncompressed formats also:

 

• Barry Diament, from Barry Diament Audio & Soundkeeper Recordings sells only his incredible recordings in uncompressed AIFF or WAVE (the choice is yours, in a physical DVD).

 

• Reference Recordings. (If you buy the DVD)

 

If somebody could believe this is only like a caprice, please think a little, since is inexpensive, faster, etc. to sell everything compressed in FLAC or whatever.

 

Why to zip (but uncompressed), because 'some' wise people discovered that this way there is no lost in the SQ of the DL or physical media (but also uncompressed).

 

Alex (Sandy K) had being, since a lot of time, making a lot of experiments in the rip process and, now, sending some test files on uncompressed zip format also, and there is a big difference form the last ones, regarding music instruments attack, but mainly on decay, also in ambience on the recording (less jitter because a better low bass?). I don't know, and maybe no one, there is impossible to measure this, as today instruments capacity. It could be server problems, since they are worst music servers than others.

 

And yes, Julf, the identical music files have the same length and checksum.

 

Regarding the big evolution in digital music playback in the last two years, they are impossibles happening right now, or that we are capable to notice before?

 

My 2 cents (about 6 colones, devaluation continuos).

 

Roch

 

[Julf]

"Why to zip (but uncompressed), because 'some' wise people discovered that this way there is no lost in the SQ of the DL or physical media (but also uncompressed)."

 

So, I have to repeat my question about what it might be that corrupts FLAC, WAV and compressed zip, but does not affect uncompressed zip files, spreadsheets, databases, pictures, programs, apps, web pages or email? And does it affect mp3's?

 

 

 

[bdiament]

Hi Julf,

 

**"...But imagine if one of your amateur astronomers would tell you he saw a flying saucer? Would you just accept it as a valid observation, and assume that over time, you too might start seeing them?..."**

 

A hypothetical question can receive only a hypothetical answer.

 

Beyond that, it seems to me this one is a bit of a leap in that I don't understand which aspect of audio -or anyone's description- you are equating with this.

 

Also, no one I know in the amateur astronomy community (and I know a lot of folks in this hobby) has said he's seen a flying saucer. Actually, amateur astronomers are going to be the last folks to make such an assertion, which I would much more readily expect to come from someone inexperienced in observing the Universe.

 

But... if such an assertion came from an amateur astronomer I knew (and I believed they were serious) and knowing what I know about how AAs have a considerably better than average educated view of such things, I would get curious. Perhaps they would shed some new light on our mutual "understanding" of space and time and hence, would contribute to my altering my own perspective. Or perhaps not.

Again, these sort of statements tend to come from folks who haven't spent much time observing the Universe with their own eyes.

 

As to the audio example you gave, has your friend ever suggested you might be "imagining" those "interesting harmonic structures"? Or suggested they'd be more prone to believing you if they had "objective verification"? I doubt it would change what you hear (or what they do or don't hear) either way.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

 

 

 

[Julf]

Hi again, Barry,

 

"it seems to me this one is a bit of a leap in that I don't understand which aspect of audio -or anyone's description- you are equating with this."

 

Well, I think a good example would be the Internet Cookie Monster that corrupts FLAC, WAV and compressed zip files, but does not affect uncompressed zip files, spreadsheets, databases, pictures, programs, apps, web pages or email.

 

"Also, no one I know in the amateur astronomy community (and I know a lot of folks in this hobby) has said he's seen a flying saucer. Actually, amateur astronomers are going to be the last folks to make such an assertion"

 

Indeed. And that is where my analogy wasn't very good, as amateur astronomers have a high regard and understanding of science. But, hypothetically, try to imagine a group of amateur astronomers who are convinced they know the stuff much better than the "engineer type" professional astronomers.

 

"As to the audio example you gave, has your friend ever suggested you might be "imagining" those "interesting harmonic structures"?"

 

No, but if that would happen, I would agree with him/her. Any higher structure I hear in the music is completely formed by my brain.

 

Pretty much only shows that we have a bad analogy

 

 

 

 

[Paul R]

Hey Barry - the AA's I hang around with spot more "UFO"s than any other group I can think of. Of course, they usually don't stay "Unidentified" very long at all.

 

(grin)

 

-Paul

 

 

 

[RealAudio]

What makes you think you’re downloading uncompressed zip files? If you read the Channel Classics website it says “An added feature of the Channel Classics Downloader is a file decompressor that will appear and automatically decompress the files once the download has completed”. Then again, if you believe it, it must be true.

 

As an aside, with nothing but mediocre performers, how can any of Barry Diament’s recordings be “incredible”?

 

 

[elcorso]

In my case I only use 'imagination' to create Bonsais, this is my only 'artist' vein, when I was younger I was a nice cartoonist, but not anymore.

 

Regarding 'corruption' I only found this in music files and in a lot of politics.

 

I guess some very extremely complicated Excel files (where I use to work) are far more simple than a low-rez music file. And of course, we send those (Excel) files all over the world, and some few times, they had being corrupted, as a matter of fact I'm UL zipping it (by uncompressed zip), just to be sure.

 

"...Any higher structure I hear in the music is completely formed by my brain...". Absolutely yes, and thank God for this, but I can't believe than somebody who listen to nice music do this only to excite and vibrate their cilia in the inner ear.

 

Roch

 

[elcorso]

When I DL the zip file is exactly the same size when I unzip it.

 

If you don't like Barry's music don't buy it, but your papa (if you have one) never told you to have respect of the labor of love of other people?

 

Maybe your problem is since you are 'always away'!

 

Roch

 

[Teresa]

UFO's are simply Unidentified Flying Objects which just means the observer cannot identify them based on known designs. They are only suspected of being of alien origin when all terrestrial explanations are exhausted.

 

 

[bdiament]

Hi Julf,

 

**'...No, but if that would happen, I would agree with him/her. Any higher structure I hear in the music is completely formed by my brain..."**

 

Okay, I hope we can agree to disagree.

The musical instruments I've experienced tend to have harmonic structures and for those that don't hear them, they're even measurable and quantifiable. Not that that makes a difference for folks who don't hear them. Or for folks that do... unless they discount their own perceptions.

 

This reminds me of another anecdote:

"Was it good for you too?"

"Hold on, let me check my EKG and I'll let you know." ;-}

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[Teresa]

Measured!? Who needs measurements? Have faith!

 

Well audio designers for one. My friend John Curl measures all component parts used in his designs to insure they meet the minimum specification he desires. However in his final selection of parts he uses his ears as the final measurement since test equipment can only measure a very small part of what we can hear. He has to told me that two parts with the very same values and measurements can sound wildly different.

 

For the rest of us we really don't need measurements. Impressive looking measurements might help us lay down the long green for an new audio component. But our ears (not measurements) will determine how much we like it, and if you keep it or trade it in for something more to our liking.

 

So in short for listeners we have to please our ears and our ears only, any other course will lead to disappointment and not enjoying the music.

 

Listen to what you enjoy and you will be happy!

 

[goldsdad]

Teresa, ask Mr. Curl to measure the elasticity of your bits.

 

 

[bdiament]

awayalways,

 

Happily for me, you don't have to like any of the performers I select for my recordings.

I happen to select them precisely because I like them. A lot.

 

There is no accounting for what musical directions move (or don't move different listeners). Happily for you, no one is forcing you to purchase any of my recordings.

 

 

**"...Then again, if you believe it, it must be true...."**

 

How many of those files have you downloaded and then compared before and after "decompression"?

Or is it simply another case of shoot first, think later (or maybe not at all)?

But then manners are another story altogether, aren't they?

 

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

[Teresa]

Not so much corruption but differences in perceived sound quality. To my ears and on my equipment WAV sounds better than AIFF which sounds better than ALAC, I've never heard FLAC. These are all bit identical. I have no desire to understand why the differences exist as that will not effect at all how they sound.

 

My best sounding computer music files are from Reference Recordings HRx's and MA Recordings 24 bit data-DVDs. I do have excellent sounding high resolution music files downloaded the internet, however my experience tells me that perhaps DVDs are a superior delivery vehicle to telephone or cable lines over the internet.

 

I think Elcorso addressed this and your other concerns quite elegantly. Rather than trying to second guess, why not try some uncompressed zip downloads or WAV files from DVD-ROMs. That is the ONLY way you know if the difference is important to your ears. And please be concerned about your ears only, not everyone else's, OK?

 

 

[crisnee]

"It is IMPOSSIBLE to judge how good a 24/192 track will sound from streaming. In fact, they will sound very mediocre even compared to a good CD, when streamed."

 

What does streaming do to files that would cause them to sound less good? I ask, because MOG streams music at 320 kb, and sounds less good then native 320 kb files. I'm not talking halts and streaming issues due to bandwidth problems. I of course don't know if streaming of the files is the problem in MOG's case, but.... Any ideas?

 

And Barry Diamant. I love your posts, they're so well written and thoughtful and most importantly , I agree with almost all of your perspectives. However "Just my perspective of course," or some such really grates. In the back of my mind I'm waiting for it, when will it show up? It's so condescending; and who else's perspective would it be anyway?

 

-Chris

 

 

 

 

[bdiament]

Hi Chris,

 

Thank you for your kind comments.

Sorry my saying "just my perspective" bothers you.

 

I use the phrase so my statements are not misconstrued as being intended to state Universal Truth (add reverb for those words) but merely how I see/hear things.

 

Perhaps too many bad experiences on Internet audio fora, where the "cowboys" run wild. I think you're right; folks who've read anything I've posted would know where I'm coming from. And the cowboys... well (I've already encountered one here today)... I won't worry about them. So, I'll cut right to:

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

;-}

 

 

If you agree with "almost all" of my perspectives, maybe I'll say "Just my (and Chris') perspective".

Just kidding.

 

[Teresa]

Chris said "However "Just my perspective of course," or some such really grates. In the back of my mind I'm waiting for it, when will it show up? It's so condescending; and who else's perspective would it be anyway?"

 

My take is it's a self defense mechanism Barry uses to protect himself from those who would twist his "opinion" into a fact so they can attempt to disprove it. It happens to me and others all the time so we use phrases such as IMHO, YMMV, etc. in order to protect ourselves. I have even went to great length to state everything I say or type is my personal opinion and mine alone. It is up to everyone else to form there own opinions, it's not that hard even a dummy like me can.

 

UPDATE OOPS! Looks like Barry responded with much of what I just said while I was typing mine.

 

[Julf]

"Okay, I hope we can agree to disagree."

 

Sure - it's the usual terminology problem. When I talk about harmonic structures I talk about higher-level compositional structure rather than the harmonics of individual sounds. Blame my professor a long time back - he was the world authority on the semiotics of Sibelius

 

Yes, harmonics of sounds are (mostly) audible, measurable and quantifiable. Harmonic structures in a complex composition are a purely mental construct. We can measure the timing and pitch of the tones, and post theories about the structural language the composer was using, but unfortunately there is no semiotic-meaning-o-meter.

 

[Mark Powell]

Its all in the terminology. I saw a UFO the other day. Yes, in the daytime, so it wasn't just lights. As it came closer, I identified it as an Airbus A380, a type of flying object I had not seen before. But initially it was definitely unidentified, flying, and an object. It had 'Emirates' written on the side.

 

 

 

[Mark Powell]

Lately even more so, mainly because of some of the crazy things I have read, here and elsewhere.

 

But I have never used 'measurements' to buy audio. Some while setting it up, yes. Such as 'bit perfect' which is definitely a measurement of sorts.

 

[sandyk]

"mainly because of some of the crazy things I have read, here and elsewhere."

 

Things like splicing 4.8V battery supplies into USB leads perhaps ? (grin)

 

Kind Regards

Alex

 

 

P.S.

All in good fun!

 

[Mark Powell]

It was about using clean battery power rather than using possibly noisy USB power for an S/PDIF converter that had no power supply of its own. That's not crazy. Even if you think it is, I was only crazy for the half hour it took. I did not then have to 'believe' it for the rest of my life I don't even have to keep the battery charged, which might imply ongoing 'belief' as it was only a test on a setup I no longer use.

 

[sandyk]

Mark

That's not crazy. I have been using a very low noise, low Z external +5V PSU for some time now.

Regards

Alex

P.S.

I'm mainly into home made cables too.

 

[Paul R]

Some folks invest the price of a small home in their audio systems, which is beyond anything I am comfortable or able to do right now. These folks pretty obviously enjoy their systems, and I believe hear something the rest of us are afraid to hear.

 

I think though, in some ways, they are viewed - with much justification - as the ultimate audiophiles. Certainly they are the guys who get featured on the lifestyles of the rich and famous entertainment shows. And they are often much envied by those shows' audience.

 

Still, I don't think that profile is a good fit for most audiophiles, and sometimes does a disservice. Not that I am knocking the guys with ultra fine and very expensive systems, but how many people would mortgage their home for Solution amps, or Rockport speakers?

 

Probably not many, and the perception that any "true" audiophile would is as false and misleading as anything else I have ever heard about a group of people. Like any group, we have people in every socio-economic level, and I don't think the price of the toys, in an absolute sense, defines an audiophile at all.

 

Paul

 

 

[elcorso]

I have a MD close friend, very good in his profession, but when his daugther got cancer he went also to 'natural medicine' and not only chemotherapy, 'just in case'.

 

I know, mind power, et al. But what we are? Human beings and not computers, and/or not a mix of minerals and proteins (plus water).

 

Subjetivist discovers and create new things. Steve Jobs wasn't a computer engineer. Nor Jules Verne, Leonardo Da Vinci, etc. either.

 

I love this Leonardo's quote: "It had long since come to my attention that people of accomplishment rarely sat back and let things happen to them. They went out and happened to things."

 

Objetivist refuse everything regarding new theories and defends the existent ones.

 

Since I began in this forum I'm biassed, and still are, by the IBM old slogan "Think Different", if not, I'll remain part of the big masses, without a chance to improve nothing, or stay seated believing everything is prefect as it is right now

 

The big problem, to me, is It's almost impossible to make a decent objetivist ABX test, suggested every day here and another music forums, since each test will be subjetivist, as the whole (or a big part) of our humanity is.

 

In my particluar case the word "impossible" is a challenge, and never a fence. Also the name "crazy" is not an offense, but a compliment.

 

Carpe Musica

 

Roch

 

PS/ I'm no comparing my self to Leonardo, but if I have the choice, I would like to be his pen, than the fly bothering him.