UpTone Audio is now an official MUTEC dealer! New REF10 Nano clock in stock today — $1,799

[BrianK]

Hi Tom.  I went down the same path as you in replacing a Project ClayX Giesmann clock with a Mutec REF10 (not the SE120) over a year ago and I've not experienced any issues.  I would perhaps try swapping out the 75ohm cable ?  The Giesmann is supplied as either a Sine Wave or Square wave version as I recall which needs to be nominated at time of order placement.  The Mutec is Square Wave output only so are you certain you have the right cable installed for a Square Wave output to the ER?

 

Those more knowledgeable than me will be able to point you in the right direction I'm sure.

[treitz3]

Hi, Brian. I have also tried two different Snake River Audio Boomslang cables as well. Unfortunately, the same thing happens with all 3 cables. The AD clock was purchased used and I do not know which version it is (sine/square). There are no adapters. All 3 cables were BNC/BNC, FWIW.

 

Tom

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, treitz3 said:

When I power up my amplifier, the Mutec resets itself and then I have to unplug the ER for about 10 seconds to reset it, otherwise the streamer gets no signal. After that? No issues.

Hi Tom:

Well the latter half of what you report is no surprise—since a clock has to be already be connected and running at the moment power is applied to the EtherREGEN and it does not tolerate even the shortest glitch or loss of clock; such necessitates reapplication of power (though it really does not need a 10 second pause—3 seconds is fine).

 

The real question is why your Mutec clock “resets” it itself and why is such caused by power-on of your power amp.

Perhaps somehow the voltage surge or droop—or some sort of static discharge—occurs when you turn on your amp and that causes a glitch in the clock output. Even a 3 microSecond glitch will cause the EtherREGEN to lose connection. The ‘A’ side might recover but the ‘B’ side will not—until you remove and reapply power.

 

Perhaps you can experiment with where your power amp is plugged into the AC mains.

Feel free to post a diagram of your system and perhaps we will spot another possible source of your issue or have remedy to suggest. Are you using the other outputs of your fancy REF10 SE120 with any other gear?

 

[Dang, I would have been happy to have sold you that top clock!  But just today I took our first REF10 SE120 order—from someone well known here—and he’s also getting an MC3+USB.]

[BrianK]

Alex's suggestion is worth checking out.  My previous power amp, a Luxman L58A would momentarily cause my house lights to dip when it powered up.  It had a substantial power transformer and the initial current inrush would cause a momentary voltage drop of probably only a few milliseconds but enough to notice.  Fortunately it never caused any issues with my audio gear at the time but the ER as Alex points out is not tolerant to even a momentary voltage drop when the ER external clock input is used.  The Mutec Ref10 might also be sensitive to the same issue.

 

BTW:  Given your investment in the ER and now the Mutec Ref 10, it's worthwhile sourcing a really good quality square wave cable for the Mutec + ER connection.  Perhaps Alex can also assist in that regard?

[Clockmeister]

Hello Alex

 

Yes I feel the measurement of that particular figure of merit is somewhat off, however the reviewer understood the purpose and performance of Nano 10 very well.

 

 

[Superdad]

6 hours ago, Clockmeister said:

Yes I feel the measurement of that particular figure of merit is somewhat off, however the reviewer understood the purpose and performance of Nano 10 very well.

Sorry, but I think that regardless of his subjective praise of performance, publishing a review of a clock—that is certified at -142dBc/Hz—and claiming it is only -72dBc/Hz is an egregious error, one that should not stand.

Seriously: Every 10dB difference is an order of magnitude (10x) difference; So I won’t begin to calculate the unfathomable 70dB discrepancy he claimed. 

Jaap V./Alpha-Audio Lab generally seem to go to some lengths with their measurements (he recently built a shielded box to eliminate impingement of environmental RFI on tests) so this really surprises me.

But it seems clear that despite usage of an expensive Wavecrest analyzer, he is either using the wrong tool for phase-noise measurement or does not have any decent reference clocks connected for cross-correlation.

 

Honestly, I liken it to reading a sports car write up wherein the reviewer let all the air out of the tires, reported the car was very slow, but liked its performance nonetheless. 

[Edit: P.S.   Alpha-Audio’s measurements of the REF10 Nano claim 28 picoseconds of total jitter. Picoseconds?! It should be more in the range of single digits of femtoseconds. Remember, 1ps = 1000fs!  Something is seriously wrong there.]

[Clockmeister]

Alex

 

I was being dipolmatic (odd I know 😁)

 

The use of  emi boxes I use only for pre complience and immunity testing on protoype boards and partial finished devices.

In a real world audio system in a listening room has zero relevance imho

[Superdad]

5 hours ago, Clockmeister said:

I was being dipolmatic (odd I know 😁)

You're getting soft Tony! 

 

I just sent a long yet respectful e-mail to Jaap Veenstra at Alpha-Audio about his very odd measurements--and I copied Mr. Christian Peters of Mutec.  

Hoping we can get this cleared up before some $100 Chinese clock vendor starts comparing themselves to Jaap's erroneous -72dBc/Hz / 28ps measurements... 

[Schafheide]

I am very aware that, in comparing my implementation of a particular piece of hardware or software, with other folk.

But for me, the REF10 NANO gives me a wider sound stage, with better instrument definition, more solid bass ad more appreciation of the recording hall acoustics.  Can't get much better than that!

[nickv]

I've not read a direct comparison between the Ref 10 Nano and the Ref 10. How should they compare if one was to look at them in terms of component quality and implementation? If one buys a Nano how close is it in performance to buying a Ref 10 with fewer outputs?

[Clockmeister]

4 hours ago, nickv said:

I've not read a direct comparison between the Ref 10 Nano and the Ref 10. How should they compare if one was to look at them in terms of component quality and implementation? If one buys a Nano how close is it in performance to buying a Ref 10 with fewer outputs?

 

Hello Nick

 

I did reply to this on another thread.

 

Hello Nikhil

 

It's a question I have been asked a lot in the last months or so.

 

These are my observations I have made so far:

 

The Nano is a long way from an SE-120, although you really would expect this. You get what you pay for, with the SE-120 it's a lot!

 

The Nano (mains powered) copared to a standard Ref 10, as good as the Nano is and its pretty decent, it is not going to deliver the performance of the Ref 10, yes it is closer to the normal Ref 10 but there's still a good gap. However the cost of the product reflects this as its around 50% less the cost of ref 10.

 

I have now tried the Nano with eight (8) off board power supplies ranging from the usual $180 ali express/flea bay units/Paul Haynes/Teddy Pardo/Sean Jacobs/Ferrum etc.

 

They all have a positive effect, some more so than others, I even used it with our top of the line lab power supply which is £20K and that was very good but not the best.

 

My suggestion would be to find the best low ripple current noise psu with a robust supply back up.

 

I feel you can get very close ref 10 in terms of performance, but it will require a very decent LPS to do so

[treitz3]

On 2/9/2024 at 2:32 AM, Superdad said:

Hi Tom:

Well the latter half of what you report is no surprise—since a clock has to be already be connected and running at the moment power is applied to the EtherREGEN and it does not tolerate even the shortest glitch or loss of clock; such necessitates reapplication of power (though it really does not need a 10 second pause—3 seconds is fine).

 

The real question is why your Mutec clock “resets” it itself and why is such caused by power-on of your power amp.

Perhaps somehow the voltage surge or droop—or some sort of static discharge—occurs when you turn on your amp and that causes a glitch in the clock output. Even a 3 microSecond glitch will cause the EtherREGEN to lose connection. The ‘A’ side might recover but the ‘B’ side will not—until you remove and reapply power.

 

Perhaps you can experiment with where your power amp is plugged into the AC mains.

Feel free to post a diagram of your system and perhaps we will spot another possible source of your issue or have remedy to suggest. Are you using the other outputs of your fancy REF10 SE120 with any other gear?

 

[Dang, I would have been happy to have sold you that top clock!  But just today I took our first REF10 SE120 order—from someone well known here—and he’s also getting an MC3+USB.]

 

Hi, Alex. Thanks for taking the time to address this. Sorry for the delay in answering. It took me a stint to learn Power Point and make it legible enough to figure out how to present how everything is connected. Now that this is done, I'd like to answer your question(s).

 

First off, I would have been more than happy to have been your first customer for the SE 120. That was a long thread I had to read and I wanted to understand each and every thing that was said, as much of the things discussed were new to me. That said, I will be among the first to get the ER Gen. 2! Just waiting on that email bro'!

The pause in power did not happen with the AD clock. I just turned on the amp and everything worked as it should have. The only change I have made was to swap out the clock to the Mutec. This was when the Mutec presented the problem. I do keep the clock on 24/7 and will continue to do so.

The plug for the amp is one a different outlet than the one the clock is, and there is a PS in between the clock and the other outlet. In theory, this *should* prevent any power loss on a power up of the amp. The two outlets are on the same 20 amp circuit though.

I am currently only using one of the clock outputs on the SE 120. All of the other outputs are turned off. I have tried switching outputs and the same thing occurs.

 

[treitz3]

One added note. I can't seem to find any information on the AD clock cable in use, as to whether or not it is a sine wave or a square wave cable. Could this be the *possible* issue here? Evey once in a while, the "lock" will stop blinking on the Mutec, indicating that the signal is "locked" but this only occurs when the amplifier is powered down. When she is powered back up, it resets and I have to do a hard reset (3 seconds won't work, it has to be about 8 to 10 seconds) on the ER.

No issues after that, other than having to place a small flashlight in front of the blinking "lock" light on the output in use. Everything on the clock and cable is hooked up to and 75Ω, FWIW. It is a .8m cable.

 

Tom

[kennyb123]

1 hour ago, treitz3 said:

I can't seem to find any information on the AD clock cable in use, as to whether or not it is a sine wave or a square wave cable.

I can’t recall ever seeing any cable distinguished this way.  Cable quality matters more with square wave so the AD cable might be up to the task, but I doubt that. 

[Superdad]

4 hours ago, treitz3 said:

The pause in power did not happen with the AD clock. I just turned on the amp and everything worked as it should have. The only change I have made was to swap out the clock to the Mutec. This was when the Mutec presented the problem. I do keep the clock on 24/7 and will continue to do so.
The plug for the amp is one a different outlet than the one the clock is, and there is a PS in between the clock and the other outlet. In theory, this *should* prevent any power loss on a power up of the amp. The two outlets are on the same 20 amp circuit though.

Wow Tom, that's quite a diagram of your whole complex system! Nice job.

The RG400 Pro "power supply" you list at the head of everything: Is that one of those Richard Gray giant inductor units?  If so, I'd like you to try removing the Richard Gray box entirely. (Because of the effect of the Richard Gray box on the whole wall circuit, just plugging the Mutec into the wall may not be enough.) I suspect that something is happening when you power on the amp--even though it is not attached to the RG inductor box.

Also, you can try changing clock cables, though I doubt that is the cause.

 

That's all I can think of based on your diagram.

Cheers,

--Alex C.

[treitz3]

AFAIK, it is a bank of 6 huge caps and a small amount of filtering. (The RG 400 Pro).

 

I do have a spare AQ 1000 laying around. I could try this and see if it works. As mentioned in the PM, the Mutec SE 120 finally "locked" onto the signal today. 

 

I am wondering now if this is just simply part of the break in associated with the SE 120. This could be all about nothing...

 

Tom

[BCRich]

9 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

I can’t recall ever seeing any cable distinguished this way.  Cable quality matters more with square wave so the AD cable might be up to the task, but I doubt that. 

@treitz3 I used this cable on a AfterDark Queen Clock, EtherRegen Edition; it is a Square Wave Clock. 

https://www.adark.co/collections/project-giesemann-ocxo/products/afterdark-project-clayx-black-river-carbon-fiber-woven-xlr-cable

The link says XLR in it but it is the Clock cable…

 

Cheers….Mike

[BrianK]

Hi Tom.  If you haven't done so already this contribution from John Swenson might help with some background on the clock cable topic

help understand the 

[DarqueKnight]

On 2/9/2024 at 1:32 AM, Superdad said:

[Dang, I would have been happy to have sold you that top clock!  But just today I took our first REF10 SE120 order—from someone well known here—and he’s also getting an MC3+USB.]

Yes...and it was money well spent! I replaced my AfterDark Trifecta Emperor Double Crown clock with the REF10 SE120. My dCS Puccini word clock was replaced with the MC3+USB. Review coming in a month or so.

 

I wish the MC3+USB had the native capability to accept an external linear power supply. The manufacturer explained that there just wasn't enough room in the case to provide for that and still hit their targeted price point. Fortunately, there are aftermarket modification options available.

[JayDog]

I stumbled upon an Aurender N100 I had stored away today and added it to the system via USB. It only has USB output.

 

I am currently running ethernet via fiber into the Etherregen> Lyngdorf TDAI3400 integrated (built in streamer/TIDAL). The Etherregen is clocked by the Mutec Ref10 Nano.

 

The Aurender also has the capability to stream Tidal as well as an internal HD. As mentioned above, it has USB output only. Would it potentially make an improvement run the Ethergegen to the Aurender N10 and then use a Mutec MC3+ via USB from the Aurender to output to the Lyngdorf integrated? The Nano would then be clocking both the Etherregen and the MC3+. The Lyghdorf integrated has a multitude of input options and can accept any of the outputs from the MC3+. 

 

Down the road I will add a linear power supply for both the Etherregen and the Nano. Any thoughts about this potential set up?

 

Thanks,

J

[Superdad]

On 2/25/2024 at 8:44 PM, JayDog said:

The Aurender also has the capability to stream Tidal as well as an internal HD. As mentioned above, it has USB output only. Would it potentially make an improvement run the Ethergegen to the Aurender N10 and then use a Mutec MC3+ via USB from the Aurender to output to the Lyngdorf integrated? The Nano would then be clocking both the Etherregen and the MC3+. The Lyghdorf integrated has a multitude of input options and can accept any of the outputs from the MC3+. 

 

Hi Jason:

Sorry to be slow in reply (got in two glorious sunny days of spring skiing with my wife and friends--just before this massive storm hit us here in California!).

 

I think your best SQ is still going to be with your Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 on the ‘B’ port of the EtherREGEN—with no other Lyngdorf inputs used (lest you run risk of defeating the EtherREGEN’s active-differential isolation “moat”—as you would with say a USB connection between Lyngdorf and some equipment upstream/‘A’ side).

 

And as for possible implementation of your early Aurender N100 and a Mutec MC3+USB:

Hard to say if Aurender USB > MC3+ via AES (or S/PDIF) > Lyngdorf TDAI-3400’s S/PDIF input would sound better than just Aurender USB > Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 via USB cable.  

The MC3+USB would give you an opportunity to utilize another of your Mutec REF10 Nano’s outputs, and perhaps the Lyngdorf’s AES/SPDIF input will sound better than its USB input—especially with a fantastic fully isolated and reclocked signal from an MC3+USB. 

But all the above is very much dependent upon both the Aurender N100 USB and the qualities of your Lyngdorf’s various inputs.

 

On 2/25/2024 at 8:44 PM, JayDog said:

Down the road I will add a linear power supply for both the Etherregen and the Nano. Any thoughts about this potential set up?

Well you have my comments above about signals and gear, but for a nice linear power supply for EtherREGEN and REF10 Nano I'll urge you to sit tight for the production release (3 months) of JS-4, our triple-regulated, dual-isolated output, 2A/4A, 8 voltage settings from 3.3V~15V. It is going to be spectacular... 

 

 

[kennyb123]

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

I'll urge you to sit tight for the production release (3 months) of JS-4, our triple-regulated, dual-isolated output, 2A/4A, 8 voltage settings from 3.3V~15V. It is going to be spectacular... 

Wow fantastic!   Nice that it goes to 15.

[JayDog]

4 hours ago, Superdad said:

Well you have my comments above about signals and gear, but for a nice linear power supply for EtherREGEN and REF10 Nano I'll urge you to sit tight for the production release (3 months) of JS-4, our triple-regulated, dual-isolated output, 2A/4A, 8 voltage settings from 3.3V~15V. It is going to be spectacular... 

 

 

I just a happen to know an excellent metal worker/fabricator. If you would like to send me a unit for early testing, I will have him make a beautiful, custom case to finish off and enclose the unit. All kidding aside, looks amazing. Looking forward to the release. The JS-4 likes a great linear power supply solution for the Mutec Nano in combination with Etherregen. 

[One and a half]

On 2/26/2024 at 10:07 AM, DarqueKnight said:

The manufacturer explained that there just wasn't enough room in the case to provide for that and still hit their targeted price point. Fortunately, there are aftermarket modification options available.

 

Yes, the internal power supply is 6V with only a very small tolerance of overvoltage, like 100mV (IIRC). The overvoltage solutions with linear power supplies (off the shelf types from Acopian) for example were too slow, and let through a higher voltage, and would fry one chip in particular in milliseconds. That's why the SMPS with a tight voltage regulation is used in the MC3+USB, as well as space restrictions.