Article: Objective and Subjective Review Of My 7.1.4 Immersive Audiophile System

[Desertpilot]

Thank you for posting this thread and including Mitch's thoughts.  Mitch is working with me right now to "tame" my 5.1 system, using Audiolense XO, through an ExaSound multichannel DAC (S88).  I'm very excited to hear what his DSP filters can do for my system.  My music is classical surround (nowadays, I typically download the DXD 24/352.8 surround version).  I love what I get now but anxious to hear with his filters.

 

Marcus

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, Desertpilot said:

Thank you for posting this thread and including Mitch's thoughts.  Mitch is working with me right now to "tame" my 5.1 system, using Audiolense XO, through an ExaSound multichannel DAC (S88).  I'm very excited to hear what his DSP filters can do for my system.  My music is classical surround (nowadays, I typically download the DXD 24/352.8 surround version).  I love what I get now but anxious to hear with his filters.

 

Marcus

Hi Marcus, @mitchco’s work is as important as any component in the system. I hope you enjoy it. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

9 hours ago, Mantheunknown said:

Great article Chris,

 

Could you please elaborate on how you integrate/use Hapi Mk2 and Anubis.  What feeds it/them and I suppose they feed the amps.  Have you listened to DSD 256 through them.  Your opinion?

Thank you

Cheers

 

 

I'm happy to discuss all of this. I love it! However, the full details are coming in an article I have in the queue. 

 

The short version is this: I have both a MacBook Pro and my CAPS Twenty  computer as sources for the system. Everything uses Ravenna over Ethernet. I've configured two sources on the Anubis, one for each computer. I can select the source with the tap of a finger on the Anubis front screen (sitting next to my listening chair). The sources are setup as Dolby 7.1.4 configurations within the Anubis menu. Anubis does the volume control as well. It's like a preamp, but before the DAC. It can also be thought of as an extension of the DAC.

 

The Anubis sends the audio to the HAPI MK2, which is just setup to convert digital to analog and connects straight to the amplifiers. 

 

This is how my setup looks.

 

 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 hours ago, Geoffrey Armstrong said:

Thanks Chris for this very thorough latest instalment from yourself and Mitch on your Immersive system. Peter McGrath certainly has the experience to tune by ear. I had a long chat with him at the Munich show where he shared some valuable words of wisdom with me.

 

From Mitch's comments it's clear that although DSP is necessary, he was careful to keep it to a minimum.

 

The next point you made is particularly interesting too me…

 

With the Wilson Alexias you, of course, have a full range speaker and as Mitch noted he ensured all the other non-bass producing speakers have been set to go as low as they're capable of. Firstly I will just note that there is a school of thought that advises to hand over as much bass as possible to a subwoofer(s) so the other speakers don't need to work as hard. Perhaps though this isn't a concern for the Wilsons as they're designed so well.

 

Secondly in addition to your full range Alexias, of course, you also have your Wilson Audio Lōkē subwoofer, and this is being used as the LFE (low frequency effects channel) only.

 

In my case my Avantgarde Trios need the short Basshorns to become full range speakers. The Trios despite their size or rather because of their size reach to 100hz and so are regarded as satellite speakers. In terms of frequency reach alone they could be regarded similar to bookshelf speakers, which need a sub.

 

The pair of Short Basshorns can accept either the speaker input, extended from the Trios or an XLR input. For my MCH system I use the XLR input fed from my Exasound DAC. I found it was a pain to keep switching between Speaker input and XLR input when I go between MCH and Stereo sources though, because it means toggling a switch at the rear of the Basshorns and because of their position close to the corners, this is tricky to reach on one of the Basshorns. My solution has been to blend the front left and right channels 1 & 2 into the LFE channel 4, attenuated by 24db using HQPlayer's Matrix Pilepline tool. For two channel sources I actually prefer this to the speaker feed.

 

Then my other dilemma was that I didn't want this blend to occur when I actually play MCH sources, thinking the bass is present on the LFE channel; but as you've pointed out that is not, or at least usually not the case. LFE is for additional effects only, at least with Atmos.

 

That explains why some of the Apple Spatial music I've been listening to sounded a little lightweight (including George Harrison). So thanks again. Now I can be lazy and use the blend at all times.

 

My only concern is that if I encounter recordings where most of the bass is sent to the LFE channel, I could encounter excessive bass. So far that's not been a problem though and this change to include the blend is sounding better.

 

A lot of traditional MCH recordings are 5 channel anyway and are missing the .1 channel, so they would definitely require this blend.

 

That goes to show how inconsistent MCH/Immersive recordings are. We've always had inconsistency with recordings from their production through mixing and mastering. Now with Immersive/MCH those inconsistencies are multiplied.

 

On the positive side though, as you've detailed in your subjective listening report, Immersive can better allow us to appreciate music we may not have appreciated or under appreciated up to now.

 

For me it's almost becoming a requirement for my full enjoyment of classical music. I'm not so sure about other genres though.

 

Hi Geoffrey, interesting times indeed! While Atmos has been around for ten years in video, Atmos music is still very new. If we only consider Atmos music in high end audio, it's in its infancy, with unlimited potential. I honestly believe we are in beginning another golden age of audio playback. The high end isn't the niche pushing a heavy rock up hill this time. We are accepting what the masses have decided is the standard, Atmos, and perfecting it. This is a recipe for success.

 

@mitchco sent me this video during the configuration of my system. It details the LFE channel and why certain decisions are made on the content creation side. Really interesting. 

 

 

[Geoffrey Armstrong]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Hi Geoffrey, interesting times indeed! While Atmos has been around for ten years in video, Atmos music is still very new. If we only consider Atmos music in high end audio, it's in its infancy, with unlimited potential. I honestly believe we are in beginning another golden age of audio playback. The high end isn't the niche pushing a heavy rock up hill this time. We are accepting what the masses have decided is the standard, Atmos, and perfecting it. This is a recipe for success.

 

@mitchco sent me this video during the configuration of my system. It details the LFE channel and why certain decisions are made on the content creation side. Really interesting. 

 

 

Hi Chris, I tend to agree. With Apple behind Atmos music, is could really take off. Thanks for sharing the video. Interesting indeed, and it has to be admitted there is inconsistency on the consumer side too.

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, Geoffrey Armstrong said:

Hi Chris, I tend to agree. With Apple behind Atmos music, is could really take off. Thanks for sharing the video. Interesting indeed, and it has to be admitted there is inconsistency on the consumer side too.

Inconsistency indeed. I exchanged email with Morten from 2L this morning, and he said the jury is still out on the "right" level for the LFE. 

[Geoffrey Armstrong]

BTW if anyone's hungry for a further source of immersive audio, I used this software a while back to decode the Ambisonic signals which are present on almost all Nimbus CDs to 5.1:

 

http://pspatialaudio.com

 

The results aren't the same as Atmos or even traditional 5.1, of course; but surprisingly pleasing all the same.

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Bert at The Spirit of Turtle just released some lossless TrueHD Atmos downloads. I purchased and am downloading now. 
 

https://spiritofturtle.com/collections/9-1-binaural-headphone-dolby-atmos

[bbosler]

6 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

12 hours ago, bbosler said:

he one Chris mentioned above

 

 

Expand  

Make sure you got the Blu-ray, not the SACD as pictured. 

Expand  

Make sure you got the Blu-ray, not the SACD as pictured. 

well CRAP !! so I just ordered the Amazon Blu-ray too... on a bright note I can compare them, but thinking the 5.1 mix on the Blu-ray is probably the same as the SACD... 

 

I am finding I really like how the Trinnov upmixes 5.1 and 2 channel to Auro 3D so I have hope. I know the purist cringe at the thought of an upmix... but it sounds great

 

I see "All Things Must Pass" in Atmos on Apple Music so the future is looking good

 

 

 

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

@The Computer Audiophile Sorry if I had missed the information, where in your setup does the Dolby Atomos decoding happen before it is passed on to the convolver?

[The Computer Audiophile]

24 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

@The Computer Audiophile Sorry if I had missed the information, where in your setup does the Dolby Atomos decoding happen before it is passed on to the convolver?

Yes, before the convolver. 12 channels of PCM are sent to the convolver. 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

11 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Yes, before the convolver. 12 channels of PCM are sent to the convolver. 

I should have been more clear, which software is responsible for this decoding? Is Roon able to decode Atmos to PCM?

[The Computer Audiophile]

8 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

I should have been more clear, which software is responsible for this decoding? Is Roon able to decode Atmos to PCM?

macOS decodes Dolby Digital Plus (lossy), and the Dolby Reference Player decodes TrueHD Atmos (lossless). 

 

I’m doing something additional that I’ll explain in another article. 
 

 

[Geoffrey Armstrong]

Just want to correct a mistake I made in the comments to your previous article. When discussing the crackling sounds I heard on the Gautier Capuçon, Emotions disc. I heard this at very low volumes and also occasionally on other Atmos recordings. The recordings are fine of course. I had made a mistake in selecting the LNS15 ditherer in HQPlayer, forgetting this was just 48khz material. I've changed it to Gauss1 and the crackling has gone 😀

[garrardguy60]

One additional point about All Things Must Pass, which might of value to you, Chris, as a George Harrison newbie. As an old boomer, I grew up with the original ATMP vinyl and for the past 20 years have mostly listened to it via the 30th anniversary CD released in 2000.

 

If you're coming to ATMP for the first time with the new, 50th anniversary release, even if you're just listening in two-channel, you're getting a slightly but significantly different experience in that Giles Martin did the following in the remix: He noticeably elevated both George's vocals and the bass on all tracks.

 

This new mix has been criticized in a lot of places (a number of "real" critics and many folks on SHF), but I personally love the new mix. The critics I think have been approaching it as, pick one or the other. I don't see it that way. I see the new mix as delivering a new perspective on an old friend. 

 

Anyway, so I know that the  older versions of ATMP are not available in 5.1 or Atmos. However, since you're exploring George's work, I thought this would be of interest. (FYI, from what I can tell, the old/new taxonomy on streaming services is: Spotify has the new one  as ATMP 50th anniv and the "original" as ATMP 2014 remix.)

 

BTW, ATMP is considered to be a not particularly well recorded album (in terms of, for want of a better phrase, hi-resolutionness). This just shows you that music is as important as sound quality. Also, ex post facto, George was said not to be a fan of the "wall of sound" approach that was used on ATMP (he worked with Phil Spector), but there weren't any/enough original bare tracks to remix it as a non-wall of sound album. (I believe this was recorded on 8-track machines. Eight track reel to reel at 30 ips, not 8-track tapes under your car seat.)

 

Finally, I concur with an earlier poster, you definitely should check out the Concert for Bangladesh. There's both an album and a video of the full concert.

 

Finally, finally, if you have Apple TV+, I recommend episode 1 of '1971: The Year That Music Changed Everything," That episode focuses mainly on John Lennon's politics, Marvin Gaye and the protests against the war in Vietnam, which may not be your cup of tea, but that's not my point. You can skip thru all that stuff, and seek out the 5 or 10 minute segment where they talk about George, and show good original footage of him preparing for the Concert and what a big deal it was. It was the first big benefit concert, the template that Live Aid and all others followed, in the same way that the Beatles originated large venue rock concerts six years earlier with their Shea Stadium gig.

 

Hope this is of interest!

 

EDIT: Salient point, which I forgot to note, is that Concert for Bangladesh is relevant because George is doing his ATMP songs, not his Beatles stuff.

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 hours ago, garrardguy60 said:

One additional point about All Things Must Pass, which might of value to you, Chris, as a George Harrison newbie. As an old boomer, I grew up with the original ATMP vinyl and for the past 20 years have mostly listened to it via the 30th anniversary CD released in 2000.

 

If you're coming to ATMP for the first time with the new, 50th anniversary release, even if you're just listening in two-channel, you're getting a slightly but significantly different experience in that Giles Martin did the following in the remix: He noticeably elevated both George's vocals and the bass on all tracks.

 

This new mix has been criticized in a lot of places (a number of "real" critics and many folks on SHF), but I personally love the new mix. The critics I think have been approaching it as, pick one or the other. I don't see it that way. I see the new mix as delivering a new perspective on an old friend. 

 

Anyway, so I know that the  older versions of ATMP are not available in 5.1 or Atmos. However, since you're exploring George's work, I thought this would be of interest. (FYI, from what I can tell, the old/new taxonomy on streaming services is: Spotify has the new one  as ATMP 50th anniv and the "original" as ATMP 2014 remix.)

 

BTW, ATMP is considered to be a not particularly well recorded album (in terms of, for want of a better phrase, hi-resolutionness). This just shows you that music is as important as sound quality. Also, ex post facto, George was said not to be a fan of the "wall of sound" approach that was used on ATMP (he worked with Phil Spector), but there weren't any/enough original bare tracks to remix it as a non-wall of sound album. (I believe this was recorded on 8-track machines. Eight track reel to reel at 30 ips, not 8-track tapes under your car seat.)

 

Finally, I concur with an earlier poster, you definitely should check out the Concert for Bangladesh. There's both an album and a video of the full concert.

 

Finally, finally, if you have Apple TV+, I recommend episode 1 of '1971: The Year That Music Changed Everything," That episode focuses mainly on John Lennon's politics, Marvin Gaye and the protests against the war in Vietnam, which may not be your cup of tea, but that's not my point. You can skip thru all that stuff, and seek out the 5 or 10 minute segment where they talk about George, and show good original footage of him preparing for the Concert and what a big deal it was. It was the first big benefit concert, the template that Live Aid and all others followed, in the same way that the Beatles originated large venue rock concerts six years earlier with their Shea Stadium gig.

 

Hope this is of interest!

 

EDIT: Salient point, which I forgot to note, is that Concert for Bangladesh is relevant because George is doing his ATMP songs, not his Beatles stuff.

 

 

Wow, thanks so much for all the information! Invaluable. 

[Jud]

6 hours ago, garrardguy60 said:

One additional point about All Things Must Pass, which might of value to you, Chris, as a George Harrison newbie. As an old boomer, I grew up with the original ATMP vinyl and for the past 20 years have mostly listened to it via the 30th anniversary CD released in 2000.

 

If you're coming to ATMP for the first time with the new, 50th anniversary release, even if you're just listening in two-channel, you're getting a slightly but significantly different experience in that Giles Martin did the following in the remix: He noticeably elevated both George's vocals and the bass on all tracks.

 

This new mix has been criticized in a lot of places (a number of "real" critics and many folks on SHF), but I personally love the new mix. The critics I think have been approaching it as, pick one or the other. I don't see it that way. I see the new mix as delivering a new perspective on an old friend. 

 

Anyway, so I know that the  older versions of ATMP are not available in 5.1 or Atmos. However, since you're exploring George's work, I thought this would be of interest. (FYI, from what I can tell, the old/new taxonomy on streaming services is: Spotify has the new one  as ATMP 50th anniv and the "original" as ATMP 2014 remix.)

 

BTW, ATMP is considered to be a not particularly well recorded album (in terms of, for want of a better phrase, hi-resolutionness). This just shows you that music is as important as sound quality. Also, ex post facto, George was said not to be a fan of the "wall of sound" approach that was used on ATMP (he worked with Phil Spector), but there weren't any/enough original bare tracks to remix it as a non-wall of sound album. (I believe this was recorded on 8-track machines. Eight track reel to reel at 30 ips, not 8-track tapes under your car seat.)

 

Finally, I concur with an earlier poster, you definitely should check out the Concert for Bangladesh. There's both an album and a video of the full concert.

 

Finally, finally, if you have Apple TV+, I recommend episode 1 of '1971: The Year That Music Changed Everything," That episode focuses mainly on John Lennon's politics, Marvin Gaye and the protests against the war in Vietnam, which may not be your cup of tea, but that's not my point. You can skip thru all that stuff, and seek out the 5 or 10 minute segment where they talk about George, and show good original footage of him preparing for the Concert and what a big deal it was. It was the first big benefit concert, the template that Live Aid and all others followed, in the same way that the Beatles originated large venue rock concerts six years earlier with their Shea Stadium gig.

 

Hope this is of interest!

 

EDIT: Salient point, which I forgot to note, is that Concert for Bangladesh is relevant because George is doing his ATMP songs, not his Beatles stuff.

 

 

George Harrison’s website used to offer a 24/96 ATMP download with more dynamic range than other versions, but it doesn’t seem to be available on the site anymore. I do like the GM version in spite of its being louder, since you can hear George better.

[firedog]

On 7/19/2022 at 10:14 PM, PeterG said:

Wow--super!

 

On George Harrison--absolutely!  And I share your odd love of I'd Have You Anytime (can't figure out why...)  I recommend Concert for Bangladesh, Get Back (the documentary), and Let It Be (the new 5 or 6 disc version).  The documentary in particular will make you shake your head--a genius repeatedly dissed by greater geniuses...

Get George's "Early Takes". Demo versions of songs or early arrangements. Some just George and a guitar. It shows off that he really was  good singer, in spite of his admittedly limited voice. Great initimate music. 

[firedog]

15 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Wow, thanks so much for all the information! Invaluable. 

ATMP:

There was a 2010 24/96 version released - quite nice sounding, IMO. AFAIR, this was done by the Abbey Road people.

In 2014 the Harrison family released a new 24/96 version which they supervised as part of a George box set. Not as good, IMHO. 

Unfortunately, when the 2014 version came out, the 2010 version was taken off the market. 

The 2010 version has a DR of 12, the 2014 version has a DR of 9.

If you want the "original" in hi-res mastering, the 2010 version is the one to get, if you can somehow find it. 

 

Personally, I prefer the GM 50th version. You can simply hear George and the various  elements more clearly than all the other versions. 

 

[Jud]

10 hours ago, firedog said:

Get George's "Early Takes". Demo versions of songs or early arrangements. Some just George and a guitar. It shows off that he really was  good singer, in spite of his admittedly limited voice. Great initimate music. 

There are demos on the deluxe version of ATMP, and I’d have to say on the rave-ups like “What Is Life?”, Spector’s version sounds much stronger. (Though I agree GM had the right idea bringing George’s voice forward. I won’t fault Spector for the bass because of the limitations of LPs.)

[esimms86]

Chris, how cool would it be if you could partner up with videographer/audiophile Jana Dagdagan to document your system. As I'm sure you're aware, Jana used to work for Stereophile magazine and, more recently, has been working with John Darko and others. Here is an example of Jana's beautiful and painstakingly thorough work:

 

 

And if you're wondering how well surround sound music reproduction can be captured with a binaural dummy head, then you should check out the following video from around 8:15 to 12:20(you can ignore the rest, consisting of a product pitch in French):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7bGrmY0FZQ

 

Short of having an Audiophilestyle open house, this is as close as the rest of us might come to experiencing your system.

 

 

 

[fas42]

Jana may do a good job of capturing the sound of a system; but she chooses poor performing rigs to do her work on, IME. This is another example ... the SQ of that setup is downright awful ...

[esimms86]

I’m not sure that her dummy head mic’s were the culprit given that these were the TOTL Devore Reference speakers in John Devore’s presumably dialed in listening room. OTOH, the video was made with John’s only pair of the speakers just 24 hours before packing up and shipping to RMAF, so things may have been too rushed. Either way, the video was awesome, and PP Garcia’s video shows the way for how to record a Dolby Atmos presentation using binaural mics and a dummy head.  I also expect that Jana’s expertise (and equipment?) are superior to what they were 4 years ago when video was uploaded. Anyway, the point is, great things are possible if you’re looking to share the experience with a wider but quite knowledgeable audience.

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 hours ago, esimms86 said:

Chris, how cool would it be if you could partner up with videographer/audiophile Jana Dagdagan to document your system. As I'm sure you're aware, Jana used to work for Stereophile magazine and, more recently, has been working with John Darko and others. Here is an example of Jana's beautiful and painstakingly thorough work:

 

 

And if you're wondering how well surround sound music reproduction can be captured with a binaural dummy head, then you should check out the following video from around 8:15 to 12:20(you can ignore the rest, consisting of a product pitch in French):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7bGrmY0FZQ

 

Short of having an Audiophilestyle open house, this is as close as the rest of us might come to experiencing your system.

 

 

 

I’ve always like her videos, and I’m not a video guy. I’d love to do this with her. 

[fas42]

It's not the speakers that are the problem, per se - I looked up YT for other videos, by anyone, using that brand, and in every one I listened to the SQ was quite superior to that of Jana's capture, for whatever reason ...