Article: Immersive Music Favorites, Part 6

[The Computer Audiophile]

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[bbosler]

I watched the video. I have to disagree that they "really nailed it."

 

They put too much emphasis on the idea of instruments all around the room. . . About 2 minutes in,  the interviewer comments on Miles Davis KOB and says something like "so the bass can come from behind us and the trumpet can be up front." 

 

From my perspective THAT is exactly what immersive audio is NOT supposed to be. Putting instruments where they should not be is not an effective use of the technology. It is a gimmick and that pervasive, incorrect  idea is what keeps many old school 2 channel people from taking it seriously.

 

BTW the Atmos version of KOB does not put the bass behind you. The Atmos channels are used very judiciously. 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 minutes ago, bbosler said:

From my perspective THAT is exactly what immersive audio is NOT supposed to be. Putting instruments where they should not be is not an effective use of the technology. It is a gimmick and that pervasive, incorrect  idea is what keeps many old school 2 channel people from taking it seriously.

Good thing you aren’t in charge of the immersive rule making committee :~)

 

There are no rules. 
 

We only heard audio from the front for a million years because of limitations. Now those limitations are gone. If people can’t get over it, that’s unfortunate for them. They are missing out. Big time. 

[bbosler]

28 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Good thing you aren’t in charge of the immersive rule making committee :~)

 

There are no rules. 

 

You are right.. there are no rules ..... but there is common sense.

 

If you are creating an Atmos mix of a classic recording of a quintet like KOB it is not common sense to put the bass behind you in one channel, the drums behind you in another , the piano above your head, and have the horns swirling all around the room. You are too young to remember,  but that's the kind of gimmickry  we got early on when quadraphonic came out in the early 1970s. It was a bad idea then, it is a bad idea now, and it will always be a bad idea.

 

That's what people my age remember from that time and that is what many incorrectly assume it is today. They don't need to "get over it." They need to be educated about what good immersive audio is. Interviews like this one where they talk about "instruments all over the room" do not educate, they reinforce the misconceptions and fail to show what truly great immersive audio is all about. 

 

You commented on Fremer's thread where he and his minion were dismissing  Atmos. That's what needs to be overcome. This video doesn't help

 

 

 

 

 

[fas42]

Part of the 'answer' to all of this is how you feel music should be experienced: do you want the ideas of the musicians, or the production crew, or yourself, to decide how it's presented ... would the Rolling Stones want you to hear their new tracks as if you were in the centre of the band, them all facing you, playing for you exclusively - or are they fully "old school", liking being heroes on a stage feeding the hordes? And does it matter what they think?

 

No matter how it's presented, the quality has to be top notch. Otherwise it fails - if you spend a lot of the time being made aware of, being irked by limitations of the technology used, then you still haven't got key parts of the mechanism working as well as it needs to ...

[The Computer Audiophile]

47 minutes ago, bbosler said:

 

You are right.. there are no rules ..... but there is common sense.

 

If you are creating an Atmos mix of a classic recording of a quintet like KOB it is not common sense to put the bass behind you in one channel, the drums behind you in another , the piano above your head, and have the horns swirling all around the room. You are too young to remember,  but that's the kind of gimmickry  we got early on when quadraphonic came out in the early 1970s. It was a bad idea then, it is a bad idea now, and it will always be a bad idea.

 

That's what people my age remember from that time and that is what many incorrectly assume it is today. They don't need to "get over it." They need to be educated about what good immersive audio is. Interviews like this one where they talk about "instruments all over the room" do not educate, they reinforce the misconceptions and fail to show what truly great immersive audio is all about. 

 

You commented on Fremer's thread where he and his minion were dismissing  Atmos. That's what needs to be overcome. This video doesn't help

 

 

 

 

 

I hear ya Bruce :~)
 

This is a photo of the best immersive album available today, being recorded. Many people would look at this and dismiss it. Same with Grateful Dead’s Attics with four voices harmonizing from the height channels. I say get over it, but you’re right about more education being the key. 
 

[The Computer Audiophile]

47 minutes ago, fas42 said:

if you spend a lot of the time being made aware of, being irked by limitations of the technology used, then you still haven't got key parts of the mechanism working as well as it needs to

let me know when you can get this “working as well as it needs to.”

 

[bbosler]

1 hour ago, bbosler said:

If you are creating an Atmos mix of a classic recording of a quintet like KOB

 

My apologies, it was a sextet 🥵 (how embarrassing) 

[fas42]

35 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

let me know when you can get this “working as well as it needs to.”

 

 

Everything is evolution. Everything. The old transistor radio did its job of allowing people to be mobile and still be in contact with the world, meaning information and music was available at "the press of a button" ... no-one expected, expects it to be more than that. These days, the technology is still not in place to give you substantially more as a experience, while still allowing you to be mobile - the best would currently be a very high end car sound system, and if otherwise "outside the house" using top notch earplugs, etc, with a well done, compact storage and player device.

 

The inherent limitations of the raw playback chain always have to come into any optimising exercise - it's absurd to spend 10 times what is cost to acquire to make something work well; something like 10, 20% of raw cost is more reasonable.

 

With 2 channel, having something work well enough to do the equivalent of walking up to a mere couple of feet from musicians on a stage is plenty enough of immersive, for some, . Having done this experience with a live big band in full cry some years ago, I can vouch for its effectiveness - not being able to hear your own voice, no matter how loud you shout, in the face of pure acoustic instruments, is quite something .

[JoeWhip]

I fall between Chris and Bruce. I too recall quad. The gimmicks helped kill it along with added expense. When HT debuted and people became more familiar with a 5.1 system, I had more hope for MC music. Then MC SACD came about with too many gimmicky mixes and a lot of audiophiles said no. I had tons of debates about it and frankly did not like the gimmicks and limited my purchases. Then along came Atmos which has way more potential. Great mixes can blow away 2 channel but some mixes just leave 2 channel devotees cold. Too many remember the old days. Now, with the concert photo Chris posted, it makes sense to have more instruments in the rear and side channels. Same with the Snarky Puppy Empire city release. As for most other recordings, I much prefer the sense of space that the Atmos mix provides, the sense or height, scale and separation that the Atmos system provides along with the increased dynamics. The music and soundstage just breathes and sounds more natural and involving. But hey, that is just me.

[Jud]

22 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I hear ya Bruce :~)
 

This is a photo of the best immersive album available today, being recorded. Many people would look at this and dismiss it. Same with Grateful Dead’s Attics with four voices harmonizing from the height channels. I say get over it, but you’re right about more education being the key. 
 

 

What's the album?

 

BTW, I also love viola da gamba. This is a bit off topic for immersive, but there's a fellow named Jordi Savall who is an absolute world treasure and a master of the viola da gamba. There's a beautiful soundtrack album to the French film Tous les Matins du Monde (All the Mornings of the World) that puts his talents on great display.

 

https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/bande-originale-du-film-tous-les-matins-du-monde-montserrat-figueras-pierre-hantai-concert-des-nations-jordi-savall/0829410081665

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

20 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

What's the album?

 

BTW, I also love viola da gamba. This is a bit off topic for immersive, but there's a fellow named Jordi Savall who is an absolute world treasure and a master of the viola da gamba. There's a beautiful soundtrack album to the French film Tous les Matins du Monde (All the Mornings of the World) that puts his talents on great display.

 

https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/bande-originale-du-film-tous-les-matins-du-monde-montserrat-figueras-pierre-hantai-concert-des-nations-jordi-savall/0829410081665

 

Here’s that album. 
 

https://shop.2l.no/en-us/products/reflections-trondheimsolistene?_pos=1&_psq=refle&_ss=e&_v=1.0

[bobfa]

Due to some house construction, I have been limited to headphones for ATMOS.  I used the speakers yesterday to watch Apple's iPhone and Watch updates on my M1 Macbook Air!  Apple used spatial audio in the presentation's soundtrack, significantly enhancing the experience.  

 

The ATOMS release of Jim Croce's 'You Don't Mess Around with Jim' is a real treat for me.  I cannot wait to get the speaker system back up and running.

 

From my limited experience with ATMOS and extracted surround using a Schiit SYN, I have had some of the best listening experiences ever.

 

 

[Kurvenal]

Chris, 

 

Thanks for your latest immersive music recommendations.  I downloaded the Ralph Rousseau Telemann album from TRPTK in Atmos, and it is definitely my favorite TRPTK recording so far.  The sense of the performance space in Atmos is really something.  Just for fun I played the stereo version for comparison, and there really was no comparison.  Even for a solo instrumental performance so much of the listening experience is lost in stereo.  

 

Please keep these coming!

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, Kurvenal said:

Chris, 

 

Thanks for your latest immersive music recommendations.  I downloaded the Ralph Rousseau Telemann album from TRPTK in Atmos, and it is definitely my favorite TRPTK recording so far.  The sense of the performance space in Atmos is really something.  Just for fun I played the stereo version for comparison, and there really was no comparison.  Even for a solo instrumental performance so much of the listening experience is lost in stereo.  

 

Please keep these coming!

I’m so happy you enjoy it and compared the experience. Yes! If people want to reproduce a real event, stereo, invented in the 1950s, is no longer the best way to do it. Listening to Ralph play the viola da gamba, you feel like you’re in the venue and you hear the height of the old building as the sound of a single instrument decays. 
 

More on the way :~)

[bbosler]

 

one thing that's holding back sales, at least for me. I don't know which one to buy. My Trinnov  decodes Atmos and Auro 3D but don't which will be better (if either) .. I'm fine with buying a disc like from 2L, it comes with a variety of formats and I can just plop in the disc. But at € 30,00 for the file I'm not sure which to choose. AND I don't know what player is compatible.

 

I just dropped Roon, Tidal, and Qobuz since I'm doing more vinyl listening lately and all in that was a $600/yr. Going with Apple Music for streaming since I have an Apple TVs hooked my Trinnov and Apple Music as part of a package.

 

can you recommend a format below and a software player? I have a Windows PC using Apple iTunes. I don't think it will play these files?

 

The TRPTK site says "Pretty much our web store’s most popular Spatial Audio format is Auro-3D-encoded files. Essentially, these are 5.1-channel FLAC files,"

 

So I guess the Auro 3D decoder creates the 9.1 from 5.1? If so I'm thinking I want the Auro3D 9.1 Flac files.. but what player ? Should I just keep Roon for this purpose or is there a better option?

 

aarrgghh

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

12 hours ago, bbosler said:

 

one thing that's holding back sales, at least for me. I don't know which one to buy. My Trinnov  decodes Atmos and Auro 3D but don't which will be better (if either) .. I'm fine with buying a disc like from 2L, it comes with a variety of formats and I can just plop in the disc. But at € 30,00 for the file I'm not sure which to choose. AND I don't know what player is compatible.

 

I just dropped Roon, Tidal, and Qobuz since I'm doing more vinyl listening lately and all in that was a $600/yr. Going with Apple Music for streaming since I have an Apple TVs hooked my Trinnov and Apple Music as part of a package.

 

can you recommend a format below and a software player? I have a Windows PC using Apple iTunes. I don't think it will play these files?

 

The TRPTK site says "Pretty much our web store’s most popular Spatial Audio format is Auro-3D-encoded files. Essentially, these are 5.1-channel FLAC files,"

 

So I guess the Auro 3D decoder creates the 9.1 from 5.1? If so I'm thinking I want the Auro3D 9.1 Flac files.. but what player ? Should I just keep Roon for this purpose or is there a better option?

 

aarrgghh

 

 

 

I believe the Trinnov will only decode audio fed into its HDMI interface. In this case, something like an NVidia Shield will be the easiest route for playing these files. I know these work great with Atmos, as @JoeWhip usese one all the time with the MKV file downloads. 

 

While the Atmos says it's 5.1.4, it's actually the same as any other Atmos and it will expand or contract to one's speaker layout. I get full audio in all of my 7.1.4 channels. Auro will be 5.1.4 and only 5.1.4. 

 

I know many others love Auro, but I stick with Atmos as it's the format selcted by the masses and will be around longer and have the most support down the road. Auro has almost disappeared once already. 

 

 

 

[Kurvenal]

5 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I believe the Trinnov will only decode audio fed into its HDMI interface. In this case, something like an NVidia Shield will be the easiest route for playing these files. I know these work great with Atmos, as @JoeWhip usese one all the time with the MKV file downloads. 

 

While the Atmos says it's 5.1.4, it's actually the same as any other Atmos and it will expand or contract to one's speaker layout. I get full audio in all of my 7.1.4 channels. Auro will be 5.1.4 and only 5.1.4. 

 

I know many others love Auro, but I stick with Atmos as it's the format selcted by the masses and will be around longer and have the most support down the road. Auro has almost disappeared once already. 

A few comments:

1) Trinnov is a Roon Ready device, so the audio is decoded via the Trinnov LAN input.  I use Roon to play Auro-3D encoded FLAC files all the time with the Auro-3D decoder selected on the Trinnov.  5.1 FLAC files are decoded as 9.1, and 7.1 FLAC files are decoded as 11.1.  The Trinnov settings in Roon also enable you to swap the rear and side surround channels, which are sometimes not consistent across Auro-3D encoded FLAC files and is also handy for 9.1 recordings so you can choose which surround channels (side vs rear) you want to hear audio from.  

2) Brendon Heinst at TRPTK will set up a custom order for those who are interested in multiple immersive formats of the same recording.  This has made it possible for me to buy the Atmos TrueHD MKV (which I listen to using an Nvidia Shield per Chris’s suggestion) and the Auro-3D FLAC versions of the same album for a very small premium to the purchase price for a single format.  Since I am in the US I also save on the VAT which is included in the listed download price, so all-in the price for both versions ends up being very reasonable.  

3) One question I have for Chris:  when I play a 5.1.4 Atmos recording, it looks to me that I am getting the same levels out of my rear and side surrounds, which I am guessing is how the Atmos decoder upmixes a 5.1.4 recording to 7.1.4 with no object movement (I have seen very few classical recordings with any object movement in the mix).  So maybe a “true” 7.1.4 Atmos recording would start with a larger microphone array and be mixed in a studio with a 7.1.4 configuration, which is possibly a step beyond what some small labels are able to invest for the moment (other than labels dedicated to immersive mixes such as 2L and IAN)?

[bbosler]

37 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I believe the Trinnov will only decode audio fed into its HDMI interface. In this case, something like an NVidia Shield will be the easiest route for playing these files. I know these work great with Atmos, as @JoeWhip usese one all the time with the MKV file downloads. 

 

I'll have to explore that. Do you or Joe have a recommended software player to use with the Shield? I prefer something I can just buy and not subscribe to... or is free

 

I know I can send multichannel 5.1 Flac to the Trinnov via Roon, but if it is encoded with Auro3D I don't know if it will decode it. Atmos via Roon is a no go. (UPDATE as the above got posted as I posted this... question answered.)

 

Good point concerning Atmos vs. Auro. Even though a few of these small labels encode with it, Auro has lost the war like Beta lost to VHS.

 

thanks

 

Any updates on ripping Atmos MKV from BluRays, as in is there an easier way than you outlined previously? I currently just play the discs. I have ripped my SACDs and DVD-As, but the BluRay multi step process to get the audio is more than I care to undertake. 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, Kurvenal said:

1) Trinnov is a Roon Ready device, so the audio is decoded via the Trinnov LAN input.  I use Roon to play Auro-3D encoded FLAC files all the time with the Auro-3D decoder selected on the Trinnov.  5.1 FLAC files are decoded as 9.1, and 7.1 FLAC files are decoded as 11.1.  The Trinnov settings in Roon also enable you to swap the rear and side surround channels, which are sometimes not consistent across Auro-3D encoded FLAC files and is also handy for 9.1 recordings so you can choose which surround channels (side vs rear) you want to hear audio from.  

Great to read! I remember a Trinnov rep telling me they wouldn't route Atmos decoding through anything other than HDMI, but this is great to read about Auro. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Kurvenal said:

3) One question I have for Chris:  when I play a 5.1.4 Atmos recording, it looks to me that I am getting the same levels out of my rear and side surrounds, which I am guessing is how the Atmos decoder upmixes a 5.1.4 recording to 7.1.4 with no object movement (I have seen very few classical recordings with any object movement in the mix).  So maybe a “true” 7.1.4 Atmos recording would start with a larger microphone array and be mixed in a studio with a 7.1.4 configuration, which is possibly a step beyond what some small labels are able to invest for the moment (other than labels dedicated to immersive mixes such as 2L and IAN)?

 

They can mix any speaker configuration they want from even a single microphone and headphones. Not recommended of course, but it's possible :~)

 

There really are no rules to any of this. In addition, finding information on how things work is next to impossible. Dolby has outdated and conflicting documents. Two professionals will give you three different answers. 

 

As one example, some pros say that Atmos objects are lower quality than the bed when streaming because they are all thrown in together at a lower resolution. Other pros use the bed only for LFE, and objects for everything else, and say the quality is the same. 

 

For now, I recommend ignoring many of the specifics and just listening :~)

[bbosler]

15 minutes ago, Kurvenal said:

Brendon Heinst at TRPTK will set up a custom order for those who are interested in multiple immersive formats of the same recording.  This has made it possible for me to buy the Atmos TrueHD MKV (which I listen to using an Nvidia Shield per Chris’s suggestion)

Interesting... that's why I've bought the 2L discs instead of downloading. You can buy the disc which has multiple formats for about the same or less than downloading fewer formats.

The TUVAYHUN discs are €26,00,

to download just the Atmos and Auro is €28,00,

just the Auro is €24,00

Of course with the discs there is shipping to consider)

 

Disc 1	Hybrid SACD MCH 5.1 DSD Stereo DSD RedBook PCM: MQA CD
Disc 2	Pure Audio Blu-ray 2.0 LPCM 192/24 5.1 DTS HD-MA 192/24 7.1.4 Auro-3D 96kHz 7.1.4 Dolby Atmos 48kHz mShuttle: MQA + FLAC + MP3 Region: ABC - worldwide

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

22 minutes ago, bbosler said:

I'll have to explore that. Do you or Joe have a recommended software player to use with the Shield? I prefer something I can just buy and not subscribe to... or is free

 

@JoeWhip what are you using?

 

 

23 minutes ago, bbosler said:

Any updates on ripping Atmos MKV from BluRays, as in is there an easier way than you outlined previously?

 

The ripping process to get an MKV is dead simple. For those of us not using a hardware processor, we have to jump through some hoops afterward. 

 

MakeMKV is the app that can rip the MKV right from the Blu-ray. That MKV will play perfectly with your Trinnov.

 

https://www.makemkv.com

[bbosler]

29 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

MakeMKV is the app that can rip the MKV right from the Blu-ray. That MKV will play perfectly with your Trinnov.

 

 

Not that I doubt you, but before I plop down my $60 for MakeMKV and $200 for a Shield and another $?? for software to play the file, , , , , can someone doing this with a device like the Shield confirm success? 

 

I believe the last time I tried to rip a BluRay it said it was copy protected and I needed a key to unlock it ? That might have included a movie though ??

 

also a bit reluctant to buy a Shield when they haven't released an  updated model in 4 years

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, bbosler said:

 

Not that I doubt you, but before I plop down my $60 for MakeMKV and $200 for a Shield and another $?? for software to play the file, , , , , can someone doing this with a device like the Shield confirm success? 

 

I believe the last time I tried to rip a BluRay it said it was copy protected and I needed a key to unlock it ? That might have included a movie though ??

 

also a bit reluctant to buy a Shield when they haven't released an  updated model in 4 years

 

I can confirm that MakeMKV Blu-ray rips play perfectly on a Shield Pro with the Kodi app. You can use MakeMKV free for a bit I believe. 

 

@JoeWhip has tested this for me with his Shield and processor. 

[bbosler]

23 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I can confirm that MakeMKV Blu-ray rips play perfectly on a Shield Pro with the Kodi app. You can use MakeMKV free for a bit I believe. 

yeah, I used up my free trial last time i tried it. But if it all works $60 isn't that much in the grand scheme. I do have to buy a long HDMI fiber cable too so I can get from my PC to the equipment rack though.

 

also.... since the Trinnov accepts audio via HDMI why would  I need a Shield?