Thoughts on upgrading my 24 year old Bryston amp

[skikirkwood]

In my main listening room I have a pair of B&W 803 speakers from 2000, a 24 year old Bryston 3b amp, a fairly new Schiit Freya pre-amp (which replaced a 24 year old broken Bryston pre-amp), and a variety of Raspberry Pi-based streamers with USB DACs. The two newest DACs are a SMSL DO100 and a Topping D10S, both of which sound incredible. My music sources are 2000 ripped CDs in ALAC, along with Spotify and several other streaming services. I am 65, love music, am very much an objectivist, and believe the popular high-end audio publications such as The Absolute Sound and Stereophile are marketing machines for high-end audio companies.

 

So a while ago I heard about a program Bryston was offering to refurbish amps over 20 years old, which today would be called "vintage". Wow, I'm that old. The details here: https://bryston.com/refurbish/

 

So the tier 1 electrical service is $1,000, and the tier 3 output transistor replacement is $400, for a total of $1,400. The price includes shipping both ways.

 

So here's my question. I would be happy to pay $1,400 to refurbish my "vintage amp". But would I actually hear any sound improvement based upon what I said in the first paragraph here. Alternatively, I could use that $1,400, add $200, and get two Schiit Vidar 2 amps as monoblocks, and connect them over XLR balanced cables to my Freya. How would these sound compared to the refurbished Bryston? What improvement would they be over my current un-refurbished Bryston? Or, I could do nothing. If I go the Schiit route I could return them within 15 days for a 5% restocking fee (plus shipping), but that's a hassle I don't want to go through.

 

I'd love to hear people's thoughts here.

[davide256]

The new thing since 2000 are class D amps. I am pretty happy with the Orchard Audio GaN monoblocks now in my system but there are several competitors in the class D space. Past amps I have owned are Bryston b60 integrated, prima luna integrated and until recently a Hafler DH200 with Musical Concepts mods

[cjf]

5 hours ago, skikirkwood said:

In my main listening room I have a pair of B&W 803 speakers from 2000, a 24 year old Bryston 3b amp, a fairly new Schiit Freya pre-amp (which replaced a 24 year old broken Bryston pre-amp), and a variety of Raspberry Pi-based streamers with USB DACs. The two newest DACs are a SMSL DO100 and a Topping D10S, both of which sound incredible. My music sources are 2000 ripped CDs in ALAC, along with Spotify and several other streaming services. I am 65, love music, am very much an objectivist, and believe the popular high-end audio publications such as The Absolute Sound and Stereophile are marketing machines for high-end audio companies.

 

So a while ago I heard about a program Bryston was offering to refurbish amps over 20 years old, which today would be called "vintage". Wow, I'm that old. The details here: https://bryston.com/refurbish/

 

So the tier 1 electrical service is $1,000, and the tier 3 output transistor replacement is $400, for a total of $1,400. The price includes shipping both ways.

 

So here's my question. I would be happy to pay $1,400 to refurbish my "vintage amp". But would I actually hear any sound improvement based upon what I said in the first paragraph here. Alternatively, I could use that $1,400, add $200, and get two Schiit Vidar 2 amps as monoblocks, and connect them over XLR balanced cables to my Freya. How would these sound compared to the refurbished Bryston? What improvement would they be over my current un-refurbished Bryston? Or, I could do nothing. If I go the Schiit route I could return them within 15 days for a 5% restocking fee (plus shipping), but that's a hassle I don't want to go through.

 

I'd love to hear people's thoughts here.

Hello,

 

If it were me in your situation I would likely lean towards the refurbished route of the old Bryston 3b depending on what all they are replacing during the rebuild. The advertisement .pdf on their website sounds promising with the possibility of an even better sounding device then it was originally due to the use of more modern parts/technologies. Plus you get a new 3yr warranty. But with that said, if they aren't replacing all the typical wear items then I would not proceed. It may be worth asking what they "Are Not" replacing during the rebuild to get a better sense of the value. For example, If they are leaving vintage Caps and the original Power supply in place I would skip this option and look for something else.

 

But in general, my thought is that it may be close to impossible to find an equal quality amp considered new today (especially in terms of chassis related hardware which is not a typical wear item. ie..Its built like a tank) for the same amount of money that the rebuild would cost you. Even at $1400, close to the original cost back in the day, it seems like a bargain given the new $1400 choices available today IMO. 

 

Taking the original cost of that Amp based on a published review from Stereophile back in 2005 ($1565) which measured pretty good and received a Class B rating at the time you would need to spend about $2400 in todays money for an equal quality Amp.

 

 Also, the only real problem with looking for something on the Used market for the same money is that you may be in the same boat but potentially in a worse situation because at that point you would not have a known good newly rebuilt unit on hand for the same amount of money.

 

If you had a larger budget and were looking for a clean slate new Amp then my reply would be quite different to the one above.

[audiobomber]

Which model of 3B do you own? If it is the original 3B, turn it into a boat anchor, they sounded awful. The 3B-NRB was better, but they didn't get it right until the 3B-ST.

 

The 3B-ST is a good amp, but I'm not sure how it would compare to the Schiit, so I can't advise on that. 

[botrytis]

18 hours ago, skikirkwood said:

In my main listening room I have a pair of B&W 803 speakers from 2000, a 24 year old Bryston 3b amp, a fairly new Schiit Freya pre-amp (which replaced a 24 year old broken Bryston pre-amp), and a variety of Raspberry Pi-based streamers with USB DACs. The two newest DACs are a SMSL DO100 and a Topping D10S, both of which sound incredible. My music sources are 2000 ripped CDs in ALAC, along with Spotify and several other streaming services. I am 65, love music, am very much an objectivist, and believe the popular high-end audio publications such as The Absolute Sound and Stereophile are marketing machines for high-end audio companies.

 

So a while ago I heard about a program Bryston was offering to refurbish amps over 20 years old, which today would be called "vintage". Wow, I'm that old. The details here: https://bryston.com/refurbish/

 

So the tier 1 electrical service is $1,000, and the tier 3 output transistor replacement is $400, for a total of $1,400. The price includes shipping both ways.

 

So here's my question. I would be happy to pay $1,400 to refurbish my "vintage amp". But would I actually hear any sound improvement based upon what I said in the first paragraph here. Alternatively, I could use that $1,400, add $200, and get two Schiit Vidar 2 amps as monoblocks, and connect them over XLR balanced cables to my Freya. How would these sound compared to the refurbished Bryston? What improvement would they be over my current un-refurbished Bryston? Or, I could do nothing. If I go the Schiit route I could return them within 15 days for a 5% restocking fee (plus shipping), but that's a hassle I don't want to go through.

 

I'd love to hear people's thoughts here.

The Schiit will not sound as good as the Bryston, period.

[PeterG]

I'm with cjf.  In addition to his points on the refurb likely being great bang for the buck, you apparently like the sound of the Bryston in your system.  Even if the Vidars, just for example, are better in the absolute sense, you still have the question of how they will do with your speakers

[audiobomber]

11 minutes ago, botrytis said:

The Schiit will not sound as good as the Bryston, period.

It's hard to imagine it would not sound better than the original 3B, which was hard and glassy, opaque (opposite of transparent), with a flat soundstage.

[botrytis]

9 minutes ago, audiobomber said:

It's hard to imagine it would not sound better than the original 3B, which was hard and glassy, opaque (opposite of transparent), with a flat soundstage.

 

I find the Schiit -mediocre and not much power. Sounds anemic to me. I compared Schiit to Benchmark - the Schiit went away.

[audiobomber]

18 hours ago, skikirkwood said:

a fairly new Schiit Freya pre-amp (which replaced a 24 year old broken Bryston pre-amp)

I'm curious about this. Which Bryston preamp died, BP20? BP25? .5B? How does the Freya sound in comparison? I'm very familiar with older Bryston, never heard a Schiit amp or preamp.

[audiobomber]

8 minutes ago, botrytis said:

 

I find the Schiit -mediocre and not much power. Sounds anemic to me. I compared Schiit to Benchmark - the Schiit went away.

The OP mentions monoblocks, which would be double the power of a single amp.

[davide256]

1 minute ago, botrytis said:

 

I find the Schiit -mediocre and not much power. Sounds anemic to me. I compared Schiit to Benchmark - the Schiit went away.

I can't say that any Schiit gear I've bought has been a keeper, nice starting components but not a destination. Class AB has been around a while,

amps from 20+ years ago will be less resolving than newer updated versions but a component like the Bryston will have more "heft" in the bass

and sense of ease  vs the Schiit. Plenty of folks recommended the new Bryston 3B cubed when I was looking but I doubt the OP is being offered

that level of upgrade

[botrytis]

10 minutes ago, audiobomber said:

The OP mentions monoblocks, which would be double the power of a single amp.

 

Still anemic compared to others I tried. I had a Schiit Amp in my system the Schitt was gone faster than the others. My 30-watt class A Pioneer M-22 sounds muscular compared the Schiit amp I tried.

[audiobomber]

1 minute ago, botrytis said:

 

Still anemic compared to Schitt and others. I had both in my system the Schitt was gone faster than the others. My 30-watt class A Pioneer M-22 sounds muscular compared the Schiit amp I tried.

That's disappointing to hear. The price is appealing and such favourable reviews.

[botrytis]

2 hours ago, audiobomber said:

That's disappointing to hear. The price is appealing and such favourable reviews.

 

My ears, what I am hearing. I mean people like the sound, so they sell.

 

I never trust reviews anymore. It is more like a beauty contest, and who know what was paid for in the back room.

[skikirkwood]

Based upon what I'm hearing so far I am leaning toward refurbishing the Bryston. Having had it for 24+ years, I clearly like the sound of it. But I also like Bryston as a brand, with their 20 year warranty, and think what they are doing here is fantastic. We live in such a throw-away culture, there's something really cool about getting a piece of electronics you bought 24 years ago brought up to spec as new.

 

But I guess if I bought something new that is now considered "vintage", that would make me vintage as well. :)

[firedog]

5 hours ago, skikirkwood said:

Based upon what I'm hearing so far I am leaning toward refurbishing the Bryston. Having had it for 24+ years, I clearly like the sound of it. But I also like Bryston as a brand, with their 20 year warranty, and think what they are doing here is fantastic. We live in such a throw-away culture, there's something really cool about getting a piece of electronics you bought 24 years ago brought up to spec as new.

 

But I guess if I bought something new that is now considered "vintage", that would make me vintage as well. :)

If you like the amp and it fits your system, I'd lean toward the refurbish. But I agree with the poster who asked, "what isn't being replaced?". It wasn't clear to me from the Bryston page that they are replacing the caps. If they don't, it doesn't seem like it's much of a refurbish - so they must be replacing them, right? 

 

I'd call Bryston and talk to them a bit about how close to "new" this makes your amp and if it is likely it will continue working at spec for many years after the refurbish. Obviously they can't guarantee it will, but they can tell you if it is likely. Assuming it is, it sounds like a good deal. 

[Norton]

There’s nothing particularly novel in what Bryston are doing here,  other than marketing it- many  long established “high end” manufacturers will service/upgrade older amps in house.  But if you like the amp it may be worth doing and you may be more than just pleasantly surprised by the improvement in SQ - it’s easy to get used to slowly deteriorating performance over the years.  But you do need to check that caps will be replaced as that is the most obvious thing needed with age.

 

But, I would strongly urge you to try and hear a Purefi  or Hypex  based power amp in your own system before you proceed - $1400 would be a significant contribution to the the price of a new SOTA class D amp.

[davide256]

8 hours ago, firedog said:

If you like the amp and it fits your system, I'd lean toward the refurbish. But I agree with the poster who asked, "what isn't being replaced?". It wasn't clear to me from the Bryston page that they are replacing the caps. If they don't, it doesn't seem like it's much of a refurbish - so they must be replacing them, right? 

 

I'd call Bryston and talk to them a bit about how close to "new" this makes your amp and if it is likely it will continue working at spec for many years after the refurbish. Obviously they can't guarantee it will, but they can tell you if it is likely. Assuming it is, it sounds like a good deal. 

My impression is that the circuit board design changes for the "cubed" series are whats critical,  wondering if any Bryston fans can chime in here?

[Racerxnet]

15 hours ago, skikirkwood said:

Based upon what I'm hearing so far I am leaning toward refurbishing the Bryston. Having had it for 24+ years, I clearly like the sound of it. But I also like Bryston as a brand, with their 20 year warranty, and think what they are doing here is fantastic. We live in such a throw-away culture, there's something really cool about getting a piece of electronics you bought 24 years ago brought up to spec as new.

 

But I guess if I bought something new that is now considered "vintage", that would make me vintage as well. :)

You can ask at audiocircle where the president of Bryston posts. Mike is a great guy and will answer any question you may have. 

 

Mak

[skikirkwood]

7 hours ago, Racerxnet said:

You can ask at audiocircle where the president of Bryston posts. Mike is a great guy and will answer any question you may have. 

 

Mak

 

Thanks, I just found this thread: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=182379.0 and will be asking for details such as will they replace the capacitors.

[skikirkwood]

Here's what I got back from Bryston:

 

Hi Jim,

Thanks for contacting Bryston.

If you are paying for Option 1 and 3 ($1400) then ALL Caps will be replaced in the unit.

All Output Transistors will be replaced with the more modern version.

All switches will also be replaced (they can oxidize/deteriorate over time and loose proper contact)

 

The things that DONT get replaced are basically the Metal Work, the Transformer(s) and the original PCB boards themselves... as the worn components are removed and new ones added.
There are obviously some other components like small resistors scattered throughout that don't need to be replaced.

 

We also clean up all the dust/dirt grime and re-bias the unit to get running lean and cool again 

[cjf]

7 hours ago, skikirkwood said:

Here's what I got back from Bryston:

 

Hi Jim,

Thanks for contacting Bryston.

If you are paying for Option 1 and 3 ($1400) then ALL Caps will be replaced in the unit.

All Output Transistors will be replaced with the more modern version.

All switches will also be replaced (they can oxidize/deteriorate over time and loose proper contact)

 

The things that DONT get replaced are basically the Metal Work, the Transformer(s) and the original PCB boards themselves... as the worn components are removed and new ones added.
There are obviously some other components like small resistors scattered throughout that don't need to be replaced.

 

We also clean up all the dust/dirt grime and re-bias the unit to get running lean and cool again 

Doesn't sound like a bad deal all in all given the above but I'm not sure why they wouldn't just replace the Transformer(s) also. If you go the rebuild route it may be worth asking about why the Transformer isn't being replaced and if the customer can request that it be replaced anyway, even if it costs a little more.

 

Maybe they can't find a source for an equivalent replacement Transformer or in doing so it would jump the rebuild price beyond it being worthwhile? Is that why the rebuild warranty is only extended 3 more years because that would cover the remaining life expectancy of the old Transformer?

 

Just speculating here but might be worth asking about.

[botrytis]

Heck, I had 1979 Pioneer M-22 rebuilt and it was worth it. If the OP likes the Bryston, just rebuild it and enjoy.

[skikirkwood]

I just made the $1,400 payment. I love the amp, and love the idea of refurbishing it so it might sound even better than new.

 

Now I have to figure out what to do with the broken 24 year old Bryston pre-amp. I really don't want to spend a lot of time on it. If someone paid for shipping I would send it to them at no charge.

[Racerxnet]

On 1/18/2023 at 10:21 AM, davide256 said:

My impression is that the circuit board design changes for the "cubed" series are whats critical,  wondering if any Bryston fans can chime in here?

I wish Bryston would do the same for the 7BSST series amps as well. I use 2 to run the mid/high panels on the Genesis G-2. They make a great amp on have been around for a long time. Their amps are well known in pro audio and broadcasting. 

 

MAK