T+A DAC 200

[OE333]

1 hour ago, davidv100 said:

Hello,
I am a bit puzzled about what exactly is Dolby Atmos and Apple Spatial Audio.
How does this translate in bits and bit rate : Is this 24/192 or is there no link ?
Are these formats supported by DAC200 ?

I understand at least one thing : when listening to Apple Spatial Audio thru my DAC200 and Hifiman HE1000 V3 headphone, the sound will obviously not change direction when I turn my head. But even more obviously, I do not care at all about that.

So, my question is only about the sound quality :
1) what are these formats exactly ?
2) are they supported by DAC200 ?

Thank you very much

David  

 

Dolby Atmos / Apple Spacial Audio are multichannel formats.

You will need a multichannel Audio Processor to use such formats.

DAC200 is a stereo 2-channel DAC. It does not support multichannel playback.

 

[DonaldM]

Recently I got the Dac200. After a few days playing the sound improved considerably. Up till now I used temporarily a Neo Stream as a dac, the difference in sound is beyond compare. So very happy with my purchase!
With the Neo Stream I found dsd512 sounded best. I was wondering if I could use the Neo as an intermediate: Audirvāna upsampling to dsd512, via upnp to the Neo Stream and then via digital out usb to the Dac200, just to see if this sounds better or not. If I do that I see in the Ifi app that everything is working, but if I choose dac200 out in the Ifi app, the Ifi app states that the dac200 only supports Dop. The app changes automatically from the selected dsddirect out to dac200 Dop. The Dac200 somehow gives a signal to the Neo Stream that it is Dop only… The Dac200 displays no signal with this setting.

Any ideas if and how this can be altered? I also submitted a ticket to Ifi, but they don’t have a clue. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 hours ago, davidv100 said:

Hello,
I am a bit puzzled about what exactly is Dolby Atmos and Apple Spatial Audio.
How does this translate in bits and bit rate : Is this 24/192 or is there no link ?
Are these formats supported by DAC200 ?

I understand at least one thing : when listening to Apple Spatial Audio thru my DAC200 and Hifiman HE1000 V3 headphone, the sound will obviously not change direction when I turn my head. But even more obviously, I do not care at all about that.

So, my question is only about the sound quality :
1) what are these formats exactly ?
2) are they supported by DAC200 ?

Thank you very much

David  

This may be helpful to you. 
 

 

[OE333]

@DonaldM:

The DAC200 is supported as native DSD sink in all Linux kernels 5.x and higher. I don't know which kernel version ifi is using in their streamers, but if they use an older kernel, then this kernel needs to be patched to work with DAC200.

If you have a contact person at ifi you can send me the contact information via PM. I will then try to contact ifi to check if this problem can be solved.

 

 

 

 

[DonaldM]

On 12/13/2023 at 5:53 PM, OE333 said:

@DonaldM:

The DAC200 is supported as native DSD sink in all Linux kernels 5.x and higher. I don't know which kernel version ifi is using in their streamers, but if they use an older kernel, then this kernel needs to be patched to work with DAC200.

If you have a contact person at ifi you can send me the contact information via PM. I will then try to contact ifi to check if this problem can be solved.

 

 

 

 

@OE333: thank you very much for your efforts. 

[jonniema]

On 12/13/2023 at 4:53 PM, OE333 said:

@DonaldM:

The DAC200 is supported as native DSD sink in all Linux kernels 5.x and higher. I don't know which kernel version ifi is using in their streamers, but if they use an older kernel, then this kernel needs to be patched to work with DAC200.

If you have a contact person at ifi you can send me the contact information via PM. I will then try to contact ifi to check if this problem can be solved.

 

 

 

 

 

Is there a difference in sound quality using native DSD over the provided T+A WIN ASIO drivers vs the Linux kernel? I see that you use the linux version... so that may be an indication they might be similar.

This would be a good incentive for me to move my NUC OS from WIN10 to an Ubuntu OS (ROCK would not support a future HQP installation which i want to leave in the open)

 

I could not do this with my previous DAC8DSD as it did not support native dsd with linux i believe.

 

[DonaldM]

1 hour ago, jonniema said:

 

Is there a difference in sound quality using native DSD over the provided T+A WIN ASIO drivers vs the Linux kernel? I see that you use the linux version... so that may be an indication they might be similar.

This would be a good incentive for me to move my NUC OS from WIN10 to an Ubuntu OS (ROCK would not support a future HQP installation which i want to leave in the open)

 

I could not do this with my previous DAC8DSD as it did not support native dsd with linux i believe.

 

I am afraid I cannot be of any assistance. I have a Mac mini as music server. The question discussed above was about the unix kernel used in the Neo Stream itself. As the Mac doesn’t support dsd above 256 (over Dop only) I wanted to use the Neo Stream as an interface between Mac and Dac200 and use dsd512 via UPnP. Sound wise I had a good impression when I used the Neo Stream as a standalone Dac with dsd512. The interface should be possible if the Neo Stream has kernel version 5.x, the current kernel version of the Neo Stream 4.4 doesn’t support this interface. 
With the assistance of @OE333 Ifi is looking to patch the Neo Stream. 
Donald

[Rovo]

12 hours ago, jonniema said:

 

Is there a difference in sound quality using native DSD over the provided T+A WIN ASIO drivers vs the Linux kernel? I see that you use the linux version... so that may be an indication they might be similar.

This would be a good incentive for me to move my NUC OS from WIN10 to an Ubuntu OS (ROCK would not support a future HQP installation which i want to leave in the open)

 

I could not do this with my previous DAC8DSD as it did not support native dsd with linux i believe.

 

I am using a HQPlayer NAA Endpoint in combination with a T+A DAC 8 DSD. First I used it with OS Windows Server 2019. Later I flashed the T+A DAC 8 DSD to be able to use Linux. I then used HQPlayer NAA OS (Linux). In my setup I have a clear preference for the Linux setup. Somehow some background noise/nervousness has gone. I did not know it was there until I changed from Windows to Linux. I am upsampling to DSD 512. 

[Woolf]

@OE333

Hi,

can You please give us some more detailed info about the internal filtering (upsampling?, if yes how much, what about DSD files).

Thanks in advance!

Wolfram

[OE333]

6 hours ago, Woolf said:

@OE333

Hi,

can You please give us some more detailed info about the internal filtering (upsampling?, if yes how much, what about DSD files).

Thanks in advance!

Wolfram

 

If the input signal is PCM, then the incoming stream is synchronously upsampled to 705,6 / 768 kSps (depending on wheather the sample rate of the incoming signal is a multiple of 44.1 or 48 kHz).

For this upsampling there is a choice of four different upsampling algorithms (FIR filter short, FIR filter long, pure Bezier Interploation, Bezier+IIR). Furthermore there is a non-oversampling mode in which the internal PCM upsampling is bypassed and the incoming stream is directly sent to the DAC stage. This NOS mode is intended for digital sources with internal upsampling and with high PCM outut sample rates.

 

DSD signals are are directly sent to the T+A True-1-Bit converter stage. For DSD signals only the internal resynchronisation (for jitter attenuation) is active, but there is no internal processing or updsampling for DSD. DSD signals in native or DoP format are accepted with sample rates from DSD64 up to DSD1024.

 

 

[Woolf]

Thanks @OE333 !!

The reason I asked, I have three positions to up-/oversample (Roon nucleus plus, Auralic Aries G2.2 and the DAC200) and I am always wandering, where this job should be done?

According DSD: does it make sense to convert the PCM files in the Nucleus to DSD and send them as DSD to the DAC200?

And one more: To set any filter on the DAC200 has no influence to the DSD files?

Thanks for Your great support!

Wolfram

[OE333]

13 hours ago, Woolf said:

The reason I asked, I have three positions to up-/oversample (Roon nucleus plus, Auralic Aries G2.2 and the DAC200) and I am always wandering, where this job should be done?

According DSD: does it make sense to convert the PCM files in the Nucleus to DSD and send them as DSD to the DAC200?

 

 

I would send PCM files unaltered from the Nucleus to DAC200 and leave the PCM upsampling to the DAC200.

I wouuld recommend the following settings in DAC200: OVS = BEZier 1 or BEZier 2, FILTER=OFF.

 

DSD files could be upsampled in Nucleus for example to DSD256.

 

An other way to go would be to convert everything (PCM and DSD) to DSD256 or higher in your Nucleus and use the DAC200 as a pure DSD DAC.

 

 

What is better is of course always a question of personal taste and also depends on the other components of your system.

I would recommend to start with one of the above setups and then alter settings (only one at a time) and see if what works best for you.

 

 

13 hours ago, Woolf said:

And one more: To set any filter on the DAC200 has no influence to the DSD files?
 

 

That is correct.

 

 

[camott]

Hello @OE333, happy owner of a DAC 200 here. Couple of questions:

 

1. what is the gain of the preamp section? I notice that when I switch to line out and use an external line stage with unity gain I have much less headroom. So just curious - can’t find gain number in any specs …

 

2. would it be possible to modify the firmware to remember line/variable output on a per input basis? Reason being that I am thinking of using the DAC 200 in a home theater bypass setup - the HT analogue would ideally be line out and music usb/digital variable. Having this take effect simply when switching inputs would be very helpful for obvious reasons.

 

Thanks!

[camott]

1 hour ago, camott said:

would it be possible to modify the firmware to remember line/variable output on a per input basis? Reason being that I am thinking of using the DAC 200 in a home theater bypass setup - the HT analogue would ideally be line out and music usb/digital variable. Having this take effect simply when switching inputs would be very helpful for obvious reasons.

I should have read your recent posts more carefully - I see that you already have this planned … 

• Home Theater Pass-Through for the analog input

Fantastic! When do you anticipate this being available? I will order the requisite programming cable asap.

[OE333]

21 hours ago, camott said:

Fantastic! When do you anticipate this being available? I will order the requisite programming cable asap.

 

I have included the HT Pas-Through in my latest firmware version. I am currently testing it and I think I can release it by the end of this week.

 

Please note:

T+A will include the HT Pass-Through in the next official firmware version V 1.20.

This official version will also be available in short time and it can be installed with the help of a MP200.

 

 

[camott]

11 minutes ago, OE333 said:

 

I have included the HT Pas-Through in my latest firmware version. I am currently testing it and I think I can release it by the end of this week.

 

Please note:

T+A will include the HT Pass-Through in the next official firmware version V 1.20.

This official version will also be available in short time and it can be installed with the help of a MP200.

 

 

 

Great news. Did T+A ever release a ready-to-go USB -> E2Link  programming adaptor to update firmware? Can't find it on the webshop. I can build my own but happy to spend a few more dollars to get a prebuilt one ... 

[OE333]

Just now, camott said:

 

Great news. Did T+A ever release a ready-to-go USB -> E2Link  programming adaptor to update firmware? Can't find it on the webshop. I can build my own but happy to spend a few more dollars to get a prebuilt one ... 

 

 

... it should be on the web-shop .   --  I will ask my colleagues to check why it is not there.

For the time being you can contact the T+A service dept. [e-service(at)ta-hifi.com] they will be able to give you more details on price and delivery options.

 

[OE333]

22 hours ago, camott said:

 what is the gain of the preamp section? I notice that when I switch to line out and use an external line stage with unity gain I have much less headroom. So just curious - can’t find gain number in any specs …

 

 

At volume setting "0" the gain for RCA in --> RCA out is 13.5 dB (= factor 4.73)

Gain for RCA --> XLR is 19.5 dB (factor 9.46)

 

At VOLume= -13  the RCA/RCA gain is almost zero (+0.5dB to be exact).

 

 

 

[OE333]

@camott:

 

My plan is to have the volume setting fixed @ -13  In HT Pass-Through mode  - so the overall gain of the DAC200 will be close to zero.

 

An other option would be to make the HTPT gain adjustable - but maybe this would be too much...

I see the danger that the HTPT volume in the DAC200 might get altered accidentally causing the front channels to be out of balance with the other channels.

 

For this reason I currently tend to have a fixed HTPT volume setting --- or do you see any reason to have it variable ?

 

[camott]

1 hour ago, OE333 said:

At volume setting "0" the gain for RCA in --> RCA out is 13.5 dB (= factor 4.73)

Gain for RCA --> XLR is 19.5 dB (factor 9.46)

 

At VOLume= -13  the RCA/RCA gain is almost zero (+0.5dB to be exact).

 

So if I am going USB --> XLR via preamp then I assume it's 19.5dB gain at "0"?

 

42 minutes ago, OE333 said:

My plan is to have the volume setting fixed @ -13  In HT Pass-Through mode  - so the overall gain of the DAC200 will be close to zero.

 

Can't the pass-through mode effectively use the same path as when "line" is selected for pre output? which I assume bypasses the preamp stage entirely? or maybe "line" bypass is not available for RCA/analog input?

 

42 minutes ago, OE333 said:

An other option would be to make the HTPT gain adjustable - but maybe this would be too much...

I see the danger that the HTPT volume in the DAC200 might get altered accidentally causing the front channels to be out of balance with the other channels.

 

For this reason I currently tend to have a fixed HTPT volume setting --- or do you see any reason to have it variable ?

 

I think it should be fixed at 0 gain, ideally passing preamp altogether as per above. All AV receivers have per channel balance/volume offset control. Adding that ability to the DAC200 will just complicate things imo.

[camott]

re. DIY adaptor - it looks like this company waveshare uses legit PL2303(xx) chips and keeps up with new revisions (latest is PL2303GS). I have ordered one of these https://www.waveshare.com/pl2303-usb-uart-board-type-c.htm from Amazon and will solder ethernet to the 4 pins (+100 ohm resistors on TX/RX).

[ericuco]

1 hour ago, camott said:

re. DIY adaptor - it looks like this company waveshare uses legit PL2303(xx) chips and keeps up with new revisions (latest is PL2303GS). I have ordered one of these https://www.waveshare.com/pl2303-usb-uart-board-type-c.htm from Amazon and will solder ethernet to the 4 pins (+100 ohm resistors on TX/RX).

If you are looking for a cable to upgrade DAC firmware, I made one a few years ago and was able to successfully do upgrade. PM me if you want to borrow my cable.

[OE333]

12 hours ago, ericuco said:

If you are looking for a cable to upgrade DAC firmware, I made one a few years ago and was able to successfully do upgrade. PM me if you want to borrow my cable.

 

I guess your cable was made for a DAC8DSD ?

Please note that the DAC8DSD cable will not fit the DAC200.

The DAC8DSD had a RJ12 connector, the DAC200 programming input is RJ45.

[OE333]

14 hours ago, camott said:

 

Can't the pass-through mode effectively use the same path as when "line" is selected for pre output? which I assume bypasses the preamp stage entirely? or maybe "line" bypass is not available for RCA/analog input?

 

 

To bypass the pre amp for analog input signals is not possible. We need the pre-amo to generate a balanced signal for the XLR output from the unbalanced RCA input. This is why the pre-amp stage is always in the signal path for the RCA input.

 

 

15 hours ago, camott said:

I think it should be fixed at 0 gain, ideally passing preamp altogether as per above. All AV receivers have per channel balance/volume offset control. Adding that ability to the DAC200 will just complicate things imo.

 

Yes, I also think to make it as simple as possible with a fixed 0dB gain for HTPT mode.

 

 

[ericuco]

7 hours ago, OE333 said:

 

I guess your cable was made for a DAC8DSD ?

Please note that the DAC8DSD cable will not fit the DAC200.

The DAC8DSD had a RJ12 connector, the DAC200 programming input is RJ45.

Yes, you are correct, mine was a DAC8DSD. My apologies.