Article: Apple Music Lossless Mess Part 2: AirPlay

[actuel audio]

1 hour ago, tgp-2 said:

 

yes, it seems adding an AirPlay 1 receiver to a multi-room group is supported when streaming from Apple Music on a Mac (it's not an option when streaming from iOS), and this forces the use of real-time (AirPlay 1) streams to all receivers in the group

 

but it looks like the Mac's Apple Music app isn't receiving lossless in this case ... the lossless indicator disappears, and a rough check of the network traffic also suggests a smaller/lossy file downloaded to the Mac ... so it's a real-time / ALAC stream, but from a lossy source (and in this case it's not clear why the lossy source would be necessary) 🤔 

 

compare this to selecting only AirPlay 2 receivers ... the lossless indicator returns, and there's more data downloaded to the Mac ... but the buffered AirPlay 2 streams are lower bitrate / lossy

I’m getting a headache…

[tgp-2]

16 minutes ago, MgP2804 said:

alac 44.1/16 to multicast by adding a single airplay 1 device. how did you measure this?

 

i'm looking at network traffic using the terminal app 'bmon' (in this case, it's installed on the Mac, and I'm looking at RX received data from Apple Music / cloud to the Mac, and also TX transmit data from the Mac to the remote AirPlay receivers)

 

have also used Wireshark (I/O Graph)

 

there are some example graphs and description in the write-up I linked to earlier

[MgP2804]

great and this is super interesting. whireshark  i have myself. many thanks for providing this info!

[actuel audio]

I play Music to a system via the Finder Sound menu on latest macOS on a Mac Mini. I had been playing to an Airport Express 2 (flat, like a white Apple TV 2) with it set to fully updated firmware to Airplay 2 since playing Music from the Mac via the finder Sound menu, results in the best outcome. But I recently hooked up a Belkin Soundform Connect (which I think had a stumble out of the gate but, other than the NFC tag not working, requiring me entering the code, boo hoo, went on to my network as well as Home app east peasy). 

The Belkin Soundform Connect is fine. It is Airplay 2 but, when playing via the Mac Mini, it is identical to the Airport Express. Which makes sense. So, I can play 16/44 Apple Music from Mac to the Soundform Connect. It is most likely not bit perfect but it is lossless if the volume on all but the amp is set to max. When I switch over to latest iOS, I can sense a slight decline. Probably now, it is, AAC 256. But, you know, I am OK with that! It gives my ears a break.
When I open the iTunes Remote app  on iOS and play my ALAC files from my Mac, it is back to superb CD quality again. Well, because, I control it from iOS but the data is coming from the Mac. 

Note that the Soundform app is helpful to link to the Connect. It does not do much but it seems to have a somewhat separate volume control (what is that, number 3?!) Even though I had all volumes, except my amp, up all the way, upon adding it to the app, the volume was about 30%. Maybe Belkin does this to not blast the inexperienced. But, when I turned it to full, it did seem to bring it all back to a really good amount of gusto (sorry, whatever the term is for that).

I also suspect that since the Soundform Connect is simply a newer device, it seems more robust with audio. 
I buried the lead until the end: On that ancient iTunes Remote app on iOS, when you bring up the Airplay menu, it shows the Connect and my other airplay devices. Since I am just playing in one room, it is single check mark to that device. But in the upper left, is an option for Multiple. When you choose that, the app becomes like an Airplay 2 only app. Allowing you to play to multiple devices. With a check mark in a circle! Hmm, so the second I choose Multiple and other Airplay 2 devices, does the music change from ALAC to AAC? This is the question and would answer other questions here too.

 

 

 

One small mystery: all my HomePods are missing from Remote. Will have to figure out why.

[actuel audio]

I decided to set up all my Apple Expresses V2 as Airplay 1 receivers via ethernet. This forces 16/44 lossless from iOS, my main player of Apple Music streams. I also turned off wi-fi and; made it static IP and ipv6 as link local only in the hopes that I could voice control it via Siri.

But I think the last firmware Airplay 2 update seems to be the only option to use voice. The Expresses do show up on the Home app in iOS and iPad OS with volume and other controls but show the no response message. Which I think is the problem with Siri voice control on them. 

Since I prefer to just know they will always be 16/44, and I have no need for Airplay 2 in various rooms at once in a small home, I'm just leaving them set as Airplay 1 and, as for Siri, oh well… will just have to use my fingers on a screen. No biggie.

One thing, and I knew this but forgot, is that when you do a bunch of changes like this you must do a hard restart and reload in your settings. Hard restart is the middle option where it stays plugged in but you press the small button in for 5-6 seconds. Soft and Factory are not what you need to do. So if you are messing around, after each firmware update or changes where the Express is amber light as it loads them in, once you get the green light, do a hard restart. More amber, some green, then amber and finally solid green. This means it is most stable and set up to work right.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201945

And finally, again, the macOS Airfoil app overcomes most of this since it is an exclusive mode app. So, I can play to Airplay 1 and Airplay 2 speakers at the same time from a mac. The developer wrote this to me: “Airfoil transmits audio using the standards of each protocol: AirPlay specifies a 16-bit stereo Apple Lossless stream, at a 44.1 kHz sample rate, and Chromecast devices need us to send it 48 kHz PCM audio so it's properly received and played back there. So Airfoil will use as lossless an audio format as you could hope for while remaining compatible with any device you're connecting to.”

Why Apple cannot do this is a mystery.
I returned the Soundform Connect. I just did not need it.

 

[actuel audio]

Just another side note trick on this.
I was wondering, how can I get 24 bit recordings from Apple Music to my Yamaha MusicCast speakers. Sometimes I just want them and not the whole blasted system. I don’t have a server, other than iTunes Remote app from Mac which is 16/44. From iOS to MusicCast speakers it is the same problem as written about here.

The solution is to send it from another device. But not Apple iOS as that will likely be AAC 256…. Instead, I play Apple Music on my Apple TV 4K to my Yamaha via HDMI and then link my MusicCast speakers. I can silence the main AVR speakers. Presto, 24/48 recordings playing from Apple Music via MusicCast to the 20s as stereo pair.
Most importantly, I can control the Apple TV with my phone, just like Spotify Connect, using Apple Music Control Other Speakers option.
I bet this method could be used on other systems that allow above 16/44 like Denon, et all.

I could also just plug an iOS device strait into a DAC and then RCA into the AVR and then out via MusicCast but, then, no remote control. But I would get 24/96 or 24/192 to the MusicCast speakers. If the recording is at those.

[Bevok]

2 hours ago, actuel audio said:

Just another side note trick on this.
I was wondering, how can I get 24 bit recordings from Apple Music to my Yamaha MusicCast speakers. Sometimes I just want them and not the whole blasted system. I don’t have a server, other than iTunes Remote app from Mac which is 16/44. From iOS to MusicCast speakers it is the same problem as written about here.

The solution is to send it from another device. But not Apple iOS as that will likely be AAC 256…. Instead, I play Apple Music on my Apple TV 4K to my Yamaha via HDMI and then link my MusicCast speakers. I can silence the main AVR speakers. Presto, 24/48 recordings playing from Apple Music via MusicCast to the 20s as stereo pair.
Most importantly, I can control the Apple TV with my phone, just like Spotify Connect, using Apple Music Control Other Speakers option.
I bet this method could be used on other systems that allow above 16/44 like Denon, et all.

I could also just plug an iOS device strait into a DAC and then RCA into the AVR and then out via MusicCast but, then, no remote control. But I would get 24/96 or 24/192 to the MusicCast speakers. If the recording is at those.

The Apple TV is a great streaming experience and for me the best part is the Atmos content. Just be aware that it resamples everything to 24/48, no issue for me but it bit perfect is important to you might be a factor, and you won’t deliver the higher sample rates (need to use usb from iOS etc).

[actuel audio]

9 minutes ago, Bevok said:

The Apple TV is a great streaming experience and for me the best part is the Atmos content. Just be aware that it resamples everything to 24/48, no issue for me but it bit perfect is important to you might be a factor, and you won’t deliver the higher sample rates (need to use usb from iOS etc).

Did you not read what I wrote? Not about Atmos. 24 bit is not a resample if the source was that. Since it does not upsample, no problem for 14. The advantage is convenience at 24 bit wireless via MusicCast from Apple Music. I am not a pedantic martinet audiophile.

[Jud]

8 minutes ago, actuel audio said:

Did you not read what I wrote? Not about Atmos…. I am not a pedantic martinet audiophile.

Well, not a martinet audiophile, I guess. 😉

[Bevok]

2 hours ago, Bevok said:

The Apple TV is a great streaming experience and for me the best part is the Atmos content. Just be aware that it resamples everything to 24/48, no issue for me but it bit perfect is important to you might be a factor, and you won’t deliver the higher sample rates (need to use usb from iOS etc).

 

2 hours ago, actuel audio said:

Did you not read what I wrote? Not about Atmos. 24 bit is not a resample if the source was that. Since it does not upsample, no problem for 14. The advantage is convenience at 24 bit wireless via MusicCast from Apple Music. I am not a pedantic martinet audiophile.

I did read what you wrote. You are incorrect in that it does upsample to 24 bit. Not sure what you mean by 14? I agree on convenience - as I said resampling is not an issue for me. I'm not a pedantic martinet audiophile either, as you'd have noted if you had read what I wrote :-)

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

4 hours ago, Jud said:

4 hours ago, actuel audio said:

…. I am not a pedantic martinet audiophile.

Well, not a martinet audiophile, I guess. 😉

 

Lets not be nit-picky 🤣

[actuel audio]

19 hours ago, Bevok said:

 

I did read what you wrote. You are incorrect in that it does upsample to 24 bit. Not sure what you mean by 14? I agree on convenience - as I said resampling is not an issue for me. I'm not a pedantic martinet audiophile either, as you'd have noted if you had read what I wrote :-)

As usual, forums mess up intended textual communication. Was not directed at you. Just a general PMA comment. I got you are not a PMA…
BTW: Where is a good chart or source for seeing how up or down sampling impacts audio for troglodytes? I may have transposed them. But my understanding is that (PMA trigger warning!), it really does not matter for non PMAs, especially in the case of the Apple audio chip set that handles it. Superbly, apparently.

[Jud]

3 hours ago, actuel audio said:

As usual, forums mess up intended textual communication. Was not directed at you. Just a general PMA comment. I got you are not a PMA…
BTW: Where is a good chart or source for seeing how up or down sampling impacts audio for troglodytes? I may have transposed them. But my understanding is that (PMA trigger warning!), it really does not matter for non PMAs, especially in the case of the Apple audio chip set that handles it. Superbly, apparently.

If you can work out a way to listen to both Apple and something bit perfect, and you hear no difference, wonderful. It doesn’t really matter what anyone else thinks.

 

By the way, changing 16 to 24 bit isn’t what is usually thought of as up- or downsampling. I won’t bother to get into the technical aspects unless you would like.

 

It’s changing 44.1 or whatever else to 48 that is sample rate conversion. Some folks like to do conversion by particular methods that they believe give better sound, or not convert sample rates. But as I mentioned, if you don’t hear a difference with the conversion to 48kbps that Apple does, that’s just fine. You’re the one who has to be satisfied.

 

Edit: Oh by the way, no chart necessary. Digital audio requires the use of filters, and upsampling makes it easier to use good filters. That’s it.

[actuel audio]

Interesting article from Darko that relates.

“We should remain cognizant that the Apple TV resamples all audio to 48kHz before it exits the HDMI port on the back. And if it didn’t, most TV operating systems would. That strikes hi-res streams from the menu. However, we should not let bit-perfect idealism cloud our judgement: any hit to sound quality wrought by the resampling of 44.1kHz CD-quality audio to 48kHz will be dwarfed by changes to room acoustics, loudspeakers, loudspeaker position and amplifier.”

I agree.

https://darko.audio/2023/12/why-bother-with-apple-music-when-we-have-tidal-qobuz/

[actuel audio]

I'm still messing around with my 2022 Apple TV 4K with maximizing audio out of it (other than Atmos). I think Apple might have made Apple TVs a bit smarter with audio. Maybe in a recent update? It has been gospel that ATVs set all audio up or down to 48 kHz. As Mr. D said. But (and maybe this was always the case or with an update) if I play Apple Music ATV app on my ATV 4K, it seems to send the PCM as it is. So if it is 16/44, that is what you get. If it is 24/48, you get that. 
As long as it is strait HDMI to an AVR which in turn plays it out.
I bet if it detects a TV, it does a resample to match TV land.
Of course, if it is a 24/96, then it will play as a 24/48. Since most Apple songs are 16/44 or 24/48, this kind of makes sense and was easy enough for the Apple Music on ATV OS developer to implement.
I also recently played a rare AAC version of an album on ATV Apple Music too. I guess they never got a lossless version… 
But I do not have the right equipment to unequivocally confirm this. I am going by what my various systems are saying and what Apple Music is reporting via Control Other Speaker option on iOS and via Apple Music on ATV OS.

[actuel audio]

Did Apple just remove the ability to downgrade Airport Express v2 firmware from macOS on Airport Utility? I went to show someone how to downgrade to Airplay 1 and, it was missing this option. It just updated it to latest. When you click on Version number, no menu to downgrade to older version appears. Just more current version digits.

So I went to iOS and it still had that option (a menu of all the previous firmwares) and I downgraded to 7.6.9 for Airplay 1.

It was weird. Well, whatever you do, don't assume clicking on update firmware option on the Mac version will give you options. It won't. Stick with iOS Airport Utility for now.

[actuel audio]

Well, Rob_F1 ran a test in December and, it indicates, Apple has fixed the AAC 256 Airplay 2 issue. He posts it here on the Apple Forum:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254803259?answerId=259971881022&sortBy=best#259971881022

[tgp-2]

summary in above linked Apple forum post is based on output from third party app using BluOS API, not direct observation of network traffic etc.

 

i checked again ... as far as i can tell, there's been no change ... Airplay 2 buffered streams are still lossy AAC 256kbps

 

for reference, my latest summary linked below ...

 

tgp-2 Airplay summary

[actuel audio]

16 hours ago, tgp-2 said:

summary in above linked Apple forum post is based on output from third party app using BluOS API, not direct observation of network traffic etc.

 

i checked again ... as far as i can tell, there's been no change ... Airplay 2 buffered streams are still lossy AAC 256kbps

 

for reference, my latest summary linked below ...

 

tgp-2 Airplay summary

Well, this is what I thought! Thanks for checking. I think Apple will not fix this and, if they do, it will be Airport 3.