Article: Apple Music Lossless Mess Part 2: AirPlay

[Mc-ornell]

Thanks for your exhaustive work on this. I don’t know if the Bluesound people have any insight on this but hopefully Apple is working on some kind of Apple ‘Connect’ feature so as to better integrate Apple Music with Bluesound and other HiFi devices. At least Spotify mentioned they were working with many hi-fi companies when they announced their hi-fi service. 
And while IOS can handle the varying sample rates present now in Apple Music due to automatic sample rate switching,  MacOS is still a mess because of the fixed rate forced upon us by the Audio MIDI setup. As John Darko says in his latest video, the only reliable way to get Apple Music lossless/hi-res lossless into your hi-fi at the moment is with an iOS device (iPad or iPhone), the CCK and a DAC. Everything else is a compromise of some sort. 

[wklie]

1 hour ago, Mc-ornell said:

Apple ‘Connect’

 

I believe it is present in the form of Audio Handoff for HomePod.

[actuel audio]

I wonder two things: 
- What about third party Airplay 1 capabilities? I have a receiver with Airplay 1. It is not updatable (apparently). Same for some powered speakers. All stuck in Airplay 1 world. Are they ALAC exclusively? If so, maybe preferable going strait to the Airplay 1 devices versus playing to my Airport Express 2 via its update to Airplay 2 and then to better DAC? I rarely do multi-room via Airplay and, when I do, AAC is fine.

- The old AE2 has a very good AKM 4430 DAC in it (for the time and can handle AM Lossless fully). I wonder if that stays ALAC versus Toslink to an external DAC? To my ear, as usual, it depends on the music and system. My crap system shines strait from the 4430 in it. Incredible, really. (The speakers cost me $10 and the amp was free!) But my better system seems to prefer Toslink to newer AKM 4493 DAC. Note: the DAC in the AE1 is not a good DAC so, Toslink from that makes sense.

 

I think Apple just needs to clarify what can do what. If Airplay 2 is limited too AAC all around, that would kind of suck but for me, not at all. But if it works ALAC point to point, that would be fine and enjoyable. Also, if they mess with the data, they need to say where and why. 

However, hovering over all of this is the provenance of the recording. Really only newer post 1996 recordings should be in this discussion. Even then, only recordings that are known to be least messed with in editing, including after hand off to the streaming service. Most pop music for the past 20 years is so heavily edited and altered from the mic, you are lucky to hear 5 bit sections of any recording through a wall of noise. Louder sells more music, is the mantra.

[Geoffrey Armstrong]

This may seem like a dumb question concerning the AppleTV; but Apple’s advice to get lossless from it, is that it must be connected via HDMI to a receiver.

 

My AppleTV 4k is only going to my TV via HDMI. The TV goes to my DAC via Toslink.

 

It must be because I’m not connected to a receiver that the Options for Audio quality do not show up in Settings -> Music App. So I can’t select lossless there.

 

I guess that means that whatever we manage to stream to an ATV 4k via Airplay, it won’t be lossless from the ATV, unless the ATV 4K is connected to a receiver via HDMI, right?

[stefano_mbp]

1 hour ago, Geoffrey Armstrong said:

AppleTV

There is another problem with AppleTV: it resample everything to 24/48 by default …

[Geoffrey Armstrong]

That’s true. I also have the older generation AppleTV with Optical out; but with this I also can”t see the audio quality settings.

 

At the moment, I’m assuming the only way to get lossless (at 24/48) is out of an ATV 4k, that’s connected to an appropraite receiver via HDMI.

 

I don’t know how it determines if it’s connected to a receiver. I’ll try later with my Oppo disk player, to check if the ATV believes that’s a receiver.

 

This is no problem with the Tidal app on AppleTV, which I do believe is lossless and doesn’t need to see an HDMI receiver to output lossless.

[new_media]

7 hours ago, Geoffrey Armstrong said:

That’s true. I also have the older generation AppleTV with Optical out; but with this I also can”t see the audio quality settings.

 

At the moment, I’m assuming the only way to get lossless (at 24/48) is out of an ATV 4k, that’s connected to an appropraite receiver via HDMI.

 

I don’t know how it determines if it’s connected to a receiver. I’ll try later with my Oppo disk player, to check if the ATV believes that’s a receiver.

 

This is no problem with the Tidal app on AppleTV, which I do believe is lossless and doesn’t need to see an HDMI receiver to output lossless.

 

I am running an ATV 4K into an HDMI splitter and getting 24/48 PCM, FWIW.

[Geoffrey Armstrong]

22 minutes ago, new_media said:

 

I am running an ATV 4K into an HDMI splitter and getting 24/48 PCM, FWIW.

Thanks. Seems like some kind of handshake is performed with HDMI and if ATV doesn’t like what it sees on the other end of the connection, you don’t see the lossless options.

[actuel audio]

There is one more way to play Apple Music from Apple TV 4 and 4K to a system.
I have my ATV4 connected wirelessly (probably Airplay) to an Airport Express 2 which in turn, feeds directly to an amp via 3.5 to RCA. The AKM DAC in the AE2 is pretty good!
This was Apples solution to the missing 3.5/Toslink from ATV 4 onward. Presumably, this can also work with any Airplay receiver but, I've only used it in this instance.
I do not know if it is sending it ALAC or AAC. My guess is AAC as, it lists all the Airplay devices I own. However, some are not playable with others. IOW: Airplay 1.0 devices are listed. I wonder if those 1.0 receivers are ALAC since it is point to point and to v. 1.0? If so, this is an interesting option from ATV4 and 4K for those wondering how to do it with no Toslink or Aux. The AE2 DAC is an AK4430 192kHz 24-Bit. Should match up with Apple Music Lossless nice.

[jjdnyc]

On 6/28/2021 at 11:47 PM, Mc-ornell said:

As John Darko says in his latest video, the only reliable way to get Apple Music lossless/hi-res lossless into your hi-fi at the moment is with an iOS device (iPad or iPhone), the CCK and a DAC. Everything else is a compromise of some sort. 

Yeah. But, as Chris has figured out, even iOS to the CCK doesn’t deliver bit perfect.  So much for the Dragonly DAC that I just picked up…

[James lee]

On 6/25/2021 at 4:22 AM, The Computer Audiophile said:

There is no common way to alter a file and still leave the 16th bit untouched. Sure, if someone wanted to hack a file to make it pass this test, but be lossy, it could be done. However, in the real world, all common ways of modifying data destroy the 16th or 24th bit with the HDCD information (Conversion to AAC or MP3, Convolution, Volume control, etc…).

I've done a lossless truncation of the unwanted bits from a polluted AM 16bit stream.

 

And it nulls properly so a true fix to retain lossless. You need a vst host.

[The Computer Audiophile]

9 minutes ago, James lee said:

I've done a lossless truncation of the unwanted bits from a polluted AM 16bit stream.

 

And it nulls properly so a true fix to retain lossless. You need a vst host.

Can you capture a partial track from Pearl Jam’s Live on Two Legs album and send it to me for testing?

[Jud]

1 hour ago, James lee said:

I've done a lossless truncation of the unwanted bits from a polluted AM 16bit stream.

 

And it nulls properly so a true fix to retain lossless. You need a vst host.

 

Are you able to see what the values of bits 17-24 are?  Wondering if this is zero padding (doesn't seem like it if there's a sonic effect), dither...?

[James lee]

 

I'm supposing they (17 to 23) are clear judging by the pre fixes null being one bit and also the shape of the original 16bit Christmas's tree look which never happens when you gain alter a 16bit stream in a higher bit environment.

[James lee]

2 hours ago, Jud said:

 

Are you able to see what the values of bits 17-24 are?  Wondering if this is zero padding (doesn't seem like it if there's a sonic effect), dither...?

Ser above comment of mine

[lucretius]

Wow! There's a part 2?  Thanks, Chris!

[actuel audio]

17 hours ago, jjdnyc said:

Yeah. But, as Chris has figured out, even iOS to the CCK doesn’t deliver bit perfect.  So much for the Dragonly DAC that I just picked up…

Give it a try anyway. I think you will like the Lossless.

So, you can't get a whole wheat bun and Kobe beef on the incredible burger from your favorite burger place. It is still a damn good burger. :-)

[The Computer Audiophile]

I just tested @James lee's partial file capture and can verify it's bit perfect and illuminated the HDCD indicator on my DAC. 

 

Crazy that the file streaming from Apple Music isn't but perfect, but applying the right special sauce to it afterward makes it perfect. 

[new_media]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I just tested @James lee's partial file capture and can verify it's bit perfect and illuminated the HDCD indicator on my DAC. 

 

Crazy that the file streaming from Apple Music isn't but perfect, but applying the right special sauce to it afterward makes it perfect. 

 

Very cool. I'm interested to see what he discovers about the LSB in a 24-bit stream.

[James lee]

Hold my beer.

It may be a lost cause.

[Jud]

10 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I just tested @James lee's partial file capture and can verify it's bit perfect and illuminated the HDCD indicator on my DAC. 

 

Crazy that the file streaming from Apple Music isn't but perfect, but applying the right special sauce to it afterward makes it perfect. 

 

If I'm understanding @James leecorrectly (please tell me if I'm not), Apple is just "zero padding"? So being able to get bit-perfection by eliminating the zeros in registers 17-24 of each "word" doesn't seem remarkable to me. What does seem remarkable is a sonic impact that essentially results from writing 1 as 1.00000000.

[The Computer Audiophile]

40 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

If I'm understanding @James leecorrectly (please tell me if I'm not), Apple is just "zero padding"? So being able to get bit-perfection by eliminating the zeros in registers 17-24 of each "word" doesn't seem remarkable to me. What does seem remarkable is a sonic impact that essentially results from writing 1 as 1.00000000.

I can set my DAC to look at either the 16th or 24th bit for the HDCD flag. I don’t see it on either, unless the files are run through the plugin. 

[Bevok]

Just for my understanding, does @James lee s work mean although the digital USB output isn’t bit perfect the audio content is untainted/valid?

[James lee]

49 minutes ago, Jud said:

Apple is just "zero padding"?

It's not zero. I cant tell you exactly what is in bit 24 but it is something. Waves IDR can choose 22bit, 18bit as well as 16bit/24bit. All except 24bit fixes the stream.

I've done blind test as randomised 5 round test. So far only two rounds. I picked Qobuz 60percent of the time each bunch.

[The Computer Audiophile]

51 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

If I'm understanding @James leecorrectly (please tell me if I'm not), Apple is just "zero padding"? So being able to get bit-perfection by eliminating the zeros in registers 17-24 of each "word" doesn't seem remarkable to me. What does seem remarkable is a sonic impact that essentially results from writing 1 as 1.00000000.

 

In addition, I see the HDCD flag on the 16th when the track starts, but after less than one second, it's destroyed. 

 

If all that's happening is padding, it's really strange to start after the track starts. Plus, the HDCD flag should still be intact on the 16th bit with padding. Nonetheless, I change my DAC to look at both 16 and 24th bits, and neither has the HDCD flag.