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    The Computer Audiophile

    Thoughts On Immersive Audio

     

     

    My immersive audio system is fully installed and for the last several days, I've been listening for nearly 10 hours per day. It has been a transcendent audio experience to say the least. It's something that I hope everyone who loves music can experience sooner rather than later. By experience, I mean on a real immersive 7.1.4 or similar audio system. Sure, headphones are "capable" of playing immersive audio, as is an Atmos sound bar, but there's no substitute for the real thing. Much more on system setup and sound quality coming soon. 

     

    In addition to being elated with immersive audio, I'm very happy to see much enthusiasm for the topic by members of the Audiophile Style community. Some are reasonably skeptical, while others are full steam ahead. The best part for me is that everyone appears to be interested in the who, what, when, where, why, and how of immersive audio. I love educating people on how to squeeze more enjoyment out of our wonderful hobby. It's what I did when I started the site back in November, 2007 and it's what I continue to do today. 

     

    When I started digging into immersive audio, I really had no idea if people would come along for the journey. However, I'm not one of those guys who can give the people what they want, because they want it. By that I mean, I have to write for myself, about what interests me and what makes me excited, and I hope that others enjoy what I do and that it's helpful to them. The great part about this immersive audio journey is that my enthusiasm for it has only increased with every passing day, and I hope that translates into what I write and moves others to see and hear what I see and hear. 

     

    I don't consider myself an expert on anything, but I eat, sleep, and breathe this stuff, researching, talking to people in the industry (HiFi and Music), and rolling my sleeves up, getting my hands dirty with it to get personal experience. Here are some thoughts on immersive audio, with respect to our own world of high fidelity. 

     


    One - Classical

     

    I've listened to more classical music in the last week, than I have in the last several years combined. The sole reason is immersive audio. The music hasn't changed, but the presentation has. There is no better genre for immersive audio than classical music. One reason is that no genre has dedicated venues such as the Berliner Philharmonie and the Wiener Musikverein, which play such a large role in the sound of the performance. Immersive audio has the ability to place the listener in any seat in the house, to hear the musicians, the attack, sustain, decay, release, and the reverberations of the space exactly as they sounded during the performance. Call me crazy, but I have no interest in hearing the reverberations and bad echos from a Pearl Jam show at Target Center in Minneapolis. 

     

    One example of immersive audio recreating a concert venue impeccably, can be heard on the album John Williams, The Berlin Concert. The second track, titled Olympic Fanfare and Theme, has a little venue noise before the track starts. It's only about 2 seconds before the track, but it's enough venue information to give the listener really good placement cues. Once the music starts, and one can hear all the music and reverb, it's fantastic, but even the tiny two second clip is good enough to create the ultimate illusion. This is similar in a way to playing an album recorded on tape. When one hits play, tape his is often present before the music starts. With immersive audio, the venue is often present when there is no music playing. 

     

    Last night, I opened the Berlin Philharmonic's app on AppleTV, to see the following message.

     

    IMG_5304.png


    IMG_5305.pngWhat a pleasant surprise. I knew this was in the works, but thought it may have slipped through the cracks given the length of time it took to release it. I started watching a concert, clicked on the little gear icon to select the audio presentation, and saw Immersive Audio (Dolby Atmos) as an option. What surprised me most, was that my ten year old daughter, who wasn't paying much attention to what I was doing, asked if we could listen to the concert in Atmos in my listening room! What a shock! Immersive audio has piqued her interest. 

     

    I know this is one small anecdotal story, but my experience listening to classical and my daughter's interest in something from the Berlin Philharmonic, are two things that have not happened until now. This is good for music, musicians, storied venues, and consumers among many others. 

     

    Also note, Deutsche Grammophon is leading the charge into immersive audio, with tons of releases in Atmos. I wish more titles were released on Blu-ray so I could rip the lossless TrueHD content, but I'll take the best version I can get over nothing. Every new DG release I see is available in high resolution stereo and Dolby Atmos on Apple Music. It's fantastic to see DG embrace immersive audio. My wallet is much thinner because of all the Blu-ray Discs I've ordered lately, but in the grand scheme of high end audio, the price is peanuts. Well worth it.


    A couple lossless TrueHD Atmos albums I've been listening to lately:

     

    Herbert von Karajan - Ludwig Van Beethoven: 9 Symphonies
    Herbert von Karajan - Sibelius Complete Recordings on Deutsche Grammophon

     

     

    beethoven.jpg sibelius.jpg

     

     

     

    Two - Who, What, When, Where


    Let's take these out of the traditional order, and start with the "WHAT." 

     

    What. Immersive Audio has a loose definition because of the range of devices on which it can be played. From headphones, to soundbars, to discrete 12 channel systems, it can be played on all of them. However, based on my research I'd say that immersive audio is any music that has discrete height information embedded into the recording. It's distinctly separate from the playback hardware or software. Atmos music and Auro 3D have height channels embedded into the recordings, whereas traditional 5.1 7.1, and DTS MA HD don't. The height channels really matter for an immersive experience. 

     

    Spatial Audio is Apple's addition to Dolby Atmos and is only employed when listening to Atmos music while using specific Apple headphones. Spatial Audio enables listeners to use head tracking that leaves the music stationary even when one's head turns.

     

    When. Atmos is nothing new, but Atmos music is fairly new. Apple really kicked things into high gear for consumers in 2021 when it announced support for Atmos music. 


    Where. Immersive audio isn't everywhere yet, but Apple Music somewhat forced Tidal and Amazon to follow. Dolby and Dirac also announced a partnership to bring Atmos music to cars, this past week. The discrete channels are usually present in cars and Dirac is very good with DSP, so I call this a win. 

     

    P.S. The content exists, why not offer it to consumers? Qobuz, are you listening :~)


    Who. "Everyone" is either releasing immersive audio, mixing immersive audio, or waiting in line to do both. According to Dolby, in 2020 there were 30 studios equipped to mix in Atmos. Now there are almost 600. That's a 1,900% increase. Many mixing studios have months long waiting lists to re-mix A List content for Dolby Atmos. 

     

    A quick look at Apple Music's Spatial Audio page shows a glimpse at the high number and quality of Atmos releases. By quality I don't mean sound quality, but A List artists and albums rather than another Scottish Nose Whistle album, us audiophiles are accustomed to. Every week more Atmos music releases come out, by more current and legacy artists. Pearl Jam had its debut album Ten, its fourth album No Code, and its latest album Gigaton remixed for Atmos. This is one example among many that shows immersive audio is real this time. 

     

    Note: After listening to No Code on my immersive system, it's the only way I want to listen to it going forward. Much more on this coming soon.

     

    I encourage everyone to browse the Atmos releases here.

     

    With respect to who is listening to immersive audio and the popular questions surrounding who will actually install an immersive system, let's take a step back. The mass market already has many solutions for this in the form of headphones, soundbars, and packaged systems capable of reproducing immersive audio. Not the height of living, but the install base is gigantic. Then we come to those of us who have spent more on cables than cars, installed special ground rods outside, taken over complete sections of our houses in pursuit of our passion, and the list goes on forever. It's funny to hear these same people, tell me that an immersive system is a bridge too far for people. To that I say, where there's a will, there's a way. If the end result is the ultimate sonic illusion, I think we should stop thinking about who will actually do this and start thinking about how to do it. 

     


    Three - Why

     

    As people with brains, we want to know why immersive audio is being released. We believe it will give us a view into the future viability of the format and it will tell us more about it than all the other items. The "WHY" is the foundation, and a solid foundation is absolutely necessary. 

    Audiophiles wondering about the drivers of immersive audio may think it would be best if the developers were altruistic audiophiles themselves, who saw this as a pursuit for the ultimate in sound quality. However, we've been down this road before and we know it's a dead end. It's better to have the mainstream driving immersive audio for whatever reason, because then it isn't a niche looking for marketshare or trying to stay afloat financially. Once something is mass market, the high end can perfect it and make it as good as possible. For example, listen to some of what Morten Lindberg from the 2L label is producing in immersive formats. It's insanely good. The formats of Atmos and Auro 3D are a done deal, and the music is already being perfected. It's time for more hardware manufacturers to get on board. 

     

    Driving the immersive audio push are a number of companies with quarterly numbers to hit and products to sell. I see Apple and virtual reality as a major driver of immersive audio. I also see the record labels smiling because immersive formats, for the most part, have never been released via a purchase model (physical or download). They now have Crown Jewels in their vaults again and can charge a monthly fee for access. 

     

    Change is also a driver of immersive audio. We've had mono, stereo, and many attempts at succeeding formats. For the most part, I believe change is good. It can take things to a new level or make one realize just how much one likes the existing version. In other words, don't fix what isn't broken. However, change doesn't always mean the existing solution is replaced. Supplementing stereo with immersive audio is a change we should all embrace.

     

    No matter the reasons for immersive audio, a gigantic benefit for audiophiles is that we get to enjoy it and we don't have to push it upon the masses. 

     

    I completely understand the more skeptical audiophiles among us. We've been promised the birth of a new audio world in the not to distant past, and have seen countless next-best-things come and go. The reasons why any product exists can help ease ease one's hesitation and accelerate its adoption. That I get. Especially when we're talking about audio components that cost more than we'd like to admit. 

     

    On the other hand, what does it take to convince people that a format is real enough to embrace it? For some of us, it only takes a favorite recording that sounds spectacular. I know people who purchased analog tape rigs in the last couple years because Acoustic Sounds released a handful of tapes they like. For others, it's impossible to convince them that anything other than stereo is worth the time and money. Fortunately, it isn't my job or goal to convince anyone that immersive audio is the present and future, and that they should dive in head first. I'm just trying to relay my experience, my enjoyment, share what I know and what I see about immersive audio, much like I did with computer audio over a decade ago. 

     

    I certainly think immersive audio is the present and future of the mainstream, and that the high end has the ability to take it to amazingly new heights. To the hesitant among us, I'll quote Jewel Kilcher, "Everything's temporary given enough time." 

     


    Four - How

     

    I'm going to save the "HOW" for another article, where I'll detail exactly how I'm getting amazing sound in my listening room, by supplementing my two channel system with an immersive system. Please notice that I said supplement, not replace. I'm still a card-carrying, knuckle-dragging audiophile who loves two channel stereo. It's what I grew up listening to and it's impossible to get it out of me, no matter how great immersive audio sounds. 

     

    I will say that my immersive system is among the most unique in the world, and capable of stunning sound. I'm using custom 65,000 tap convolution filters from Accurate Sound, and have the ability to upsample to DSD256 with HQPlayer. All Wilson Audio speakers with Constellation and Mytek amplification, Merging Technologies digital, and Transparent Audio cabling throughout.  Here's an updated system list (LINK).

     

    I can't wait to write about it all for everyone, in detail. The problem is that I have to stop listening long enough, to compose the articles :~)

     

     




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    32 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

    Hi @DigiPete, I was thinking about this more today. I know, that’s what I do. Eat, sleep, and breathe this stuff. The issue with the Arvus going AES out is the lack of DSP if the source is something like an Apple TV. Apple TV > Arvus > AES > speakers, leaves no place for room correction. 
     

    On the other hand, using the Arvus Ravenna outputs, the signal can be sent to a computer running convolution, then sent back out via Ravenna. If your speakers had Tavenna input, all would be right :~)

     

    Also, if your speakers had Ravenna input, you could use a Mac with Apple Music and convolution, to send right to them. No Arvus needed. 


    Yup, or you have a full Genelec SAM monitor system controlled by GLM and fed pure AES/EBU.
    That means a full suite of low latency DSP right in the monitors including room compensation, and volume. 
    I just need a couple of extra monitors to complete a 5.1.4 system . . .

    Genelec actually has the 40XX series of "Smart IP Installation Speakers"  with AES67 / Dante Input and PoE.
    Unfortunately none with coaxial drivers - so a no-go for me.
    There is no way back, once you experience that co-ax imaging 😉

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    9 hours ago, DigiPete said:


    Yup, or you have a full Genelec SAM monitor system controlled by GLM and fed pure AES/EBU.
    That means a full suite of low latency DSP right in the monitors including room compensation, and volume. 
    I just need a couple of extra monitors to complete a 5.1.4 system . . .

    Genelec actually has the 40XX series of "Smart IP Installation Speakers"  with AES67 / Dante Input and PoE.
    Unfortunately none with coaxial drivers - so a no-go for me.
    There is no way back, once you experience that co-ax imaging 😉

    Here you go @DigiPete, create a new room with this setup😁

     

    https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ImmersiveSysG1--genelec-7.14-immersive-audio-studio-monitor-system

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    2 hours ago, ShawnC said:


    Like Chris, my brain won't let me off the hook . . . . 

    How I would start over, if I realistically spec'ed a new 5.1.4 Genelec system from scratch? 

    • Base layer: 3 x 8341 (L/C/R) + 2 x 8330 L/R rear
    • Sub / LFE: 2 x 7360
    • Height layer: 4 x 8330


    Multiple Atmos studios have been build like that around the world - naturally in 7.1.4.
    Totally makes sense to me.

    I'd additionally need:

    • GLM kit - calibration & control
    • Rotary volume knob - 9301B
    • Remote  - 9101B -  On/OFF, Volume, mute , change of group presets.
    • Multi-channel AES/EBU interface (sub integration) - 9301B just about to be released


    At $ / € 20k, this monitor system delivers insane quality for the money with fast & easy setup and predictable room compensation.

    Way too much?
    Wanna go analogue & 'roll your own' ( dac, room compensation, volume control etc.)?
    Still want the SPL and bang for the buck?
    Go Motu + Kali 

    Base layer: 7 x Kali IN-8 (2nd wave)
    Sub / LFE: 1 x Kali WS-12
    Height layer: 4 x Kali IN-5
    DAC / DSP: 2 x Motu 8A

    ESS DAC's in the Motu's are rather good and you can control volume in all 16 channels from the MOTU web app or app on your computer. 
    The Moto has a limited 4 PEQ's per channel, but it'll still help you harness those low's.

    This monitor system also delivers insane quality for the money, a little less perfect and requires way more tinkering.
    $ / € 6k !!!!!

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    1 minute ago, R1200CL said:

    @The Computer Audiophile

    Chris, can we expect reviews of SSP’s supporting immersive audio ?

    In general, no. I will review ones that interest me for music playback as long as they can do it at a very high level. 

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    Just now, The Computer Audiophile said:

    In general, no. I will review ones that interest me for music playback as long as they can do it at a very high level. 

    Those can be counted on one hand I think. 

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    What an impressive journey toward a first rate immersive system! I would love to sample it through headphones if you could get one of your many industry friends to loan you a binaural recording head…but maybe you already planned something in that fashion.

     

    Owning already a very good SACD 4.1 system that has wiring all over the place, I wanted a simpler secondary Wifi based Atmos system to stream immersive classical recordings and settled finally for a Sonos Beam soundbar complemented with a Sonos amp driving a pair old Dynaco speakers that I had hanging around for surround. This setup really does the trick for me! 

     

    The back speakers are angled towards the ceiling on each side of a couch, and facing toward the front, giving some height information. The result with well done recordings is quite amazing to me. The concert hall is very well recreated by the Sonos algorithm with this setup, much much better than with only a soundbar!

     

    I finally gave up on Apple and went with Amazon Music because the service streams directly to my Sonos system without having to go through Apple hardware. Apple Music is much better looking than Amazon, granted, but you can still find the same Atmos recordings on Amazon if you know what to look for.

     

    The latest gem I found is the DG Atmos version of Mahler symphony no. 3 with Pierre Boulez and the Wiener Philarmoniker, incredible dynamics and the quality of that concert hall very well recreated, even through a system that costs ten times less than my SACD main one…

     

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    4 hours ago, GillesP said:

    Apple Music is much better looking than Amazon, granted, but you can still find the same Atmos recordings on Amazon if you know what to look for.

    Really?  Not what I am finding, but then I guess I don't know what to look for?

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    56 minutes ago, ted_b said:

    Really?  Not what I am finding, but then I guess I don't know what to look for?

    I was referring to the dark look with strange colors that I find ugly in the Amazon Music app compared to Apple Music, but also they don't do good Spatial Audio suggestions as Apple does. You have to enter keywords (composer work etc) in the search field and look for recordings showing the Dolby Atmos tag, then in my case, enter the same thing in the Sonos S2 app on the phone to stream the result. I also had Apple Music as a service in the Sonos app for a while but they only stream stereo...

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    As far as I know, Amazon only streams Atmos to its own speakers. Stereo to everything else. 

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    51 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

    As far as I know, Amazon only streams Atmos to its own speakers. Stereo to everything else. 

    Atmos works fine with my Sonos soundbar and surrounds with Amazon Music...

     

    From the Sonos support page:

     

    Listen to Dolby Atmos on Sonos

     

     

    Sonos Arc and Beam (Gen 2) support Dolby Atmos audio. This article outlines the main factors that determine if your Arc or Beam (Gen 2) can play Dolby Atmos audio. These factors include the HDMI connections on your TV, streaming services like Netflix or Amazon Prime Video, and physical source devices like Fire TV, Roku, or Apple TV. If Arc or Beam (Gen 2) are receiving an Atmos signal, it will be displayed within the Sonos App on both the “Now Playing” screen and within the “About My System” menu.

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    20 minutes ago, GillesP said:

    Atmos works fine with my Sonos soundbar and surrounds with Amazon Music...

     

    From the Sonos support page:

     

    Listen to Dolby Atmos on Sonos

     

     

    Sonos Arc and Beam (Gen 2) support Dolby Atmos audio. This article outlines the main factors that determine if your Arc or Beam (Gen 2) can play Dolby Atmos audio. These factors include the HDMI connections on your TV, streaming services like Netflix or Amazon Prime Video, and physical source devices like Fire TV, Roku, or Apple TV. If Arc or Beam (Gen 2) are receiving an Atmos signal, it will be displayed within the Sonos App on both the “Now Playing” screen and within the “About My System” menu.

     

    I certainly see that, but both Dolby and Amazon say it's only available on headphones via mobile device and an Amazon smart speaker. 

     

    https://www.dolby.com/experience/amazon-music/

     

    https://www.amazon.com/music/unlimited/why-hd?view=spatial-audio

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    Thanks for the article, I have a modest atmos system with Emotiva speakers and marantz receiver and I also been enjoying Dolby Atmos music releases more than ever.  I used to listen to the occasional SACD but honestly the convenience of Apple music is really making it easier.  Probably for another thread but been frustrated with Tidal App on apple TV, the atmos mixes are at least 10db lower than regular tracks, I really have to crank the volume on those.  For for now i am prefer Apple for atmos music.  

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    Thanks Chris for this great series of articles on “Immersive”. 

     

    You’ve probably already thought of this; but another useful article could be distinguishing “Immersive” from traditional MCH audio. There’s obviously a tendency for us to lump the two together, as they are in many respects, very similar.

     

    As I understand it, the main differences are…

     

    1/ Traditional Multichannel is channel based; meaning there’s a hard limit as to the number of channels on any given MCH recording. 8 channels (or 7.1) seems to be the limit. If the number of channels on an MCH recording exceeds the channels in your system, you’ll need to down-mix. For example from 7.1 to 5.1. Though most available MCH recordings are 5.1 (with some at 5.0, 4.1?, 4.0, 3.1?, 3.0, or 2.1, until we’re finally back to good ol’ 2 channel stereo).  Where 7.1 traditional MCH exists, it is designated as, Left front, Right front, Center, Sub, Left rear, Right rear, Left side, Right side. There is no concept of a height channel or channels.

     

    2/ “Immersive” is “object” based. So there is no hard limit, as far as the recording is concerned. I suppose, theoretically at least, every instrument/voice on a recording could be its own “object”. This means that an “Immersive” recording is more likely to require down-mixing, or rather allocation/distribution of the “objects” amongst the physical channels in a given system. There is, however, a practical limit as to how many physical channels are likely to be available in a given speaker based system. Perhaps this will converge on 12, in a similar sense that for traditional multi-channel, 5.1 is the most typical.

     

    3/ The main contribution that “Immersive” brings to the table, appears to be the addition of one or more height channels. So the question that always comes to my mind, is what advantage do height channels bring to music? I believe you already addressed this to some degree in previous articles. It does also seem that this will depend on the genre of music and where it was recorded. Classical music recorded in a traditional concert hall built, with that music in mind, will generate multiple reflections from all directions within the hall, which will be experienced differently, depending on where the listener is seated. Other genres of music, with far fewer instruments and voices, recorded in a studio also involve reflections, though these can, presumably be more easily controlled. It also becomes a question of which perspective on the music the listener will experience. Do you want to be in the middle of the band or have the band perform in front of you?; etc. Artificial spaces can also be eletronically generated with effects, and these become part of the artistic creation. Perhaps we are entering a time though, where there’ll be greater audience or listener participation in the final result? Two channel recordings, of course, treat all genres of music equally, because they are equally limited.

     

    I think it’s useful to distinguish clearly between “Immersive” and traditional multi-channel. If we lump the two together, it can be argued that Qobuz already support immersive, because they have been streaming traditional, full quality 5.1 multi-channel, for some years now. Most of these titles are classical/opera and most are at 96/24 or 192/24 for all 6 channels!

     

    4/ Obviously “Immersive” in the form of Dolby Atmos and similar, object based formats can be experienced on headphones (any headphones actually). Whereas with traditional Multichannel recordings, headphone listeners need not apply. For headphone listening, the result is perhaps similar to the old Binaural/Dummy head recordings, which have been around since at least the 70s. I suppose with headphones no down-mixing or allocation of objects to different physical channels is performed, even though there are only two channels available. I’m guessing this is because the room is taken out of the equation, so the “spatial” illusion can be re-created to a degree, because of the proximity of the transducers to our ears. I must admit though, my understanding of this is shaky.  I’ve even wondered if this couldn’t be experienced to some degree with nearfield speaker listening, whereby a pair of speakers could act like giant headphones.

     

    5/ Where you have full quality Dolby Atmos recordings available (currently only on some blu-ray discs), you can rip then decode them using the Dolby Reference Player, to the number of physical channels your speaker system has. If you have enough physical channels, these could include at least one height channel. If not, the result of your decoding would be the same as a traditional Multi-channel recording, for example at 5.1, if that’s the number of channels you have; except the sample rate may be limited to 48khz for each channel, as necessary to squeeze all those additional channels onto the disc. In that case an actual traditional MCH recording would, presumably be better, if each channel were >= 96khz.

     

    The decoded Dolby Atmos from a Blu-Ray results in regular 48khz/24 bit PCM per channel, which could have convolution performed on the channels, for example via HQPlayer playback.

     

    A spatial stream from Apple Music can be decoded by MacOS in real-time and fed into HQPlayer’s input mode.

     

    To conclude, I’m sure the results of, particularly full quality Dolby Atmos, on a system, such as the one you’ve built, can be truly spectacular. This seems even more dependant on the job done by the mixing engineer and the genre of music, than with stereo recordings though, and with legacy recordings, risks moving away from the original artsts intentions.

     

    I’ve realised I needed to type this out to confirm my own understanding. So please correct me wherever I’ve made any mistakes and keep the great articles coming, if you can tear yourself away from listening!

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    Whereas with traditional Multichannel recordings, headphone listeners need not apply. 
     

    Actually. If you use Redscape with headphones, you have traditional discrete 5.1 MCH in your head.  It’s pretty cool. JCR 

     

    https://www.redscapeaudio.com

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    3 hours ago, Geoffrey Armstrong said:

    1/ Traditional Multichannel is channel based; meaning there’s a hard limit as to the number of channels on any given MCH recording. 8 channels (or 7.1) seems to be the limit. If the number of channels on an MCH recording exceeds the channels in your system, you’ll need to down-mix. For example from 7.1 to 5.1. Though most available MCH recordings are 5.1 (with some at 5.0, 4.1?, 4.0, 3.1?, 3.0, or 2.1, until we’re finally back to good ol’ 2 channel stereo).  Where 7.1 traditional MCH exists, it is designated as, Left front, Right front, Center, Sub, Left rear, Right rear, Left side, Right side. There is no concept of a height channel or channels.

    All that is true for mainstream multichannel but several labels have, over the years introduced height channels.  I am thinking of Telarc, Chesky and MDG ("2+2+2"0.

    3 hours ago, Geoffrey Armstrong said:

    I think it’s useful to distinguish clearly between “Immersive” and traditional multi-channel. If we lump the two together, it can be argued that Qobuz already support immersive, because they have been streaming traditional, full quality 5.1 multi-channel, for some years now. Most of these titles are classical/opera and most are at 96/24 or 192/24 for all 6 channels!

    Agreed except that the Qobuz app does not support any multichannel at this time and it is necessary to utilize Roon (are there others?) in order to hear those tracks in more than stereo.

    3 hours ago, Geoffrey Armstrong said:

    4/ Obviously “Immersive” in the form of Dolby Atmos and similar, object based formats can be experienced on headphones (any headphones actually). Whereas with traditional Multichannel recordings, headphone listeners need not apply.

    Not if you have a Smyth Realiser on hand.

    3 hours ago, Geoffrey Armstrong said:

    I’ve realised I needed to type this out to confirm my own understanding. So please correct me wherever I’ve made any mistakes and keep the great articles coming, if you can tear yourself away from listening!

    I think you did a great job.

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    4 hours ago, Geoffrey Armstrong said:

    Thanks Chris for this great series of articles on “Immersive”. 

     

    You’ve probably already thought of this; but another useful article could be distinguishing “Immersive” from traditional MCH audio. There’s obviously a tendency for us to lump the two together, as they are in many respects, very similar.

     

    As I understand it, the main differences are…

     

    1/ Traditional Multichannel is channel based; meaning there’s a hard limit as to the number of channels on any given MCH recording. 8 channels (or 7.1) seems to be the limit. If the number of channels on an MCH recording exceeds the channels in your system, you’ll need to down-mix. For example from 7.1 to 5.1. Though most available MCH recordings are 5.1 (with some at 5.0, 4.1?, 4.0, 3.1?, 3.0, or 2.1, until we’re finally back to good ol’ 2 channel stereo).  Where 7.1 traditional MCH exists, it is designated as, Left front, Right front, Center, Sub, Left rear, Right rear, Left side, Right side. There is no concept of a height channel or channels.

     

    2/ “Immersive” is “object” based. So there is no hard limit, as far as the recording is concerned. I suppose, theoretically at least, every instrument/voice on a recording could be its own “object”. This means that an “Immersive” recording is more likely to require down-mixing, or rather allocation/distribution of the “objects” amongst the physical channels in a given system. There is, however, a practical limit as to how many physical channels are likely to be available in a given speaker based system. Perhaps this will converge on 12, in a similar sense that for traditional multi-channel, 5.1 is the most typical.

     

    3/ The main contribution that “Immersive” brings to the table, appears to be the addition of one or more height channels. So the question that always comes to my mind, is what advantage do height channels bring to music? I believe you already addressed this to some degree in previous articles. It does also seem that this will depend on the genre of music and where it was recorded. Classical music recorded in a traditional concert hall built, with that music in mind, will generate multiple reflections from all directions within the hall, which will be experienced differently, depending on where the listener is seated. Other genres of music, with far fewer instruments and voices, recorded in a studio also involve reflections, though these can, presumably be more easily controlled. It also becomes a question of which perspective on the music the listener will experience. Do you want to be in the middle of the band or have the band perform in front of you?; etc. Artificial spaces can also be eletronically generated with effects, and these become part of the artistic creation. Perhaps we are entering a time though, where there’ll be greater audience or listener participation in the final result? Two channel recordings, of course, treat all genres of music equally, because they are equally limited.

     

    I think it’s useful to distinguish clearly between “Immersive” and traditional multi-channel. If we lump the two together, it can be argued that Qobuz already support immersive, because they have been streaming traditional, full quality 5.1 multi-channel, for some years now. Most of these titles are classical/opera and most are at 96/24 or 192/24 for all 6 channels!

     

    4/ Obviously “Immersive” in the form of Dolby Atmos and similar, object based formats can be experienced on headphones (any headphones actually). Whereas with traditional Multichannel recordings, headphone listeners need not apply. For headphone listening, the result is perhaps similar to the old Binaural/Dummy head recordings, which have been around since at least the 70s. I suppose with headphones no down-mixing or allocation of objects to different physical channels is performed, even though there are only two channels available. I’m guessing this is because the room is taken out of the equation, so the “spatial” illusion can be re-created to a degree, because of the proximity of the transducers to our ears. I must admit though, my understanding of this is shaky.  I’ve even wondered if this couldn’t be experienced to some degree with nearfield speaker listening, whereby a pair of speakers could act like giant headphones.

     

    5/ Where you have full quality Dolby Atmos recordings available (currently only on some blu-ray discs), you can rip then decode them using the Dolby Reference Player, to the number of physical channels your speaker system has. If you have enough physical channels, these could include at least one height channel. If not, the result of your decoding would be the same as a traditional Multi-channel recording, for example at 5.1, if that’s the number of channels you have; except the sample rate may be limited to 48khz for each channel, as necessary to squeeze all those additional channels onto the disc. In that case an actual traditional MCH recording would, presumably be better, if each channel were >= 96khz.

     

    The decoded Dolby Atmos from a Blu-Ray results in regular 48khz/24 bit PCM per channel, which could have convolution performed on the channels, for example via HQPlayer playback.

     

    A spatial stream from Apple Music can be decoded by MacOS in real-time and fed into HQPlayer’s input mode.

     

    To conclude, I’m sure the results of, particularly full quality Dolby Atmos, on a system, such as the one you’ve built, can be truly spectacular. This seems even more dependant on the job done by the mixing engineer and the genre of music, than with stereo recordings though, and with legacy recordings, risks moving away from the original artsts intentions.

     

    I’ve realised I needed to type this out to confirm my own understanding. So please correct me wherever I’ve made any mistakes and keep the great articles coming, if you can tear yourself away from listening!

    Hi @Geoffrey Armstrong Great post. I’ll do my best to reply from the beach in Northern Minnesota (Independence Day holiday :~)). 
     

    Immersive can’t be distinguished from traditional multichannel because it’s object based. The two immersive music formats are Atmos and Auro 3D. Atmos is of course object based, but Auro 3D is channel based. Nobody is doing DTS immersive music, based on what my contacts who mix and master this stuff say. 
     

    Immersive to me involves layers beyond ear level, namely height channels. This is where the immersive comes from, being immersed in audio from all angles. 
     

    Immersive seems to be settling in 7.1.4 12 channel systems, but others are definitely supported. 
     

    I plan many more articles about all of this as you noted. Immersive brings many things to the table for both consumers and creators. Creators are now free from technology dictating what they do. They now have a 3D space in which to play music. Reproducing this as a consumer is great for all different types of music. Sure, a classical concert and recording all now expands to the ceiling. This is fantastic and an obvious use of the format. Others are using it more actively by placing audio everywhere initially. This means we can hear the reverb of sounds originating behind us, in the front channels. I have much more to say about this, and it may surprise people :~)

     

    I think mixing engineers will finally get their due rather than mastering engineers getting all the press. Mixing in immersive makes or breaks a recording. 
     

    Back to the water for me for now. I’m still digesting your full post. Great stuff. Keep it coming!

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    Thank you for mentioning the Berliner Philharmoniker's Digital Concert Hall app is available for Apple TV!  Should have realized, but just never thought of it.

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    On 7/2/2022 at 9:37 PM, Kal Rubinson said:

    All that is true for mainstream multichannel but several labels have, over the years introduced height channels.  I am thinking of Telarc, Chesky and MDG ("2+2+2"0.

    Agreed except that the Qobuz app does not support any multichannel at this time and it is necessary to utilize Roon (are there others?) in order to hear those tracks in more than stereo.

    Not if you have a Smyth Realiser on hand.

    I think you did a great job.

    Thanks very much Kal.

     

    I wasn’t aware that labels such as the ones you mentioned added height channels to some of their MCH releases.

     

    I have also used Audirvana to playback multichannel streams from Qobuz.

     

    I also hadn’t heard of the Smyth Realiser. Will check it out.

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    On 7/2/2022 at 10:59 PM, The Computer Audiophile said:

    Hi @Geoffrey Armstrong Great post. I’ll do my best to reply from the beach in Northern Minnesota (Independence Day holiday :~)). 
     

    Immersive can’t be distinguished from traditional multichannel because it’s object based. The two immersive music formats are Atmos and Auro 3D. Atmos is of course object based, but Auro 3D is channel based. Nobody is doing DTS immersive music, based on what my contacts who mix and master this stuff say. 
     

    Immersive to me involves layers beyond ear level, namely height channels. This is where the immersive comes from, being immersed in audio from all angles. 
     

    Immersive seems to be settling in 7.1.4 12 channel systems, but others are definitely supported. 
     

    I plan many more articles about all of this as you noted. Immersive brings many things to the table for both consumers and creators. Creators are now free from technology dictating what they do. They now have a 3D space in which to play music. Reproducing this as a consumer is great for all different types of music. Sure, a classical concert and recording all now expands to the ceiling. This is fantastic and an obvious use of the format. Others are using it more actively by placing audio everywhere initially. This means we can hear the reverb of sounds originating behind us, in the front channels. I have much more to say about this, and it may surprise people :~)

     

    I think mixing engineers will finally get their due rather than mastering engineers getting all the press. Mixing in immersive makes or breaks a recording. 
     

    Back to the water for me for now. I’m still digesting your full post. Great stuff. Keep it coming!

    I attempted to respond from Marineland near Antibes, where we took our nine year old daughter over the weekend, and got up close and personal with some Dolphins 😀

     

    Unfortunately my responses didn't go through, due to a poor internet connection.

     

    So the differences between traditional multi-channel and "immersive" are not so clear cut as I'd thought. So I'll just continue to refer to the first as "traditional Multi-Channel" and the second as "Immersive".

     

    I'm sure your new "Immersive" system also makes a superb "Traditional Multi-Channel" system and any comparisons between the two, you can make on your system, will be interesting to learn about.

     

    I'm looking forward to your further articles.

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    On 7/3/2022 at 4:49 PM, Jud said:

    Thank you for mentioning the Berliner Philharmoniker's Digital Concert Hall app is available for Apple TV!  Should have realized, but just never thought of it.

     

    IMHO it is a horrible experience on Apple TV with video. The camera changes every 2 -6 seconds. While the sound remains fixed in space the video jumps around constantly

     

    here's the soloist for 5 seconds

    jump to a closeup of a violinist for 2 seconds

    jump to a wide angle of the conductor and orchestra for 3 seconds

    back to the soloist for 4 seconds

    camera slowly swoops in from the back of the orchestra until all you see is the conductor

    closeup of the violins for a few seconds

    closeup of the percussionist for a second

    closeup of the flautist for 3 seconds

     

     

    and on and on for an hour or more ???? no way in hell I can sit through that.. It is a HORRIBLE experience

     

     

     

     

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    13 minutes ago, bbosler said:

     

    IMHO it is a horrible experience on Apple TV with video. The camera changes every 2 -6 seconds. While the sound remains fixed in space the video jumps around constantly

     

    here's the soloist for 5 seconds

    jump to a closeup of a violinist for 2 seconds

    jump to a wide angle of the conductor and orchestra for 3 seconds

    back to the soloist for 4 seconds

    camera slowly swoops in from the back of the orchestra until all you see is the conductor

    closeup of the violins for a few seconds

    closeup of the percussionist for a second

    closeup of the flautist for 3 seconds

     

     

    and on and on for an hour or more ???? no way in hell I can sit through that.. It is a HORRIBLE experience

     

     

     

     


    This is definitely an issue. Directors of photography need to figure out how to show this so it works with the audio. The audio is so good at enabling us to locate instruments and hear reverb, that I’m not sure how video can make this work. It seems like a close up on the violinist would require audio switch to that perspective. Yuck!

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