Article: Moving To The B&W 802 D4

[MHWilliford]

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[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi @MHWilliford, thanks so much for the guest write-up of your new B&W 802 D4! I'll always have a soft spot for these speakers, as they were my second pair of real high end speakers. I had the Nautilus 802 and loved them. When I moved into a smaller place a couple years after college I had to sell them, in favor of a headphone system. That was a sad day. 

 

I'm happy to read the 802s are an even better speaker today than when I had them. 

[botrytis]

Interesting. I have heard the D3 and D4, side by side, at a local dealer and came away with the D3 was better. I felt the D4, was just too treble forward and piercing, for my ears. The D3 seemed more balanced. This was all done on the same equipment, all McIntosh.

 

That said, everyone has different likes. I am happy the OP likes them.

 

Nice, insightful read.

[MHWilliford]

29 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Hi @MHWilliford, thanks so much for the guest write-up of your new B&W 802 D4! I'll always have a soft spot for these speakers, as they were my second pair of real high end speakers. I had the Nautilus 802 and loved them. When I moved into a smaller place a couple years after college I had to sell them, in favor of a headphone system. That was a sad day. 

 

I'm happy to read the 802s are an even better speaker today than when I had them. 

It was my pleasure Chris.  Thank you for having me.  I am hoping to acquire the new Arender A15 sometime in the next few months and maybe we can do a guest column on that addition to my system.  It might be particularly interesting to readers in that I will be simultaneously exploring the sonic benefits of transferring streamer/server duties from my PC to the Aurender (are those benefits real to my ears?) as well as pitting the Aurender's internal DAC (which will reportedly allow filter adjustments on both the digital processing and analog output stages) against the DA2 that is built into my McIntosh C2700.  Thank you again for the opportunity, and for building and maintaining this site.

[botrytis]

I have a soft spot for stand mount speakers, I am looking forward to hearing the 805 D4's, which I haven't yet.

[MHWilliford]

44 minutes ago, botrytis said:

Interesting. I have heard the D3 and D4, side by side, at a local dealer and came away with the D3 was better. I felt the D4, was just too treble forward and piercing, for my ears. The D3 seemed more balanced. This was all done on the same equipment, all McIntosh.

 

That said, everyone has different likes. I am happy the OP likes them.

 

Nice, insightful read.

This is one of the most relevant and objective comments I have ever read in post reactions or discussion forums.  Part of my migration to the 802D4's is that I initially auditioned 802D3's late last summer, just as the D3's were no longer in production or in stock (the pair I listened to were special editions with the high-gloss wood finish, and were not what I wanted from a furniture perspective, otherwise I'd have brought them home with me).  I agree that they combined the silky highs of my previous 804D2's and the very cohesive and present bass of the 802D4's.  Unfortunately for me, buying D3's was not an option.  I also think Bowers & Wilkins did all of us who's spouses weigh-in on speaker aesthetics a big favor by ditching the D3's clunky combined oval-shaped bass grill for the D4's individual grills.  It is a big improvement to my eyes.  But back to the essence of your comment - if I could do a test and potentially opt for the older tweeter tuning, would I?  I might.  I would have to listen to a spectrum of the various genres and listening levels I normally consume, but it is possible.  The fact that I now feel my DAC needs to be optimization may be proof, but then again it may be proof that my amplification and speakers have now significantly exceeded the level of my source (streaming through home PC) and DAC (the C2700's built-in DAC).  This is where I intend to upgrade next.  To that end, do you recall the source and DAC that was used in your listening session?  Thanks so much for the comment - very provocative.

[botrytis]

1 minute ago, MHWilliford said:

This is one of the most relevant and objective comments I have ever read in post reactions or discussion forums.  Part of my migration to the 802D4's is that I initially auditioned 802D3's late last summer, just as the D3's were no longer in production or in stock (the pair I listened to were special editions with the high-gloss wood finish, and were not what I wanted from a furniture perspective, otherwise I'd have brought them home with me).  I agree that they combined the silky highs of my previous 804D2's and the very cohesive and present bass of the 802D4's.  Unfortunately for me, buying D3's was not an option.  I also think Bowers & Wilkins did all of us who's spouses weigh-in on speaker aesthetics a big favor by ditching the D3's clunky combined oval-shaped bass grill for the D4's individual grills.  It is a big improvement to my eyes.  But back to the essence of your comment - if I could do a test and potentially opt for the older tweeter tuning, would I?  I might.  I would have to listen to a spectrum of the various genres and listening levels I normally consume, but it is possible.  The fact that I now feel my DAC needs to be optimization may be proof, but then again it may be proof that my amplification and speakers have now significantly exceeded the level of my source (streaming through home PC) and DAC (the C2700's built-in DAC).  This is where I intend to upgrade next.  To that end, do you recall the source and DAC that was used in your listening session?  Thanks so much for the comment - very provocative.

 

The B&W's are a bargain, on the high end (for me meaning Wilson, Magico, etc.) I put them in the same category.

 

Thanks for the reply, I cannot comment on what I do not know about. I look forward to what you discover along the way.

[MHWilliford]

5 minutes ago, botrytis said:

I have a soft spot for stand mount speakers, I am looking forward to hearing the 805 D4's, which I haven't yet.

I did have an opportunity to listen to a pair of 805D4's the day I went in to order my 802's.  They were extremely impressive.  I still can't believe the bass they were able to produce.  I honestly had to ask my dealer if a sub was in play.  Not to say this would make your RELs irrelevant, but for someone who needed to or wanted to go without a sub in even a medium-sized room, I would say go for it.  That said, the tweeters I believe to be identical, though they may be voiced differently.  I understand you caution around edginess, and of course would not make a purchase of this magnitude without an audition.

[botrytis]

I don't need subs, in my room (my office) with the Revels. They do go plenty deep, but bought the subs, when the Revels were in our front room listening area, which is like 20 ft by 25 ft.  I decided to be selfish and keep them in my office, the subs were moved up with them.

 

The Revels were my most expensive purchase I have done for audio. 

 

 

[MHWilliford]

1 hour ago, botrytis said:

I don't need subs, in my room (my office) with the Revels. They do go plenty deep, but bought the subs, when the Revels were in our front room listening area, which is like 20 ft by 25 ft.  I decided to be selfish and keep them in my office, the subs were moved up with them.

 

The Revels were my most expensive purchase I have done for audio. 

 

 

Just a bit more follow-up on the sound signature of the D4's vs. D2's/D3's.  I was trying to pay particular attention to the high-end and what kind of reaction I was having to the music this morning, and predictably it really varies with music selection and recording quality.  This is why I believe these speakers to be telling monitors.  Examples for consideration:  The Doobie Brothers Toulouse Street album includes tracks that can come forward with some electric guitar brightness in places - not cringe-worthy mind you, but feeling perhaps a little over-emphasized.  Some of the vocals on the other hand came alive as never before.  I found that dialing-in -2dB treble through the C2700 produced a good balance.  Conversely, Ed Harlow's Two Views is just stunning and as near-perfect a recording as I can ever remember listening to with the treble flat.  Likewise Supertramp's Crime of the Century (Qobuz 2014 remaster - 192/24) is stunning, with a great tonal balance achieved at -1dB treble.  Again, the level of overall detail revealed compared with their 804D2 predecessors is exactly what you'd expect jumping two frame sizes and two generations of technology advancement - good and immediately perceivable.  I say all of this to reinforce the conclusions of my review and also recognize your observation regarding D3 vs. D4.  It depends on what you are listening to! :)

[botrytis]

It could have been the room also. I do recognize that. It was just interesting how strident one was from the other (D4 vs D3). I also realize we all hear things differently, based on experience.  I have had issues with, for example, older horn-based systems, which seem to give me headaches. So, I think I am more sensitive than most.

 

I think that is why I do appreciate the Be Revel Tweeters as they do not seem to be that way. The new Yamaha ones, yes, Focal no.

[MHWilliford]

Room treatment is worthy for inclusion in the discussion. I feel that more and more people are accepting this as legit.  No rational person can make snake oil claims against room treatment - it is measurable and immediately palpable.  My decidedly non-audiophile wife (except that she endorses my sickness) walked into the room after adding 8 simple 2ftx4ftx2in panels and said "Wow - that's an amazing difference - I'm coming in here to make calls and think."  And she has.  How does this relate to the discussion?  One - room treatments will make a difference in perceived highs "loudness" for the simple reason that fewer reflected sound waves reaching your ears is going to reduce the probability that any given listener reaches their individual overload threshold.  Two - I did not mention this before, but I used to toe my D2's in to intersect at a point about 6 inches behind my head.  This was in the 804D2 instruction manual, and I found it necessary to get the imaging and highs definition that I wanted.  With the 802D4's - no - not necessary at all - very minor if any toe-in has been required, with the upside being the soundstage is much broader, extending well outside the listening triangle.

[botrytis]

I agree. They are not snake oil. Treatments, now DSP, are both used to deal with room problems. Both are viable but I think DSP is still on a learning curve. 

 

I have always said, a good audio system in a bad room will sound bad. A mediocre system in a good room will sound better. It is all physics.

[Gavin1977]

Would be interested to hear comparison against other brands of speakers you’ve owned… did you consider Wilson’s for example?

[PeterG]

Thanks for the great review.  I had 805D3's for years, and your words ring true--100% accurate, monitor like, with a bit of a sacrifice on warmth

[MHWilliford]

3 hours ago, Gavin1977 said:

Would be interested to hear comparison against other brands of speakers you’ve owned… did you consider Wilson’s for example?

Hi Gavin - this is a great question, and I went into this upgrade process open-minded and with several contenders - some that I will go so far to say I'd sold myself on in advance before listening, and yet the Bowers & Wilkins 802 D4's came out on top for my taste.  First were the Wilson Audio Sabrina X.  I was ready to make the switch based on reputation, build quality, and so many references to Wilson in other's reference systems. I found that they had a very nice, balanced sound, but were not a big jump in bass performance over the 804D2's and were quite a bit brighter.  Bear in mind, I have hyper-acousis in my left ear, so I am very sensitive to sibilance, even at lower listening levels.  It should also be noted that I am a critical low-level listener.  Rarely do my listening levels exceed 75 dB.  When I listened to the Sabrina X, I also listened to Wilson-Benesch, which I liked quite a bit though I found the value proposition steep for my wallet, and the sound maybe a little lean, but very much a speaker that impressed me and would suit certain ears well.

 

Then there was a brief lay-off in the process due to life's other priorities, but the next demo session was even better in several ways.  Number one, I was pitting 802D3's (the D4's had not yet been announced) against Magico A3's and also Sonus-Faber Olympica-Nova III's.  Again, I was fully-prepared to be won-over and walk out of the store that day with a pair of any of these contenders.  Number two, my son, who is a musician (guitar and viola) and possessing much better hearing than me came along for the trip (we visited some guitar shops as well :) ).  This gave me a neutral reference (he has not yet fallen victim to any serious brand loyalties) to check myself against, and we'd prepared a pretty comprehensive track list of things we'd been listening to on a regular basis that were intended to test upper registers, lower registers, and different genres.  Oh - the third and fourth things about this audition that made it very relevant was the amplification that was used (McIntosh C2700 and MC462) is identical to what I have, and even the listening room was very similar in size and finish - smallish at about 12ft x 12ft, and furnished like a TV room, which is the same as our home listening space.

 

The short story is the 802D3's bested the A3's and the Olympica-Nova III's in bass performance with ease.  My son and I looked at each other with reality-check expressions a couple of times as if to ask each other how there could be such a gap at similar price points, but there clearly was.  The A3 bass was a bit more rounded and would occasionally seem boomy by comparison, which makes no sense given that it is a sealed cabinet design, but this was clearly heard by both my son and me.  The Nova III bass performance was closer to the 802's but ultimately I felt less agile but still a worthy contender.   With regard to highs the Magicos were very nice, maybe just a touch less resolving, but certain to sound better to some sets of ears. The Nova III highs were quite a bit more subtle and just too far back in the sound for me, but again, might be just right to some.  

[The Computer Audiophile]

17 minutes ago, MHWilliford said:

Hi Gavin - this is a great question, and I went into this upgrade process open-minded and with several contenders - some that I will go so far to say I'd sold myself on in advance before listening, and yet the Bowers & Wilkins 802 D4's came out on top for my taste.  First were the Wilson Audio Sabrina X.  I was ready to make the switch based on reputation, build quality, and so many references to Wilson in other's reference systems. I found that they had a very nice, balanced sound, but were not a big jump in bass performance over the 804D2's and were quite a bit brighter.  Bear in mind, I have hyper-acousis in my left ear, so I am very sensitive to sibilance, even at lower listening levels.  It should also be noted that I am a critical low-level listener.  Rarely do my listening levels exceed 75 dB.  When I listened to the Sabrina X, I also listened to Wilson-Benesch, which I liked quite a bit though I found the value proposition steep for my wallet, and the sound maybe a little lean, but very much a speaker that impressed me and would suit certain ears well.

 

Then there was a brief lay-off in the process due to life's other priorities, but the next demo session was even better in several ways.  Number one, I was pitting 802D3's (the D4's had not yet been announced) against Magico A3's and also Sonus-Faber Olympica-Nova III's.  Again, I was fully-prepared to be won-over and walk out of the store that day with a pair of any of these contenders.  Number two, my son, who is a musician (guitar and viola) and possessing much better hearing than me came along for the trip (we visited some guitar shops as well :) ).  This gave me a neutral reference (he has not yet fallen victim to any serious brand loyalties) to check myself against, and we'd prepared a pretty comprehensive track list of things we'd been listening to on a regular basis that were intended to test upper registers, lower registers, and different genres.  Oh - the third and fourth things about this audition that made it very relevant was the amplification that was used (McIntosh C2700 and MC462) is identical to what I have, and even the listening room was very similar in size and finish - smallish at about 12ft x 12ft, and furnished like a TV room, which is the same as our home listening space.

 

The short story is the 802D3's bested the A3's and the Olympica-Nova III's in bass performance with ease.  My son and I looked at each other with reality-check expressions a couple of times as if to ask each other how there could be such a gap at similar price points, but there clearly was.  The A3 bass was a bit more rounded and would occasionally seem boomy by comparison, which makes no sense given that it is a sealed cabinet design, but this was clearly heard by both my son and me.  The Nova III bass performance was closer to the 802's but ultimately I felt less agile but still a worthy contender.   With regard to highs the Magicos were very nice, maybe just a touch less resolving, but certain to sound better to some sets of ears. The Nova III highs were quite a bit more subtle and just too far back in the sound for me, but again, might be just right to some.  

What a fun process. Making the selection of new speakers enjoyable and sharing it with your son, is fantastic. 

[PeterG]

4 hours ago, Gavin1977 said:

Would be interested to hear comparison against other brands of speakers you’ve owned… did you consider Wilson’s for example?

Like MHW, I've logged extended time with both B&Ws and Wilsons.  His review nails the difference--B&Ws are more monitor-like, Wilsons are prettier.  It's reasonable for a person to choose either, but each person really needs to listen for themselves before choosing--they have different personalities.  I also agree that the lower end Wilsons (Sabrinas and TuneTots) need a subwoofer.

[jcbenten]

1 hour ago, MHWilliford said:

Hi Gavin - this is a great question, and I went into this upgrade process open-minded and with several contenders - some that I will go so far to say I'd sold myself on in advance before listening, and yet the Bowers & Wilkins 802 D4's came out on top for my taste.  First were the Wilson Audio Sabrina X.  I was ready to make the switch based on reputation, build quality, and so many references to Wilson in other's reference systems. I found that they had a very nice, balanced sound, but were not a big jump in bass performance over the 804D2's and were quite a bit brighter.  Bear in mind, I have hyper-acousis in my left ear, so I am very sensitive to sibilance, even at lower listening levels.  It should also be noted that I am a critical low-level listener.  Rarely do my listening levels exceed 75 dB.  When I listened to the Sabrina X, I also listened to Wilson-Benesch, which I liked quite a bit though I found the value proposition steep for my wallet, and the sound maybe a little lean, but very much a speaker that impressed me and would suit certain ears well.

 

Then there was a brief lay-off in the process due to life's other priorities, but the next demo session was even better in several ways.  Number one, I was pitting 802D3's (the D4's had not yet been announced) against Magico A3's and also Sonus-Faber Olympica-Nova III's.  Again, I was fully-prepared to be won-over and walk out of the store that day with a pair of any of these contenders.  Number two, my son, who is a musician (guitar and viola) and possessing much better hearing than me came along for the trip (we visited some guitar shops as well :) ).  This gave me a neutral reference (he has not yet fallen victim to any serious brand loyalties) to check myself against, and we'd prepared a pretty comprehensive track list of things we'd been listening to on a regular basis that were intended to test upper registers, lower registers, and different genres.  Oh - the third and fourth things about this audition that made it very relevant was the amplification that was used (McIntosh C2700 and MC462) is identical to what I have, and even the listening room was very similar in size and finish - smallish at about 12ft x 12ft, and furnished like a TV room, which is the same as our home listening space.

 

The short story is the 802D3's bested the A3's and the Olympica-Nova III's in bass performance with ease.  My son and I looked at each other with reality-check expressions a couple of times as if to ask each other how there could be such a gap at similar price points, but there clearly was.  The A3 bass was a bit more rounded and would occasionally seem boomy by comparison, which makes no sense given that it is a sealed cabinet design, but this was clearly heard by both my son and me.  The Nova III bass performance was closer to the 802's but ultimately I felt less agile but still a worthy contender.   With regard to highs the Magicos were very nice, maybe just a touch less resolving, but certain to sound better to some sets of ears. The Nova III highs were quite a bit more subtle and just too far back in the sound for me, but again, might be just right to some.  

Thanks for this writeup.  Comparisons like this are the reason I read audio reviews .... I keep reading to find this level of detail.  You almost have me interested in the brand again!

 

The best pair of speakers I ever heard were a pair of B&W stand mounts from 30+ years ago .... smallish little boxes that just sounded phenomenal.  Precise, clear, etc...  I can still hear and picture them.  I have no idea of the model but they cost $1100 or so at the time.  My brother has D5s from 10 years ago and the way he has them setup, they are no comparison. But he likes them and that is all that matters.  The only ones that came close were a giant pair of Magnepans that were up in the shop when I purchased my Linns.  They were great but even my brick ears could tell the listening window was narrow.

 

Look forward to further writeups from you.  Take care.

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

One of my favorite speakers of all time. 
 

[MHWilliford]

44 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

One of my favorite speakers of all time. 
 

Lord have Mercy!!!  That is just sick!!!  I can feel the thump looking at them!

[cjf]

Nice write up.

 

It would be interesting to hear the 802D3 next to the new 802D4's. I'm a B&W fan myself. I owned and very much enjoyed a pair of 803D2's for several years using several different forms of amplification.

 

Before purchasing my current pair of speakers I compared them directly with the 802D3's. I walked into the dealer pretty much convinced that I was going to buy the 802D3's having just owned the 803D2 for several years.

 

It was an interesting experience to ultimately end up being seduced by the Magico S3's instead. For my musical/listening preferences I found the Magico to be a bit more laid back and less forward sounding than the 802D3 was. At first I listen of the D3 this forwardness (to my ears) was very exciting and impressive to hear but ultimately I chickened out getting them in fear of that more forward and exciting sound being too much of a good thing over the long haul and during longer listening sessions (4-6hrs).

 

One of my favorite speakers has always been the 802 from D1 & D2 era so I always enjoying reading others thoughts on the newer generation D3 & D4 models to get an idea on a larger audiences opinion compared to my experiences hearing them.

 

I was going to ask what the Amp was being used but I think you mention MC462 in your reply elsewhere. Seems a popular choice for the B&W's.

[MHWilliford]

1 hour ago, cjf said:

Nice write up.

 

It would be interesting to hear the 802D3 next to the new 802D4's. I'm a B&W fan myself. I owned and very much enjoyed a pair of 803D2's for several years using several different forms of amplification.

 

Before purchasing my current pair of speakers I compared them directly with the 802D3's. I walked into the dealer pretty much convinced that I was going to buy the 802D3's having just owned the 803D2 for several years.

 

It was an interesting experience to ultimately end up being seduced by the Magico S3's instead. For my musical/listening preferences I found the Magico to be a bit more laid back and less forward sounding than the 802D3 was. At first I listen of the D3 this forwardness (to my ears) was very exciting and impressive to hear but ultimately I chickened out getting them in fear of that more forward and exciting sound being too much of a good thing over the long haul and during longer listening sessions (4-6hrs).

 

One of my favorite speakers has always been the 802 from D1 & D2 era so I always enjoying reading others thoughts on the newer generation D3 & D4 models to get an idea on a larger audiences opinion compared to my experiences hearing them.

 

I was going to ask what the Amp was being used but I think you mention MC462 in your reply elsewhere. Seems a popular choice for the B&W's.

Great thoughts - I would love to hear those Magicos of yours.  I love their approach to designing and manufacturing loudspeakers. Yes, in a perfect world I wish I could have listened to the D3 and D4 side by side and picked the one I liked the best.  It may well have been the D3 - BUT - due the timing, the D3 was not really an option (only one set on the floor in the "wrong" finish) and the D4s were not shipping yet. I took the leap of faith that the sound would not be too much different, and mostly, I think that is right.  The D4s do strike me as a bit more forward and bright, but that really is only a problem on certain recordings or genres.  In these cases, about -3dB of treble adjustment puts me in a good place.  I am really excited to try using different combinations of digital and analogue filters once I get my hands on an Aurender A15.

[mfsoa]

Although my brother is a dealer, he hasn't been able to put any of the "D4s" out yet. 

 

Congrats on the speakers!!

 

I am very eager to hear the 805s as I am thinking about a change - I've done and enjoyed my time w/ Maggies but my wife loves more traditional room-loading kind of bass. Fortunately I get to hear Sonus Faber, Revel and soon-to-be B&W standmounts.  Those Olympica Nova 1s are puuurrrrty.

 

I spend 0% of my listening time with my face 1 meter directly in front of the tweeter so I don't care how that measures. I'm sure I've lost more HF hearing response than any amount that B&W may have tailored in.

 

Time to have fun and not fuss

[MHWilliford]

42 minutes ago, mfsoa said:

Although my brother is a dealer, he hasn't been able to put any of the "D4s" out yet. 

 

Congrats on the speakers!!

 

I am very eager to hear the 805s as I am thinking about a change - I've done and enjoyed my time w/ Maggies but my wife loves more traditional room-loading kind of bass. Fortunately I get to hear Sonus Faber, Revel and soon-to-be B&W standmounts.  Those Olympica Nova 1s are puuurrrrty.

 

I spend 0% of my listening time with my face 1 meter directly in front of the tweeter so I don't care how that measures. I'm sure I've lost more HF hearing response than any amount that B&W may have tailored in.

 

Time to have fun and not fuss

Thank you and trust me, after waiting 5 months from order placement, I have been happy to have these beauties in hand!  The 805D4 standmounts lasted one day in my local hifi store (small town of 100k), and they were just extremely impressive.  You wife will love how they look as well!