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    The Computer Audiophile

    My Lying Ears

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    As a diehard card-carrying audiophile I am interested in all things related to this wonderful hobby. I've published articles based solely on my subjective listening experience and I've published articles detailing only objective measurements and facts about products. I enjoy publishing and reading articles that cover the gamut. I also think it's healthy and interesting to be open to perspectives completely incongruent with our own. With this in mind, I was recently sent a link to the JRiver forum to read a post about one person's perspective and experience as an inquisitive listener. I really liked what I read, in the sense that it's a real world story to which many people can probably relate and it was written in a non-confrontational way. In fact every audiophile I know, golden-eared or not, has at one time or another experienced something very similar to the follow story. I'm not pushing any agenda or endorsing a point of view by publishing this article. I simply think a worthwhile read for all who enjoy this hobby as much as I do.

     

    Here is a a re-written, more complete version of the post, sent to me for publication by the author Michael.[PRBREAK][/PRBREAK]

     

     

    Recently on the Jriver forums (Link) a forum regular was describing his experience at an audio shootout where three bit perfect players were compared. Jriver had not done particularly well in the tests (only receiving 4 out of 38 votes), and there was some discussion of why that might've been the case, given that all three players were (at least notionally) bit-perfect. There were some questions about the test methodology (you can see all the gory details in the linked thread), and some good discussion about how bit-perfect players might or might not conceivably sound different. Ultimately several forum members were of the opinion that the test was basically invalid, while others thought that surely, because so many people heard a difference that there must've been a real difference to be heard.

     

    My own view on this issue is complex. I will confess that I have occasionally heard differences between bit-perfect players. But I don't believe that bit-perfect players actually sound different. That may sound like a paradox, so I'll follow it up with a second one: I don't trust my own ears to correctly detect those kinds of differences in audio. You might well ask “Why not?” Let me offer an embarrassing personal anecdote to explain my point of view about listening tests and the fallibility of the ear:

Several years ago I built a pair of home-made bi-amped speakers. They're each the size of a large washing machine and they took me the better part of a year to build (more than a month of Sundays). Because they were entirely home-made and I was trying to do an active crossover from scratch, even after they were structurally complete, they still required quite a bit of tweaking to get the crossovers dialed in and the EQ set. 

So I started by just dialing in the EQ that seemed to make sense based on the specifications of the drivers, and taking a couple of quick RTAs with pink noise. That sounded alright, and all of my friends (several of whom are musicians and/or “sound guys”) dutifully told me how great they sounded. There was just one hitch: I kept getting headaches whenever listening to the speakers, and the headaches would go away right after I turned them off. So I tried to solve the problem by tweaking some frequencies with EQ. After some tweaks, I'd think I'd made some progress (it sounded better!), and everyone who heard the changes thought the new EQ sounded better.

     

    Eventually, I even started dutifully "blindly" A/Bing new EQ with the old EQ (I'd switch between them during playback without telling my guests what I was switching, which isn't really blind at all), and my guests would invariably swear the new EQ sounded better. And I kept going with this "tuning by ear" method, often reversing previous decisions, backing and forthing and adding more and more convoluted filters. 

The most embarrassing moment (and something of a turning point) was when I was A/Bing a filter, and a friend and I were convinced we were on to something really excellent. After ten minutes of this, we realized that the filter bank as a whole was disabled. I had been toggling the individual filter, but the bank of filters wasn't on, so it wasn't actually even affecting playback at all. And we had been very convinced we heard a difference. And the headaches never went away.

Eventually the headaches (and a growing skepticism) prompted me to stop screwing around and take some real log sweep measurements (at the suggestion of one my more empirically-minded friends). Once I did, I realized that there was apparently a huge (10+ dB) semi-ultrasonic resonant peak at 18.5KHz that I couldn't even actually hear. So I fixed it and verified the fix with measurements. And then my headaches went away. 

This prompted me to take an agonizing look at the rest of the measurements and noticed that my "tuning by ear" which I (and my friends) all felt was clearly superior had turned the frequency response into a staggering sawtooth. So I systematically removed the EQ that was pushing things away from "flat," and kept the EQ that contributed to flatness, and re-verified with measurements. The result sounded so different, and so much more natural that I was embarrassed to have wasted months messing around trying to use my "golden ears" to tune my speakers. And my wife (who had been encouraging, but politely non-committal about my EQ adventure) came home and asked unprompted if I had done something different with the speakers, and said they sounded much better. And she was right; they did. In a few afternoons, I had done more to move things forward than I had in months of paddling around. 


     

    The point of this anecdote is not to try and prove to anyone that my measurement-derived EQ sounded better than my ear-derived EQ or that a flat frequency response will sound best: as it happens, I ultimately preferred a frequency slope that isn't perfectly flat, but I couldn't even get that far by ear. 

The point is that taking actual measurements had allowed me to:


     

    1) Cure my ultrasonic frequency-induced headaches;


    2) Improve the fidelity of my system (in the literal sense of audio fidelity as "faithfulness to the source"); and


    3) Ultimately find the EQ curve that I liked best (which looked nothing like my ear-tuned curve).



     

    My ears (and the inadvertently biased ears of my friends) did not allow me to do any of those things, and in fact led me far astray on issue 2). My ears couldn't even really get me to 3) because I kept reversing myself and getting tangled up in incremental changes. Most damning, my ears were not even reliably capable of detecting no change if I thought there was a change to be heard. 

Once I realized all this, it was still surprisingly hard to admit that I had been fooling myself, and that I was so easily fooled! So I have sympathy for other people who don't want to believe that their own ears may be unreliable, and I understand why folks get mad at any suggestion that their perception may be fallible. I've been accused by many indignant audiophiles of having a tin ear, and if I could only hear what they hear, then I'd be immediately persuaded. But my problem is not that I am unpersuaded: it's that I'm too easily persuaded! I'll concede, of course, that it's possible that I have tin ears and other people's ears are much more reliable than mine, but the literature concerning the placebo effect, expectation bias, and confirmation bias in scientific studies suggests that I'm probably not entirely alone. 

And I've seen the exact same phenomenon played out with other people (often very bright people with very good ears) enough times that I find it embarrassing to watch sighted listening tests of any kind because they are so rarely conducted in a way designed to produce any meaningful information and lead into dark serpentines of false information and conclusions. 



     

    

So to bring things back around: if some bit perfect audio players have devised a way to improve their sound they have presumably done so through careful testing, in which case they should be able to provide measurements (whether distortion measurements on an analog output, digital loopback measurements, measurements of the data stream going to the DAC, or something) that validates that claim. If they claim that their output "sounds better" but does not actually measure better using current standards of measurement, they should be able to at least articulate a hypothetical measurement that would show their superiority. If they claim that the advantage isn't measurable, or that you should "just trust your ears" than they are either fooling themselves or you.

In a well-established field of engineering in which a great deal of research and development has been done, and in which there is a mature, thriving commercial market, one generally does not stumble blindly into mysterious gains in performance. Once upon a time you could discover penicillin by accident, or build an automobile engine at home. But you do not get to the moon, cure cancer, or improve a modern car's fuel efficiency by inexplicable accident. In an era where cheap-o motherboard DACs have better SNR's than the best studio equipment from 30 years ago, you don't improve audio performance by inexplicable accident either. If someone has engineered a "better than bit perfect" player they should be able to prove it, as they likely did their own testing as part of the design process. If they can't rigorously explain why (or haven't measured their own product!), let them at least explain what they have done in a way that is susceptible of proof and repetition. Otherwise what they are selling is not penicillin, it's patent medicine. 

Bottom line: if you and a group of other people hear a difference, there may really be a difference, but there may not be too. Measurements are the easy way to find out if there is really a difference. Once you've actually established that there is a real, measurable difference, only then does it make sense to do a properly conducted listening test to determine if that difference is audible. Otherwise you're just eating random mold to find out if it will help your cough (or headache, as the case may be).

     

    Or you can do what I do for the most part these days: just relax and enjoy the music.

     

     

    - Michael

     

     

     

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    Jud ... I think what Michael is saying, is that while the eye pattern images show that yes, the signal integrity to the USB input of the DAC is improved with the Regen, this is not able to prove that it will correlate to an improvement in the analogue output of the DAC (which is what is then amplified and turned into sound waves by the speakers).

     

    For a very limited analogy... Its like measuring the temperature of the water you put into the kettle, and because the water is chilled to 2c rather than 15c out of the tap pronouncing that the cup of tea that is produced is going to be vastly superior.

     

    Eloise

     

    Yes, Eloise, that much is clear. It's the mechanism by which the changes in one cause changes in the other that is key.

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    Jud ... I think what Michael is saying, is that while the eye pattern images show that yes, the signal integrity to the USB input of the DAC is improved with the Regen, this is not able to prove that it will correlate to an improvement in the analogue output of the DAC (which is what is then amplified and turned into sound waves by the speakers).

     

    For a very limited analogy... Its like measuring the temperature of the water you put into the kettle, and because the water is chilled to 2c rather than 15c out of the tap pronouncing that the cup of tea that is produced is going to be vastly superior.

    I think that analogy breaks down when you consider explanations such as John Swenson's related to power supply rail noise - I think this is very meaningful. It would be useful to show measurements such as this, I would not be surprised if the supply rail noise is quite visible and different with a signal that requires a lot of "tracking work" vs a very clean one that does not.

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    I think that analogy breaks down when you consider explanations such as John Swenson's related to power supply rail noise - I think this is very meaningful. It would be useful to show measurements such as this, I would not be surprised if the supply rail noise is quite visible and different with a signal that requires a lot of "tracking work" vs a very clean one that does not.

    You're right that the analogy breaks down easily.

     

    However (and I'm not suggesting Alex or John are claiming "proof") the fact that the input of the DAC is cleaners is not proof that the sound has changed.

     

    As I postulated a couple of years back if you examine a chain ... computer --> DAC --> amplifier --> speakers ... for the computer (and associated cabling and software) to affect the sound quality, it must produce an effect which alters the output of the DAC. (This ignores environmental factors which can affect the sound quality but if measured over a shortish time period are irrelevant and unlikely to change significantly). While many people will disagree with me, for the purpose of my "thought experiment"; sighted listening is an invalid proof that there is a sound change, though I would accept a controlled blind test.

     

    So these measurements are only part of the answer.

     

    Now if John or someone can show that a cleaner input affect the analogue output of the DAC in a significant number of DACs; then certainly we can start to use eye pattern measurements to show that one "Regen" is performing better than a competing device. It would go a long way to being able to "measure" and even prove there can be improvements offered by one software player vs another; or one computer vs another.

     

    Eloise

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    I think that analogy breaks down when you consider explanations such as John Swenson's related to power supply rail noise - I think this is very meaningful. It would be useful to show measurements such as this, I would not be surprised if the supply rail noise is quite visible and different with a signal that requires a lot of "tracking work" vs a very clean one that does not.

     

    If you think power supply noise is the relevant factor, then measure that. Do not measure something else and handwave that this other thing might be causing the thing that actually matters.

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    I believe all that's being said here, if we accept that there is a difference in SQ with the Regen (as per the many reports), is that correlation dos not equal to causation? In other words there may be many things that change as a result of the signal passing through the Regen which we can measure but knowing which is the actual cause of the SQ difference is what is in question.

     

    But this is at a preliminary stage of investigation so it's expected that there may be false starts & dead-ends encountered along the way before such causation is established. It's too soon to jump to premature conclusions one way or the other. Let the investigation continue at it's own pace without trying to preempt it. One has to remain open to the evidence that is produced & not try to force it. More evidence would be welcome, too!

     

    This post uses the Regen as an example as it's easier to talk about specifics then generalisations.

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    With respect Roch... this forum is for a range of views from the pure "I hear what I hear therefore it exists" to "All DACs / Amplifiers sound the same because the measure the same to the known threshold of hearing".

     

    To suggest the article shouldn't have been published in this forum is tantamount to censoring views you disagree with.

     

    Eloise

     

    Dear Eloise,

     

    With respect… I believe deaf people, non trained ears, or with very bad listening gear (non necessarily Maserati like, but some Toyota like and never from the UK :) ) needs measurements. The others, like me, just enjoy the music.

     

    And I still belive the article shouldn’t have been published, at least not in the Editorial Categorie.

     

    BTW, are you some kind of moderator in CA?

     

    Regards,

     

    Roch

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    Dear Eloise,... are you some kind of moderator in CA?

     

    Roch,

     

    No, not a moderater, but a troublemaker !

     

    See, it says so right under her name :)

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    ... But beware the eyes are easier to deceive than the ears. ...

     

    That should perhaps read, "the ears are easily deceived by the eyes." :)

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    Then you better sell your listening gear, buy an oscilloscope and stay looking at the screen when fed with music. But beware the eyes are easier to deceive than the ears.

     

    I find the article is rubbish and should never have been published in this forum.

     

    Roch

     

    Now this is some funny shit!

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    If it can't be measured, or at least proven with a properly conducted A-B-X listening test, it will always remain strictly an opinion. An opinion which has no place in any scientific investigation..

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    If it can't be measured, or at least proven with a properly conducted A-B-X listening test, it will always remain strictly an opinion. An opinion which has no place in any scientific investigation..

     

    Please provide the evidence from scientific investigations validating use of ABX testing as proof of audible differences, versus the several other types of tests that are available.

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    Please provide the evidence from scientific investigations validating use of ABX testing as proof of audible differences, versus the several other types of tests that are available.

     

    Science applied - Home

     

    I'll side with the industries two single most influential people: Toole and Olive

     

    I agree let's not just talk about AB/X testing. There are other testing protocols out there to blind and thus prevent bias.

     

    The article writer finally figured out the pursuit of audio and it was to finally submit to getting rid of pre-conditioning and accepting it for the data driven endeavor that it is.

     

    Blinding isn't handi-capping. It's isn't contrived listening. It isn't even stressful. What is stressful is thinking you can hear differences in everything instead of thinking about being excited to determine what you can and can't hear and going about it in a intellectually honest manner. The only stressed people I ever see in a blind scenario is the person that knows at their core belief is a seed of conspicuous self delusion.

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    Methinks you are doing that as well.

    If you think power supply noise is the relevant factor, then measure that. Do not measure something else and handwave that this other thing might be causing the thing that actually matters.

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    Methinks you are doing that as well.

    I don't believe he knows what he is saying - hence his own handwaving - ground plane noise can come either from the PS or from the signal ground they both ultimately join up (in fact many designs just intermix them) - measuring both signal & PS is appropriate! And finding noise riding on the signal waveform itself is a very likely sign that it will infiltrate the ground

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    However (and I'm not suggesting Alex or John are claiming "proof") the fact that the input of the DAC is cleaners is not proof that the sound has changed.

    Yes of course, agreed. I would like to see a measurement of power supply rail noise with and without a Regen, for example. As I stated elsewhere, I think every sound improvement should be measurable but what to measure might not be immediately clear.

     

    So these measurements are only part of the answer.

    Any (true) audible difference must be measurable. It's a physical world.

     

    Now if John or someone can show that a cleaner input affect the analogue output of the DAC in a significant number of DACs; then certainly we can start to use eye pattern measurements to show that one "Regen" is performing better than a competing device. It would go a long way to being able to "measure" and even prove there can be improvements offered by one software player vs another; or one computer vs another.

    Yes though again what to measure is not completely straightforward I don't think.

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    If you think power supply noise is the relevant factor, then measure that. Do not measure something else and handwave that this other thing might be causing the thing that actually matters.

    Yeap. Now even measuring power supply noise level, RMS level or whathaveyou might not be the entirety of the problem. Maybe the noise if looked at it carefully enough is able to make some component's non-linearity show up more than without the noise - I don't know - all I am trying to say is that there might be more to eat than the obvious measurements. As Jud pointed out, who wouldathunk jitter mattered?

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    I believe all that's being said here, if we accept that there is a difference in SQ with the Regen (as per the many reports), is that correlation dos not equal to causation?

    Ah my friend you're treading a dangerous path... :)

     

    Every (real) effect must be measurable. There are no phantasmagoric gnomes introduced by the regen that tickle our earloves making us believe the sound is better.

     

    I would propose these measurements (if possible):

    1- Supply rail noise level (10 microvol resolution should be plenty) with a USB input with and without a Regen.

    2- Analog output noise with the same configs above

    3- Phase shifts of all of the above

    4- Do these measurements with both a very low level and a very high level pure tone signal

    5- Same for a square wave signal

     

    If we see a difference, then create a subsequent experiment where we magnify this difference.

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    If it can't be measured, or at least proven with a properly conducted A-B-X listening test, it will always remain strictly an opinion. An opinion which has no place in any scientific investigation..

    Correct.

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    I think it's worth thinking about where we are at the moment, which is that we've got digital side measurements of differences with the Regen that accord with the theory behind its design. I think this is (strange to contemplate) more than I can recall seeing for other commercial high end audio products making similar claims, for example USB cables.

     

    John and Alex have said they will have measurements forthcoming. We'll see what they tell us.

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    Ah my friend you're treading a dangerous path... :)

     

    Every (real) effect must be measurable. There are no phantasmagoric gnomes introduced by the regen that tickle our earloves making us believe the sound is better.

     

    I would propose these measurements (if possible):

    1- Supply rail noise level (10 microvol resolution should be plenty) with a USB input with and without a Regen.

    2- Analog output noise with the same configs above

    3- Phase shifts of all of the above

    4- Do these measurements with both a very low level and a very high level pure tone signal

    5- Same for a square wave signal

     

    If we see a difference, then create a subsequent experiment where we magnify this difference.

     

    Miggy this is too complicated for me .

    Could you explain this at my level - the cromagnon subhuman level ?

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    Every (real) effect must be measurable. There are no phantasmagoric gnomes introduced by the regen that tickle our earloves making us believe the sound is better.

     

    In a sense, there are. They're called confirmation bias.

     

    I would propose these measurements (if possible):

    1- Supply rail noise level (10 microvol resolution should be plenty) with a USB input with and without a Regen.

    2- Analog output noise with the same configs above

    3- Phase shifts of all of the above

    4- Do these measurements with both a very low level and a very high level pure tone signal

    5- Same for a square wave signal

     

    That seems like a good set of initial measurements. Unfortunately, I don't have the equipment to do them myself.

     

    If we see a difference, then create a subsequent experiment where we magnify this difference.

     

    We could also induce whatever differences are found by other means and let listeners determine which ones are audible. Then it would be possible to address those problems directly rather than making random stabs in the dark.

     

    The current approach to these matters reminds me of medieval alchemy as opposed to modern chemistry.

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    As Jud says - how we view these measurments is really determined by where we are in the process of investigation. Currently we are at the preliminary stage in this investigation, the discovery stage where many measurements are being tried & correlations looked for. As I said correlations do not = causation (at this stage). Hopefully some early indications can be followed through to tests inside the DAC or audio device & the effects of the initial measured issues traced through the steps or not, as the case may be.

     

    I would love to see some measurements from JS to get some other data from another set of test equipment

     

    I believe it's completely the wrong approach to suggest trying to simulate the different proposed mechanism to see what is audible. There's just no way to do this correctly without the investigative work that is ongoing to uncover the underlying mechanism(s) & their nature/structure/characteristics - that's the scientifically correct approach

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    Ah my friend you're treading a dangerous path... :)

     

    Every (real) effect must be measurable. There are no phantasmagoric gnomes introduced by the regen that tickle our earloves making us believe the sound is better.

    See my post above - at this stage in the investigation correlation doesn't necessarily mean causation. There may turn out be many measurements which show something is changing between with/without Regen inline. We need to tease out which are of importance for SQ/audibility

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    If it can't be measured, or at least proven with a properly conducted A-B-X listening test, it will always remain strictly an opinion. An opinion which has no place in any scientific investigation..

     

    Empirical evidence is often what drives scientific investigation. To suggest that it has no place is, IMO, akin to sophistry.

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    Science applied - Home

     

    I'll side with the industries two single most influential people: Toole and Olive

     

    I agree let's not just talk about AB/X testing. There are other testing protocols out there to blind and thus prevent bias.

     

    The article writer finally figured out the pursuit of audio and it was to finally submit to getting rid of pre-conditioning and accepting it for the data driven endeavor that it is.

     

    Blinding isn't handi-capping. It's isn't contrived listening. It isn't even stressful. What is stressful is thinking you can hear differences in everything instead of thinking about being excited to determine what you can and can't hear and going about it in a intellectually honest manner. The only stressed people I ever see in a blind scenario is the person that knows at their core belief is a seed of conspicuous self delusion.

     

    +1 Jud your subjective religion is just plain wrong and does nothing but a disservice to progress in the field of audio. All your fancy wordsmithing will never change the facts.

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