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    Reality Quest: Going to Extremes with the Taiko Audio SGM Extreme (Part 3 of 5)

    • Part 1 - Introduction and Digital Audio Optimization Foundations (Link)
    • Part 2 - Enter the Extreme (Link)
    • Part 3 - First Impressions and Basic Configuration
    • Part 4 - Tweaking Up the Extreme (Link)
    • Part 5 - Extended Listening Impressions, Learnings, and Conclusions (Link)

     

     

    In Part 1 I shared some of my experiences and learnings in digital audio optimization and how that foundation brought me to the Taiko Audio SGM Extreme, a true Summit-Fi digital music server from Taiko Guru Emile Bok.

     

    In Part 2, I reviewed in detail the very impressive specifications, build quality, and design details for the Extreme, and how all the pieces come together for a world class digital music server.

     

    In this Part 3 of my review of the Taiko Audio SGM Extreme, I fire the beast up for a first listen, and look at the impact of various out of the box system configurations and settings.

     


    Listening Impressions


    Out of the gate, I wanted to see what the Extreme could do with no special tweaks or advantages (generic USB cable, cheap ethernet cable going through a couple cheap switches to my router, plugged into a power strip and a random power outlet with all my other AV equipment, no vibration isolation, etc). I wanted to establish a baseline, then incrementally introduce system optimizations to see what impact they have. I was also keen on hearing how a “stock” Extreme with no OCD advantages compares with my reference NUC music server setup.

     

    After cajoling my daughter and partner out of their rooms with chocolate, I imposed on them to help me lift the Extreme into its initial home:

     

    Taiko Audio SGM Extreme System.jpg


    From left to right: 

     

    • Voxativ 9.87 speakers with 4D drivers (104dB sensitivity) sitting on a Voxativ Pi bass units
    • A stock NUC7i7DNKE in standard case with consumer RAM running Audiolinux in RAM, with Roon server on an Optane drive
    • Paul Hynes SR4 power supply powering a SOtM tX-USBultra Special Edition USB regenerator at 12V
    • An Uptone Audio UltraCap LPS 1.2 power supply powering an (not pictured) Uptone Audio EtherREGEN ethernet regenerator, with Cat 8 cables to the server and endpoint NUCs
    • A battery powered (PowerAdd Pilot Pro2) NUC7i7DNKE in a fanless Akasa case with wide temperature industrial Apacer RAM running Euphony in RAM (sometimes running HQPlayer Embedded connecting to my NUC Roon server, and sometimes Stylus + HQPlayer in a one box solution), booted from an Optane drive
    • A Monoprice USB SlimRun optical USB extender cable and Uptone Audio USPCB connecting my endpoint NUC to a SOtM tX-USBultra Special Edition, and a Sablon Audio 2020 USB cable connecting the SOtM tX-USBultra Special Edition to my Chord DAVE DAC
    • A Chord DAVE DAC on a Taiko Audio Daiza panzerholz vibration isolation base (more on those later)
    • A very intimidating and imposing Taiko Audio SGM Extreme (on a Pottery Barn towel) with generic power, USB, and cheap Cat 5 network connectivity to the generic switch and wall ethernet for my media console
    • My audio equipment is powered by a pair of dedicated 30A circuits (one for DAC and Voxativ bass units, one for NUC digital chain), each with their own Topaz ultra low capacitance isolation transformers, with Pangea AC-9 and AC-14 power cords (the LPS 1.2 is always mains disconnected, so I have its SMPS charging supply plugged into the normal house power outlet)
    • Back and forth between Voxativ Ampeggio speaker cables and Iconoclast SPTPC speaker cables directly connecting the Chord DAVE to the Voxativ 9.87’s
    • In my bedroom closet, I have AT&T fiber to my home (TIDAL for streaming), and a Mac Mini (stock) as a file server with my music library

     

     

    My Roon server NUC has some local content on the Optane drive, and mounts my music library from my Mac Mini file server. I configured HQPlayer with the sinc-M filter, upsampling to PCM to 16fs (705/768kHz), mimicking what I had when I had a Chord Blu2 then a Chord Hugo mScaler.

     


    First Impressions – Straight out of the box


    After powering on the unit for a couple hours, I connected it to my DAC and quickly set up Roon for TIDAL (no music library, no HQPlayer, Redbook quality lossless direct to DAVE) just to do a quick test of whether things were working.

     

    Right off the bat, I was struck by the remarkable presence and clarity I was hearing, even without the benefit of 1M tap upscaling. This is by far the best I’ve ever heard DAVE without mScaler, and is in many ways superior to what I’m used to hearing even with 1M tap upscaling (for background on Chord’s Hugo mScaler upsampler, see Rajiv’s excellent review of the Chord TT2 and Hugo mScaler combo).

     

    The sense of speed and precision is unbelievable, even without the timing and transient benefits I’m accustomed to with 1M taps upsampling. There is a tangible physicality to music, particularly from voices and string instruments. Edges are just faster and much more controlled than I’m accustomed to, which is making everything feel so present and in the room.

     

    Thankfully, this isn’t some sort of false sense of detail. In the past I’ve noted that certain kinds of RF and digital noise can cause a false sense of detail at first list, but that quickly gives way to fatigue. That’s definitely not the case here. Music reproduction is so neutral and unencumbered, hyper hyper clean, and without that characteristic sense of digital haze or stress that I associate with RF or digital noise. Soundstage imaging is similarly unstressed, compelling, and comfortably present. Speed and control of the thwack on percussion is quite remarkable. 

     

    Shifting to some favorite performances on shoddy recordings, Shamas-Ud-Doha Bader-Ud-Doja (from “Shahen-Shah” by Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan) is absolutely vivid and present and (incredibly) real! Dynamics off the chart, making any noise in the recording just not matter any more. A glorious performance channeling the angels, brought to vivid tangible life...wow!

     

    Going to some test tracks that I’ve leaned into in the past when doing network optimizations, there is a visceral physical bass sensation on Diana Krall’s The Boulevard of Broken Dreams that I’ve only heard in my NUC reference system with the Uptone Audio EtherREGEN in the chain. Hearing it with no network optimizations at all is a first for me, and makes me wonder how far the Extreme can go with some TLC on the network side.

     

    Hearing how remarkable “Boulevard of Broken Dreams” sounded, I just had to revisit some old favorites. So What on Miles Davis’ “Kind of Blue” brought Bill Evans into the room! From what I’m hearing, I will need to spend a lot of time getting to know Bill Evans all over again. Well no time like the present...it’s Waltz for Debby time! (from the Village Vanguard sessions) Scott LaFaro’s bass is incredibly present, subtle, and confident. I’m almost teary hearing LaFaro play in this way.

     

    Back to another favorite recording, but one where I’m always on edge waiting for playback to break – Fields of Gold by Eva Cassidy (“Nightbird”). Wonderful stuff - that sense of dynamic compression or approaching clipping is WAY diminished. Stressful passages are relaxed and natural. I keep waiting for the recording to break, but it just doesn’t.

     

    Alas, what was going to be a quick 10 minute sound check quickly turned into 2 hours of kid-in-the-candy-store time. Alas2, it is a weeknight and school night, so time to call it a night.

     


    Basic Configuration


    With the weekend upon us, the first order of business was to get the Extreme properly configured. 

     

    After brushing off some Windows command line cobwebs that I thought I would never have to revisit, I kicked off a robocopy (robocopy \\SERVERNAME\media\music d: /MIR) of my music directory on my Mac Mini media server to the local D drive. 6 hours and 4TB and 40,000 songs later, it was time to do a restore of my Roon backup. A quick redirection of audio storage in my restored Roon backup to point at the D drive on the Extreme, and I was ready to move on to HQPlayer Desktop setup.

     


    Upsampling with HQPlayer Desktop


    HQPlayer Desktop installation was straight forward (Taiko does offer to install and configure HQPlayer for you if requested). I installed my license and brought over my favorite settings from my NUC (sinc-M with LNS15 and 16fs target for PCM, sinc-M with DSD7 256+fs with DSD256 target for DSD), and selected the Chord ASIO driver for HQPlayer. I configured an HQPlayer audio device in Roon Server on the Extreme for “localhost” and I was cooking with gas. My final HQPlayer settings on my Extreme are below (more on the HQPlayer tweaking later).

     

    Taiko Audio SGM Extreme System HQPlayer Settings.jpg Taiko Audio SGM Extreme System DSD Source Settings.png

     

     

    As expected, HQPlayer took an already glorious sound and brought back all that mScaled goodness I was missing. For those not familiar with HQPlayer filters, my preference is for the sinc-M filter as being closest to the million tap sinc reconstruction filter in the Hugo mScaler. The 15th order noise shaper to my ear is not quite as engaging as the proprietary WTA filter in the Hugo mScaler, but it is pretty close and very high quality. 

     

    I listen almost exclusively to PCM content (I have found that Chord DACs are able to do much more magic with PCM than DSD). The vast majority of my music is PCM, but when possible, I always try to purchase music in the format it was originally recorded to, so I do have a smattering of DSD in my library. Rather than convert DSD content to PCM in Roon or HQPlayer, I have a preference for DSD content being upsampled to DSD256 in HQPlayer, and letting my Chord DAVE do the DSD to PCM conversion internally. My preferred HQPlayer DSD upsampling settings are pictured above.

     

    warning.jpg

     

     

    One thing to note: when HQPlayer Desktop starts on the Extreme, a page pops up showing that it doesn’t seem to see one of the Extreme CPUs (see above). In checking with Jussi Laako, developer of HQPlayer, apparently this is a Windows-specific restriction with multi-socket logical processors and HQPlayer. As a practical matter, this has been a non-issue for me. There is so much horsepower in the one Xeon CPU that I haven’t had an issue with any of the upsampling I’m doing (<1% CPU utilization for PCM upsampling, and <10% CPU utilization for DSD upsampling).

     

    Sound quality with HQPlayer has been outstanding. Except where indicated below, all my listening tests were done with the above HQPlayer settings.

     


    JPLAY ASIO vs Chord ASIO vs WASAPI Driver


    As I mentioned earlier, the Extreme comes with the standard Windows WASAPI USB driver, as well as a pre-installed and configured JPLAY ASIO driver. In addition, Emile installed the Chord ASIO driver for my Chord DAVE. So which of these drivers sound best?

     

    Each of these drivers have intrinsic capabilities and a characteristic sound. The WASAPI driver is limited to 24/192 output, so not the best match for PCM content being upscaled to 24/768 by HQPlayer, but perfectly good for standard 16/44 content. JPLAY has no limits on PCM output, but is limited to DSD128 for DSD. The Chord ASIO driver has no limits for PCM or DSD to my Chord DAC.

     

    Taiko Audio SGM Extreme JPLAY Settings.jpg

     

     

    JPLAY is interesting in that it has a settings screen with a lot of configurable parameters (the default I received with my Extreme is shown above). For my listening tests, I did not adjust any of these settings (just don’t have confidence that I understand the OS-level tunings that Emile has implemented).

     

    For my initial driver test, I exited HQPlayer to go direct Extreme to Chord DAVE (no upsampling) so I could give the WASAPI driver a fair shake vs JPLAY ASIO and Chord ASIO drivers. To eliminate network influences, I listened to local copies of music on the Extreme (FLAC or ALAC 16/44 content, with some FLAC 24/192 content).

     

    The WASAPI driver was extremely nice, especially compared to what I’m accustomed to pre Extreme (even non-upsampled, this is the best music I’ve ever heard from my system). However the WASAPI driver was consistently slower and flatter and less dynamic than the JPLAY and Chord ASIO drivers.

     

    For example, on the remarkable violin solo at the beginning of movement 4 of Reiner’s Scheherazade, there is a presence and physicality to the violin that is simply next level with the Chord and JPLAY drivers (JPLAY more so than Chord). Each start and stop of the bow is tangible, and the subtlety and intonation of the performance is incredibly vivid and real. When the rest of the orchestra joins in, the Chord ASIO driver gives remarkable detail and transparency to each of the sections and even individual players, but with the JPLAY driver, I am able to hear for the first time individual performances in the orchestra sections. 

     

    That remarkable sense of standing next to Maestro Reiner with the orchestra before you is absolutely intoxicating. I thought I had heard all this remarkable recording and performance could give, but there is so much more beauty and subtlety in these performances to explore and absorb (and to be absorbed by).

     

    With recordings like Organ Prelude (“JS Bach Magnificat” by Dunedin Consort) and O thou tellest good tidings (“Handel: Messiah” by Dunedin Consort) and Fecit potentiam (“Arnesen: Magnificat” by TrondheimSolistene), the sense of the space and depth is remarkable. The cathedral is an integral part of the performance, and the sense of space and being within it is intoxicating. 

     

    Switching to my favorite depth test Four Surround Voices (“The Ultimate Headphone Demonstration Disk” by Chesky), the Chord and JPLAY drivers both have a significantly better sense of depth (including well behind the listener...this is true holographic surround sound), but with the JPLAY driver that sense of space was a touch more relaxed and real.

     

    While transparency is extraordinary with the WASAPI driver, the Chord and JPLAY drivers just take things to a completely different level. I’ve never heard this level of transparency and physicality, especially for complex performances. The WASAPI driver is the best I’ve ever heard (pre Extreme), but it is outclassed by the Chord ASIO and JPLAY ASIO drivers in every possible way (absolutely no contest).

     

    If I were to reflect on what I am hearing, my impression of the change is very similar to what I experienced with my NUC music servers as I introduced RAM boot, and significantly increased the size of the memory buffers for Squeezelite and the ALSA sound driver. Even the WASAPI driver on the Extreme is well beyond what I heard on my NUC, but the sound improvements have a strikingly similar character as I go from WASAPI to Chord to JPLAY. If WASAPI is a 3 (on a scale of 1-10), I would put Chord at 8 and JPLAY at 9. Both significantly better than the WASPI driver, but the JPLAY slightly outpacing the Chord to my ear (mainly in  transparency). Consistently, the Chord ASIO driver opened up the dimensionality of the recording (holographic) with remarkable spatial resolution and subtlety, and the JPLAY driver taking things to simply the next level (just effortless to be in the space of the performance). 

     

    Putting away the WASAPI driver for the remainder of my testing, I then switched to Chord ASIO vs JPLAY ASIO with HQPlayer running (you can select the driver from the Device drop down in the Out Device Settings section of the HQPlayer settings above).

     

    With HQPlayer, the overall level of detail and sense of space is taken up another order of magnitude. All that amazing sense of speed and coherence and detail that those of us that have been addicted to mScaled music on Chord DACs have come to love is now elevating what I’m hearing to an incredible place. Even what I was hearing with no upsampling was well beyond anything I’ve ever heard in my system, but now things are elevated even more still.

     

    The JPLAY advantage for transparency, more relaxed detail, and naturalness is amplified even more with HQPlayer in the chain, at least with PCM content. Switching to some DSD test tracks, I have a slight preference for the HQPlayer with the Chord ASIO driver as output. I can’t say for sure, but I suspect this is due to the limitation of the JPLAY ASIO driver to DSD128 output.

     

    For those that are doing similar tinkering with their Extreme, please remember that these are three drivers talking to the same device (WASAPI, JPLAY ASIO, Chord ASIO), and two applications talking to these drivers (Roon and HQPlayer). There are lots of opportunities when rapidly swapping back and forth to get into a state where you have conflicts that block being able to connect to your DAC. If you get stuck, disable audio devices in Roon, quit HQPlayer, quit Roon Server, and bring things back up. 

     

    Based on what I’m hearing, I’ve settled on JPLAY in HQPlayer as my primary listening audio device in Roon for PCM content. When listening to DSD content, I switch HQPlayer to use the Chord ASIO driver. In this configuration, I play music exclusively through Roon to HQPlayer, but change the settings in HQPlayer between JPLAY (PCM content) and the Chord ASIO driver (DSD content) as needed, although I’m delighted to listen to either JPLAY or Chord ASIO drivers in HQPlayer for either PCM or DSD content (differences are small).

     


    Choice of Music Location


    So how about the choice of where to put your music library? As I mentioned previously, my Extreme has 8TB of local PCIe M.2 storage, so I was able to copy my entire 4TB music library from my Mac Mini media server to the Extreme. This allows me to compare the exact same source files local on the Extreme, vs via an SMB share on my home network from my Mac Mini, vs (what I hope is) the same content streaming from Tidal (unoptimized network configuration in all cases).

     

    With PCM content, HQPlayer, the JPLAY driver, and an unoptimized copper ethernet connection, I found that local content on the Extreme had consistently and notably better dynamics and speed than the exact same content over the network from my Mac Mini server. 

     

    Where I could find Tidal content that I was confident was from the same mastering as my redbook content (my content was typically ripped from CD for these tests), TIDAL was consistently a significant step down in dynamics and speed vs what I was hearing locally or over my LAN. That being said, I obviously can’t control for different masterings on TIDAL vs what I have locally on my systems, but the impact was consistent across the tracks that I auditioned.

     

    A reminder that the above impressions were using a completely unoptimized network. I will revisit these tests in the context of a highly optimized network and internet connection in Part 4 of this review.

     


    One Box Extreme Solution vs Extreme as Roon Endpoint


    For this test, I closed HQPlayer on the Extreme and played local content using the Extreme Roon Server (one box solution), and compared Extreme as the world’s most expensive Roon endpoint, with music being played with local content from my NUC Roon Server (generic NUC running Audiolinux in memory).

     

    The network path between the NUC and the Extreme for these tests was: NUC -> Cable Matters Cat 8 ethernet cable -> EtherREGEN (LPS 1.2 powered) -> generic Cat 5 -> generic switch (SMPS powered) -> generic Cat 5 -> Extreme.

     

    Interestingly, the one box solution on the Extreme had notably better dynamics and speed than the same content being played from a NUC-based Roon server to the Extreme as a Roon endpoint (the Extreme advantage isn’t just an endpoint phenomenon). Compared to the one box Extreme solution playing content from my Mac Mini over the network to the Extreme, using the NUC as the Roon server with local content did have better dynamics and speed. Clearly, the Mac Mini in my test setup can not keep up with local content, whether directly to the Extreme, or indirectly through a NUC Roon server to the Extreme. This test was interesting though to give a qualitative sense how much music storage vs Roon server vs Roon endpoint contributes to the aggregate performance of the one box solution on the Extreme.

     

    Note: If you do try this at home, a reminder to disable the audio endpoint on your non-Extreme Roon server when you are done. As I was experimenting with this configuration, I created some instabilities where I intermittently couldn’t use the JPLAY driver on the Extreme (“Unable to connect to audio device”). It turned out that on my NUC Roon server, I still had the JPLAY driver Roon endpoint on the Extreme selected (but not being used). Apparently, that was enough to occasionally lock up the JPLAY driver on my Extreme and prevent me from connecting to the audio device via JPLAY. Disabling the endpoint on the NUC Roon server cleaned everything up.

     


    Stock Extreme vs Reference NUCs


    When I first started this evaluation of the Extreme, I had anticipated spending considerable time doing a detailed comparison between the Extreme and my reference NUC system. Alas, that plan only lasted a couple minutes before I realized how meaningless it would be. 

     

    There is simply no comparison to be drawn. As much as I adore my NUC setup and as much joy and true wonder it has given me, there is simply no aspect of it (other than size and price) that is notable when compared to the Extreme. The Extreme, in all audio aspects, is orders of magnitude beyond what I had thought was a pretty damn good system. 

    The Extreme is quite simply a Next Gen Tesla Roadster in a Gen 1 Prius world.

     

    So all this goodness and wonder is straight out of the box. How does the Extreme scale as you give attention to power and network and USB and other ins and outs? It turns out it scales remarkably well, which I will dive into in Part 4 (LINK) of this review.
     

     

     

     

    Community Star Ratings and Reviews

     

    I encourage those who have experience with the Taiko Audio SGM Extreme to leave a star rating and quick review on our new Polestar platform.

     

     




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    2 minutes ago, bbosler said:

     

    that was Bob

     

    Woops... Thanks for the clarification. Read the name too quickly. Lots of "b" in the name :-).

     

    2 minutes ago, bbosler said:

    So that answers the question.. which despite all of the fun we all may be having playing around with this stuff and the idea of "wasted money" may not be the exact way to say it, if USB has no issues as you say then anybody spending money to solve a non-existent issue is by definition,  spending money they don't have to to achieve the same result.

     

     

    Surely I hope nobody here is "spending money they don't have" whether on $26k computers or $100k speakers!

     

    2 minutes ago, bbosler said:

     If USB has no issues, then one way to say it would be they are wasting money to solve this non-existent issue. If there isn't an engineering issue, then this highly engineered product is not needed.

     

    We can still spend money on machines and upgrades for one reason or another. Who said it had to be about USB issues?!

     

    2 minutes ago, bbosler said:

    BTW I'm not arguing. I'm asking legitimate questions that I obviously can't answer or I would be making statements, not asking. 

     

     

    Right, which is where I started... My question is why does anyone think there is an issue with the USB interface (in regard to fidelity) in 2020 that ostensibly needs to be fixed in engineering? A concrete example that can be reproduced so that an explanation can be found and "fixed" would surely help.

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    9 minutes ago, ray-dude said:

    @Archimago has done tremendous work to measure and identify any differences (to say the least). I read and learn from everything he posts on his blog, and always have much to reflect on and reconcile.  Yet, I clearly hear differences (and much more importantly for me, I react differently to the music).

     

    I accept all of @Archimago's findings 100% at face value.  The biggest challenge for me during all this whole journey on digital optimization (which actually started with a Raspberry Pi built with his recipe!) is "how the hell can I be hearing any of this?"  At best I have the smallest shred of a hypothesis, based on inference and loose correlation and desperation, but it has been helpful to me to at least have something as I've stumbled Mr Magoo like across this digital optimization minefield. 

     

    My sincere thanks and respect to folks like @Archimago who state the obvious plain truth ("there is no possible difference") in a way that informs the conversation, and do incredible work to understand why that is or why it may not be.  

     

     

    Good writing on this series @ray-dude with great pictures.

     

    Hope you enjoy the music and have lots of fun with all the processing you can do with it! In time you should really give DSP room correction a try if not already. You've got plenty of power under the hood  and I can imagine you'll have fun playing with filter designs and such :-). Furthermore, over the next few years, I'll be transitioning my multi-TB server machine to full SSD like what you've done here - I'm sure you're enjoying the speed very much and well ahead of the curve for most of us with large libraries!

     

    To be honest, I would not be too direct and say "there is no possible difference"; certainly there are always "possible" differences we can test and reject if not substantiated. At times, I have certainly run into differences in some of what I have tested and I am generally open to hear of issues and test out myself if I can. It's just that I suspect most issues are idiosyncratic and related to specific devices or software. This is why I ask for "concrete examples" where people can specify the equipment and the issue itself. I think this is more useful than blanket statements like suggesting there is some significant flaw in the (USB) interface generally...

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    2 minutes ago, Archimago said:

    In time you should really give DSP room correction a try if not already.


    Absolutely! I have single driver speakers, so i have a bigger need than most.  This is actually next in the pandemic projects queue and should be a lot of fun.
     

    I’m hoping to spend some quality pandemic time with @pkane2001’s DISTORT package as well. I’d really like to understand what’s audible and not audible in a more quantitative way. 

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    1 hour ago, Archimago said:

     

    Quote

     If USB has no issues, then one way to say it would be they are wasting money to solve this non-existent issue. If there isn't an engineering issue, then this highly engineered product is not needed.

     

    We can still spend money on machines and upgrades for one reason or another. Who said it had to be about USB issues?!

     

     

     

    "Who said it had to be about USB issues?!"

     

     

    to put it very simply, since the sole job of the server is to deliver packets of data to the DAC over USB, and these servers deliver the same data yet sound different, how can it be about anything but USB ? If, as you say, USB has no issues, then all USB servers running the same bit perfect software must sound the same.

     

    Perhaps we are talking past each other so I will try to clarify my point. First a few givens or at least what I believe to be givens after reading the review to this point. 

     

    1. the method of delivering data to the DAC has not changed (USB)
    2. the DAC and speakers have not changed
    3. As far as we know the new server is not changing the data in any way i.e. the packets of data coming from the new server are the same as the packets of data from previous servers. I say this because Ray says one of his goals is bit perfect and he is using the same software.

     

    so if all of that is true, and this Extreme server sounds significantly different than previous servers, the only thing that could have possibly changed is how this new server delivers these packets to the DAC. Therefore, USB must have some inherent issues that this server deals with differently than the previous servers. I am open to the possibility I am missing something, but I see no other possibility.

     

    which brings me full circle to how I got started on this. If different USB servers sound different, how would the DAVE sound via the spdif inputs from the Extreme compared to the USB? This far into the game why not try an obvious, at least to me, possible way to improve things by trying spdif.

     

    I do agree on the suggestion for DSP. I worked with Mitch Barnett who configured some Audiolense filters for me that I use inside Roon to great effect.

     

     

     

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    1 hour ago, ray-dude said:

    I clearly hear differences (and much more importantly for me, I react differently to the music).

     

    I accept ..........the obvious plain truth ("there is no possible difference")

     

     

     

    I  accept that you hear a difference (although I obviously have no way to confirm this) but cannot reconcile it with other assertions that "there is no possible difference". The way I see it, you are hearing a difference or not, and if not, it is explained by other means such as expectation/confirmation bias.

     

    All I would humbly suggest is to be initially less concerned with what you're supposed to hear or not hear. Bias can work both ways and there should be room for doubt in either direction but only you know if you "react differently to the music"

     

     

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    16 minutes ago, bbosler said:

     

     

     

    "Who said it had to be about USB issues?!"

     

     

    to put it very simply, since the sole job of the server is to deliver packets of data to the DAC over USB, and these servers deliver the same data yet sound different, how can it be about anything but USB ? If, as you say, USB has no issues, then all USB servers running the same bit perfect software must sound the same.

     

    Perhaps we are talking past each other so I will try to clarify my point. First a few givens or at least what I believe to be givens after reading the review to this point. 

     

    1. the method of delivering data to the DAC has not changed (USB)
    2. the DAC and speakers have not changed
    3. As far as we know the new server is not changing the data in any way i.e. the packets of data coming from the new server are the same as the packets of data from previous servers. I say this because Ray says one of his goals is bit perfect and he is using the same software.

     

    so if all of that is true, and this Extreme server sounds significantly different than previous servers, the only thing that could have possibly changed is how this new server delivers these packets to the DAC. Therefore, USB must have some inherent issues that this server deals with differently than the previous servers. I am open to the possibility I am missing something, but I see no other possibility.

     

    which brings me full circle to how I got started on this. If different USB servers sound different, how would the DAVE sound via the spdif inputs from the Extreme compared to the USB? This far into the game why not try an obvious, at least to me, possible way to improve things by trying spdif.

     

    I do agree on the suggestion for DSP. I worked with Mitch Barnett who configured some Audiolense filters for me that I use inside Roon to great effect.

     

     

     

     

    There is a post from Taiko Audio about this topic::

     

    https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-114#post-617806

     

    Matt

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    2 hours ago, bbosler said:

     

    So that answers the question.. which despite all of the fun we all may be having playing around with this stuff and the idea of "wasted money" may not be the exact way to say it, if USB has no issues as you say then anybody spending money to solve a non-existent issue is by definition,  spending money they don't have to to achieve the same result. If USB has no issues, then one way to say it would be they are wasting money to solve this non-existent issue. If there isn't an engineering issue, then this highly engineered product is not needed.

     

    BTW I'm not arguing. I'm asking legitimate questions that I obviously can't answer or I would be making statements, not asking.

     

    Could it be that the server is more than just a USB interface and there are other components to consider. Some of those other components are to optimize the implementation of the USB interface for audio.

     

    USB to my ears originally sounded crap. Not so these days.

     

    Also, don't forget that to make CDs sound good back in the 90's it took IMO very expensive gear like the Levinsons using AES/EBU or spdif or optical ST glass.

     

    All I am saying is that USB is not unique in needing to be well implemented and it has been a journey.

     

    The cost is a choice someone makes to get cutting edge gear but I am not saying you always get what you pay for or that there is not a law of diminishing returns. Whether its worth it is subjective.

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    Nice write-up.  I had to re-read your set up several times over to fully realize that you are going DAC direct into high sensitivity speakers using just the preamp in the DAC and no amp?  That's certainly interesting - though quite unusual.

     

     

     

     

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    7 hours ago, matthias said:

     

    thanks for the link. I'm not going to read all 200 or so pages of it, but the page you linked points directly to what I am saying. from Taiko who apparently agree with my point i.e. USB is not simply USB, different implementations yield different results.

     

     

    Quote

    A big difference with server technology is the interface. These transport/dac stacks all use/used AES or a proprietary variation on that to transport I2S between them. It may come as no surprise that the AES or SPDIF output we can optionally fit into the Extreme sounds closer to a CD transport than USB or Ethernet. Generally speaking it can give you a somewhat softer / more laidback presentation. But USB or Ethernet are the interfaces of the future. On the DAC end these are not always very well executed, as strange as it may sound it's a different technology then Digital to Analogue conversion so it's often just fitted because manufacturers have to, but not always well implemented. 

     

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    2 minutes ago, bbosler said:

    thanks for the link. I'm not going to read all 200 or so pages of it, but the page you linked points directly to what I am saying. from Taiko who apparently agree with my point i.e. USB is not simply USB, different implementations yield different results.

     

    Welcome,

    BTW, when you read the thread completely you get a lot of useful info about digital audio.

     

    Agree, it is all about implementation, every detail matters and because of that the Extreme is superior.

     

    Now it seems to be that USB is getting ahead of SPDIF or AES. Even Mike Moffat from Schiit Audio who so far did not like USB now prefers the SQ of USB over the other interfaces. Go figure!

     

    Matt

     

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    9 hours ago, bbosler said:

    "Who said it had to be about USB issues?!"

     

    to put it very simply, since the sole job of the server is to deliver packets of data to the DAC over USB, and these servers deliver the same data yet sound different, how can it be about anything but USB ? If, as you say, USB has no issues, then all USB servers running the same bit perfect software must sound the same.

     

    Hmmmm... As someone who has observed the discussions over the years among those who base decisions almost exclusively on hearing, isn't it true that "everything matters"? You're talking to a "more objective" guy so you can imagine what I might say... However, since this series of posts is in the domain of subjectivism, I don't think we can be too reductionistic and focus only on the USB port.

     

    9 hours ago, bbosler said:

    Perhaps we are talking past each other so I will try to clarify my point. First a few givens or at least what I believe to be givens after reading the review to this point. 

     

    1. the method of delivering data to the DAC has not changed (USB)
    2. the DAC and speakers have not changed
    3. As far as we know the new server is not changing the data in any way i.e. the packets of data coming from the new server are the same as the packets of data from previous servers. I say this because Ray says one of his goals is bit perfect and he is using the same software.

     

    Yes. Those are givens.

     

    9 hours ago, bbosler said:

    so if all of that is true, and this Extreme server sounds significantly different than previous servers, the only thing that could have possibly changed is how this new server delivers these packets to the DAC. Therefore, USB must have some inherent issues that this server deals with differently than the previous servers. I am open to the possibility I am missing something, but I see no other possibility.

     

    Well, I assume the belief here is that the Extreme's heavy and thick case reduces external RF interference from getting in. Maybe the way the unit as designed has reduced RF/EMI emission that could affect the DAC. Maybe the optical network itself influences the sound regardless of bit-perfection due to noise. Maybe it's the tweaked OS that changes some of the above. Perhaps the power infrastructure has something to do with this. Perhaps having 2 CPUs and process affinity will affect some of the above and again overall noise.

     

    These are some of the attribution theories typically put forth, right?

     

    9 hours ago, bbosler said:

    which brings me full circle to how I got started on this. If different USB servers sound different, how would the DAVE sound via the spdif inputs from the Extreme compared to the USB? This far into the game why not try an obvious, at least to me, possible way to improve things by trying spdif.

     

    Yeah, I agree with this. Certainly worth listening to the DAVE's S/PDIF (coax, TosLink, XLR) if there's a way although limitations like very high samplerate would be unavailable beyond 96kHz for the XLR and TosLink based on the DAVE specs. Also no DSD.

     

    9 hours ago, bbosler said:

    I do agree on the suggestion for DSP. I worked with Mitch Barnett who configured some Audiolense filters for me that I use inside Roon to great effect.

     

     

    Sounds good.

     

    Ultimately, like I said, I appreciate the hard work being done here and can enjoy the content. I hope @ray-dude has fun with this "extreme" project and can say at the end of the adventure that he has accomplished what he set out to do with full satisfaction.

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    14 hours ago, ray-dude said:


    Absolutely! I have single driver speakers, so i have a bigger need than most.  This is actually next in the pandemic projects queue and should be a lot of fun.
     

    I’m hoping to spend some quality pandemic time with @pkane2001’s DISTORT package as well. I’d really like to understand what’s audible and not audible in a more quantitative way. 

    I highly recommend working with @mitchco. He worked wonders with my room. And, the beauty is you can enable/disable it with the tap of a finger. No swapping out cables to see if A is better than B for any type of music. 

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    17 hours ago, all300b said:

    Nice write-up.  I had to re-read your set up several times over to fully realize that you are going DAC direct into high sensitivity speakers using just the preamp in the DAC and no amp?  That's certainly interesting - though quite unusual.

     

     

    Close!  The Chord DAC's actually don't have preamps.  Volume control and input control is done digitally before the analog conversion stage.  Analog conversion stage is a very small component count amp/analog stage combined.  The incredible transparency of Chord DACs at least partially comes from this topology.  I go direct from DAC to single driver speakers (no pre amp, no amp, no cross overs, only wire between analog output stage and speaker coil) to try and preserve as much of this remarkable transparency as possible.

     

    Decidedly unique, but once I heard Chord DACs drive single high efficiency speakers direct, it turned my audio world upside down, and I've never looked back.

     

     

     

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    Ray, quick question from this section (part 3): why show the DSD Source settings from HQPlayer, as those are only relevant for DSD-to-PCM conversion (which I don't think you do).  Right?

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    14 hours ago, ted_b said:

    Ray, quick question from this section (part 3): why show the DSD Source settings from HQPlayer, as those are only relevant for DSD-to-PCM conversion (which I don't think you do).  Right?

     

    Absolutely correct Ted.  Since I talked about preferring DSD->DSD (vs DSD -> PCM) with HQP+Extreme+DAVE, I thought it worthwhile to show the settings I was using in the comparison.  

     

    With the main settings with the [source] Default Output Mode, those DSD Source settings aren't used at all

     

    Thank you for the clarifying question (I know how much I struggled to figure out all the HQP settings...newbies to HQP can ignore that panel if they are using the same main settings that I posted)

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    I recently compared the USB output of a LattePanda Delta with a NUC 8i3BEH and the NUC was noticeably worse (both in fanless cases but not linear power supplies). I know you've got a lot clocking and cleaning on the USB line, but the NUC does seem to be particularly poor in that area.

     

    Interestingly I also find the stock audio out on the LattePanda to be cleaner than the audio out on the NUC, so I wonder if it is just a poorer overall motherboard design.

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