Proof all DACs sound the same

[Sri]

This is simple, the market says they all sound the same. The high end DAC market has about a dozen players, none of them with dominant market share. If one of them had a truly superior product, they would quickly start gaining market share, use those increased volumes to both increase margins and lower prices triggering a virtuous circle resulting in them becoming the dominant player. That hasn't happened because they all sound the same.

 

[johnnyturbo]

pseudo rationality: tortuous, illogical attempt at logical "proof".

 

[sidssp]

Well, by your logic all amps sound the same too, as well as all speakers, preamps, CD players, ... pretty much every component in audio system because there isn't a single component in any category has dominant market share.

 

I am sorry but I don't think your logic holds water.

 

 

[Mark Powell]

Obviously a wind-up but I cannot resist this. A true story.

 

Once upon a time there were two guys, one with a very expensive Naim setup, the other an even more expensive KSL Kondo single-ended tube setup.

 

A third, with a budget setup, heard both of them and wondered why they sounded so different. As he had been employed in software for many years, he thought logically (to an extent). He reasoned that as the aim of it all is to reproduce the recordings as accurately as possible, the nearer you move towards the high end the more alike different setups should sound. But they did not. So one or the other, or both, was not really 'high end' at all.

 

Makes a whole lot more sense to me than what you are saying.

 

[bottlerocket]

"The high end DAC market has about a dozen players, none of them with dominant market share"

 

Show us the data to back this up.

 

I don't think high end audio is an efficient market, so I would not expect to learn too much from the data anyway.

 

Take Wavelength for example. The reviews are great, but the distribution is thin. Does that mean their DACs don't sound great? No it means they are a small shop doing things the way they want. Could they become a dominant player? Sure.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[catastrofe]

All high-end DACs have different cosmetics/form factors, therefore, they appeal to different visual tastes and there is no clearly dominant aesthetic.

 

This makes a much (or as little) sense as the original presumption.

 

[blueixus]

and fundamentally flawed.

 

As there is no common consensus on what sounds 'best', manufacturers survive by creating different sounding Dacs to tailor for these diverse opinions.

 

So logically speaking they actually do sound different....

 

 

 

 

 

[wdw]

.eom

 

[SoundQcar]

I agree with wdw...

 

Judging by his posts, this SRI character has a penchant for stoking fires. If he wants to be a bit more transparent about it, he needs to learn subtlety.

 

[new_media]

If time travel was possible, someone would have come back from the future by now to tell us how to do it.

 

[Paul R]

I like that term- "wind up". It fits.

 

Anyway, I forget who it was, but someone recently published an essay on the three kinds of sound audiophiles pursue.

 

(1) Reproduce as closely as possible the live sound of a concert

 

(2) Reproduce as closely as possible the sound of the recording

 

(3) Reproduce sound, modified as necessary, to be pleasing to the listener.

 

His premise was all audiophiles fall into at least one of these categories, though the lines are not strict and most people fall into two or more of the categories, depending upon circumstances.

 

I take it you fall mostly into camp #1 above? I would tend to fall mainly into camp #2, which explains why we sometimes seem to look at things from opposite sides of the universe.

 

-Paul

 

 

 

[PeterSt]

That hasn't happened because they all sound the same.

 

Troll or not (personally I don't think so), but why try to imagine logic which you seem to be not good at, while you have ears ?

 

Is your Devialet part of your Giant 12 ?

If so, it sounds the same as ? (one or two examples should be sufficient)

But supposed your Devialed is way under the best standards (defined by you), which 4 other DACs-brands sound the same ?

 

If you are a sport you mention a few. If not you are trolling indeed.

Or without ears of course.

 

Peter

 

[wdomeika]

There is no consensus as to which brand of interconnect sounds the best. This is simple, the market cannot tell which interconnect sounds the best, therefore all interconnects sound the same.

 

Although totally bs...this is a handy logic construct if you're trying to prove a double negative premise to numbskulls.

 

Cheers,

 

Bill

 

[wgscott]

The only thing that could make this more entertaining than invoking the laws of economics would be to invoke the laws of astrology.

 

God is love.

Love is blind.

Ray Charles is blind.

.: Ray Charles is God.

 

[esldude]

I don't buy the OP's somewhat fallacious logic. I do think he has a point.

 

I think we are close or fast approaching it where the audible performance is essentially perfect with the exception of speakers and amps. And whether or not an amp is perfect depends very much on which speaker it is asked to drive.

 

Still will be plenty of choices from visual appeal, convenience, basic build quality and other desired features. You could say all personal 4 wheeled vehicles are identical as all can transport people where needed at legal speeds. Yet we have everything from exotic multi-hundred thousand dollar exotics to basic Kia's. And for good reasons beyond the basic function of transportation.

 

Now one might have a better case for saying DAC chips in these DAC units have been winnowed down to usually a handful of choices.

 

[Paul R]

invoke the laws of astrology.

 

You mean, you don't?

 

It's absolutely important to know the exact date and time of the birth of the final inspector. He has to be compatible with your star signs, else wise, the equipment will never sound good to you.

 

Sa' fact! I read it somewhere!

 

-Paul

 

You can keep the edge,

of a razor as sharp,

as an eagles eye.

 

You can grow a hedge,

that is vertically straight,

over 10 feet high.

 

All you really need,

is a pyramid,

and just a little luck...

 

 

 

[jdubs]

You may want to ask the community college for your money back on the intro to econ class you took.

 

Your "logic" makes zero sense.

 

-Jim

 

[gcorley]

At least somebody's logic is working:

 

Ray Charles obviously is God!

 

[BobH]

Which gives us a starting team of 12 from which to select a messiah. I smell a new TV show in the making....MFactor?.....I'm a Sibling, Get Me Out Of Here?....America's Got Messiahs? :)

 

[Mark Powell]

1)I think trying to produce the sound of a concert is beyond us. At least a 'big' concert. I used to live in central London, quite near the Albert Hall. It is a huge Victorian circular building, with tiered seats and the orchestra sits near enough in the middle. Hearing Tsaichovski's '1812' with the real cannons was wonderful, also hearing Handel's 'Music for the Royal Fireworks' in the open in nearby Hyde Park. I just think we can never even come close. Chamber music, folk singing, maybe.

 

2)Sound of a recording? Most certainly. Logically that is what 'High Fidelity' means, and why I gave my Naim/Kondo illustration. I like 'small' music, most Baroque for example, chamber music, and simple folk music. These are not too difficult to record, I feel. But a good system can at least give you the impression of the correct timbre, nuances, details, etc. whereas a mass market budget system may not. I say impression because you can at least feel that you are getting it accurately, even if you are not.

 

If you achieve (2) to your satisfaction then maybe (3) arrives automatically? I suspect both the Naim and the Kondo owners, who were obviously not price limited, both think they achieve (2) and thus (3). I went to a Naim demo years ago in their factory, and by the time they reached their top setup I was absolutely spellbound. Not because it was/is the best available, it is not, but because it was far away the best I had heard.

 

Regards

 

[bzr]

Submitted by BobH on Sat, 11/26/2011 - 06:51. Joined: 10/04/2008 .:. Online .:. Comments: 769

Ray Charles obviously is God!..

Which gives us a starting team of 12 from which to select a messiah. I smell a new TV show in the making....MFactor?.....I'm a Sibling, Get Me Out Of Here?....America's Got Messiahs? :)

 

Now that made me laugh. Hope we don't find out sri wins.....

 

[waas]

http://www.drhifi.net.au/Hi-Fi/Digital%20Is%20Digital/1.htm

 

[CG]

Interesting article. I think it really typifies the thinking of a lot of people. But hey - if that belief set works for them, great!

 

Personally, I think where all this is somewhat lacking is that the argument is not extended far enough.

 

Yeah, the static bit patterns in the data almost certainly are maintained. There's probably some exceptions, but nobody reading this forum would likely purchase such junk.

 

But... Just what happens during the processing of this data in the computer to begin with? Is this a noiseless impact free operation?

 

Once the data gets to the next stage, the data "receiver" (or whatever the manufacturer of the DAC or CD player wants to call it), is that process noiseless and bit transparent?

 

How about any resampling filter? That clearly is NOT bit transparent. Its mission is to change the bits. If you have any knowledge about digital processing, you know that there are as many algorithms to do this as there are people reading this. Wait; what am I saying? There are more algorithms than that. Then there's a large number of ways to code each of those algorithms. Do they all give the same results? Is this process electrically noise free? Filtering does not come for free; what trade-offs have been made by the people who designed this part?

 

Then there's the DAC. With but a few exceptions, modern audio DAC chips use all sorts of mathematical processing since most of them are some sort of variation of sigma delta modulation. How accurate is this processing? Have any math short cuts been used to simplify the circuitry in the silicon? Is this part of the circuit noise free and totally impervious to electrical noise generated elsewhere?

 

Of course, you also have an analog section. It needs to be totally oblivious to and unaffected by the high frequency signals being sprayed and conducted everywhere in the box.

 

All easy and perfect.

 

A McDonald's hamburger is the perfect meal in every way, too.

 

[losingmyreligion]

 

"It needs to be totally oblivious to and unaffected by the high frequency signals being sprayed and conducted everywhere in the box."

 

 

Our Dr Hifi's comparo was a great example of what not to do - and he wonders why he can't tell the difference between the $500 Cambridge Audio DAC and the dCS??

 

He had not one, not two, but three DACs connected to his preamp simultaneously, and all connected to his AC circuit, and all in close proximity (in all likelihood).

 

I think he hit the noise trifecta - 1) ground loops, 2) noise carried on AC mains, and 3) EMI - both conducted and radiated.

 

 

Wonder if he left a stray laptop charger plugged in as well?

;0

 

clay

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[4est]

Only if you put pickles and ketchup on it to get your "two servings" of vegetables!