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A toast to PGGB, a heady brew of math and magic


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13 hours ago, austinpop said:

If my early impressions are any indication, this will be worth the wait! 

 

That's exactly how I'm feeling, too. I've had some very limited exposure to the pre-release version of the product and whilst I'll hold off with "tangibles" (direct comparisons of different aspects of sound) until I can do some more listening, the "intangibles" are that I'm hearing a new level of audio quality where it's really difficult to go back to how I listened to music before.

 

In my previous posts, I often wrote about trade-offs, which referred to not only using different filters, but also strongly preferring DSD on my DAC and at the time suspecting that this might be the reason why I would not consider (as in - I would simply not enjoy it) PGGB in its PCM form as my default way of listening to music. Well, it seems to me that I might now be able to close the "Which trade-offs can I live with in the long term?" chapter as PGGB DSD seems to take the best out of everything and then cranks it up to eleven. So far, the only reason (from an audio point of view, so excluding the hassle of doing long and resource-heavy processing) why someone might prefer a different upsampling method that I can think of, is being overwhelmed by how much information (spatial cues, holography etc.) is extracted from music - but that's not a knock against PGGB,; on the contrary, it just shows how good it is at reconstructing the smallest details.

 

Re @kennyb123's impressions of PCM vs DSD - I can agree that in some cases the "tangibles" are seemingly small (in others, very obvious), but, as I've been saying for a long time, in my case there is something about PCM on my DAC (as in - the DAC's internal processing of it) that simply prevents me from full immersion and even PGGB's level of reconstruction was not able to compensate for that, i.e. I felt like the "glass ceiling" was still there (this probably sounds like a seemingly contradictory statement, but using a video analogy - I knew that the resolution of each object was higher, but the grid that they were eventually placed on remained the same, hampering the final result). It's wonderful to be able to experience said level of reconstruction in DSD as I can now fully appreciate what PGGB is doing. And, in hindsight, it also helps me understand my previous experiences - e.g. the gap between PGGB and other filters which I have used, especially in terms of spatial presentation - I would have heard this on PCM too, however I would have been constantly triggered by the "PCM presentation" which I seem to be allergic to and which would have made it difficult for me to focus on all the good things which were happening. Now with this obstacle out of the way, the results are nothing short of spectacular so far.

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34 minutes ago, Mista Lova Lova said:

Re @kennyb123's impressions of PCM vs DSD - I can agree that in some cases the "tangibles" are seemingly small (in others, very obvious), but, as I've been saying for a long time, in my case there is something about PCM on my DAC (as in - the DAC's internal processing of it) that simply prevents me from full immersion and even PGGB's level of reconstruction was not able to compensate for that, i.e. I felt like the "glass ceiling" was still there (this probably sounds like a seemingly contradictory statement, but using a video analogy - I knew that the resolution of each object was higher, but the grid that they were eventually placed on remained the same, hampering the final result).

Don’t you also have the Gustard x26pro?  To my ears, it’s been an excellent tool to assess PGGB PCM as my participation in the beta testing had me hearing the same benefits as other testers without me ever feeling that I might be missing out.  When other listeners said they felt a particular PGGB enhancement justified reprocessing, I always felt the same.  I’ve only diverged now with PGGB DSD as with the x26pro it hasn’t seemed as it’s moved the needle as much as it has for the others.  My endgame though is the T+A DAC200, and I am

sure that will force me to want to reprocess my entire library.  I will point out again though that my listening to PGGB DSD512x1 has been limited so with more listening my impressions might evolve.

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

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6 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

Don’t you also have the Gustard x26pro?  To my ears, it’s been an excellent tool to assess PGGB PCM as my participation in the beta testing had me hearing the same benefits as other testers without me ever feeling that I might be missing out.  When other listeners said they felt a particular PGGB enhancement justified reprocessing, I always felt the same.  I’ve only diverged now with PGGB DSD as with the x26pro it hasn’t seemed as it’s moved the needle as much as it has for the others.  My endgame though is the T+A DAC200, and I am

sure that will force me to want to reprocess my entire library.  I will point out again though that my listening to PGGB DSD512x1 has been limited so with more listening my impressions might evolve.

Yes, I do. That's the DAC that I've been doing all my PGGB and HQP testing on.

 

I don't really want to try to convince you that I'm right and you're wrong because I can also imagine why someone might possibly perceive PCM on this DAC as superior (for instance, it comes across as more "in-your-face" which might be interpreted as more punchy, which some people might like; to my ears, it lacks the sophistication of DSD but it's only my perception of it). I would only suggest the following to you - unless there are issues with how the DAC receives the DSD signal as opposed to PCM (in terms of jitter, timing etc. - I don't have the knowledge/expertise to even try to ascertain if there are indeed significant differences here), PGGB in DSD should be at least as good as the DAC's internal modulation, so at the very least there shouldn't be any harm in feeding the DAC DSD. Given PGGB's level of sophistication and complexity, though, I'd say that it's a reasonable inference that, at least on paper, PGGB will do a much better modulation than the DAC's own chip. Question is - is it audible?

 

And that's where each of us might have our own answer. We all hear differently and are sensitive to different things. I have tried many, many times to stick to PCM as this would make my life easier. I always like the first few moments ("punch"), and then quickly lose interest as there's just less depth and holography around each sound. Hence I used to prefer other solutions - they might give me "less" in absolute terms, but they had that naturalness that I craved. And in this sense, less really was more for me.

 

But if I can have both, which seems to be the case, then I couldn't be happier 😀

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39 minutes ago, Mista Lova Lova said:

And that's where each of us might have our own answer. We all hear differently and are sensitive to different things.

Exactly.  I think also you and I are almost exact opposites when it comes to determining what’s right.  I try to check my brain at the door so I can rely entirely on my ears and emotions.  You have gone about it quite differently, as I would think you’d agree.  I couldn’t agree more though with your conclusion:

 

42 minutes ago, Mista Lova Lova said:

But if I can have both, which seems to be the case, then I couldn't be happier 😀

Amen to that!

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

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52 minutes ago, Mista Lova Lova said:

then quickly lose interest as there's just less depth and holography around each sound.

I think this contributes much to why we see things differently.  I could never lose interest over those things being in less abundance.  But if something were to screw with the sound of a drumstick contacting a cymbal, it would be over for me.

 

Another thing I should mention is that the server I’m using underwent an upgrade.  The K50 received the G4 upgrade, which brought a massive improvement.  Holography in particular improved substantially.  I do think PGGB-DSD betters PGGB-16FS in that area but not enough to reprocess all my albums for just that.  Given how important that quality is to you, I can most certainly understand why you would be delighted with the gains in that area.

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

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7 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

While DSD is the main focus of the next release, there are significant improvements coming to PCM processing (mainly memory with no change to accuracy).

 

PGGB DSD will support single stage upsampling, and two stage upsampling to the final DSD rate. Single stage (which I prefer) is quite memory intensive and forced me to do optimizations around memory and paging. As a byproduct of the optimizations, 256-bit PCM upsampling of long tracks will now be easier to do even on Macs and it significantly reduces memory requirements without much slow down.


Will these optimizations trickle down to pggb it? Or are they limited to the main pggb app?

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4 hours ago, taipan254 said:


Will these optimizations trickle down to pggb it? Or are they limited to the main pggb app?

PGGB-IT! and PGGB App share the same C++ based processing engine. So yes, the optimizations apply for both.

Author of PGGB & RASA, remastero

Update: PGGB Plus (PCM + DSD) Now supports both PCM and DSD, with much improved memory handling

Free: foo_pggb_rt is a free real-time upsampling plugin for foobar2000 64bit; RASA is a free tool to do FFT analysis of audio tracks

SystemTT7 PGI 240v + Power Base > Paretoaudio Server [SR7T] > Adnaco Fiber [SR5T] >VR L2iSE [QSA Silver fuse, QSA Lanedri Gamma Infinity PC]> QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation RCA> Omega CAMs, JL Sub, Vox Z-Bass/ /LCD-5/[QSA Silver fuse, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation PC] KGSSHV Carbon CC, Audeze CRBN

 

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The upcoming PGGB DSD release is exciting! Unfortunately my main DAC (Weiss) doesn't do DSD natively, and neither does my Chord Mojo 2.

 

I wonder what a "cheap" NOS DAC to experiment with upsampled DSD1024 might be. The Holo Cyan 2 was recently released at $1200. Apparently Topping will release a 1-bit DAC in Q2 this year, called the D900.

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28 minutes ago, Atriya said:

The upcoming PGGB DSD release is exciting! Unfortunately my main DAC (Weiss) doesn't do DSD natively, and neither does my Chord Mojo 2.

 

I wonder what a "cheap" NOS DAC to experiment with upsampled DSD1024 might be. The Holo Cyan 2 was recently released at $1200. Apparently Topping will release a 1-bit DAC in Q2 this year, called the D900.


I intend to experiment with a Cayin RU7. But that maxes out at dsd256. 

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12 minutes ago, taipan254 said:


I intend to experiment with a Cayin RU7. But that maxes out at dsd256. 

 

Fair enough. I'm just looking for something that can do NOS DSD1024 and isn't a T+A (too expensive).

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My T+A Dac200 does DSD1024 without issue, but I don't hear significant benefit from stretching my computing resources that far.

 

It sounds great using HQPlayer and the highest quality DSD modulators at DSD128 or DSD256, so I would not hung up on the numbers.

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7 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

 

Quite a few firmware updates were released so far, just wondering if you're getting the latest one installed on yours by any chance?

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20231209060213id_/http://updates.ta-hifi.de/firmware/auto_download/DAC200/docs/versions_DAC200.txt

 

Though it shouldn't be done by any end users as shown below, especially when it's a loaner unit

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/63998-ta-dac-200/page/5/#comment-1223743

 

If the latest firmware were still no go for DSD1024, then it might have something to do with the ASIO driver.

 

Not sure if you're running Linux or Windows?

 


 

I have not updated the firmware on my (now eight month old) Dac200. Never felt the need.

 

I do run HQP on Windows and I use HQP often to convert my PGGB files (in various states of upsampling stored as 64bit doubles) to DSD at 512 or 1024. This is not optimal but sounds excellent. 

 

Now waiting eagerly to be able to take the processing offline and let my HQP computer relax a little.

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I was able to test upsampling and native DSD on both Linux (EuphonyOS) and Windows (Windows 11 Pro) with the T+A 200. Both fed native DSD files to the T+A without issue. However, HQPlayer upscaling performance was noticeably better on Linux. Both were able to upscale to DSD 1024, but Linux was able to do so using heavier filters and settings without skipping/bottlenecks.
 

This could be due to Euphony leveraging a real-time kernel, or because the ASLA drivers are just better - I'm not really sure. Regardless, the important thing to remember is that upscaling at this level typically requires a CPU with higher clocks, say 5.1 - 5.4GHz, to run optimally. I used an Intel 14900K, but higher-end Ryzen CPUs are likely to work as well. 

 

I discovered that DACs w/true native DSD are very few and far between. In addition to the other DACs mentioned, I believe the Wandala also has native DSD capability, but only up to DSD 256 IIRC. My personal recommendation would be the T+A 200 or the Holo May KTE. I've owned both and prefer the T+A for the extra utility and slightly more engaging sound, but I believe the May is a bit cheaper. YMMV. 

 

As for comparing DSD 64, 128, 256, 512 and 1024 with each other and PCM, that is a highly subjective and very personal choice. I would only caution against using HQPlayer upscaling to evaluate DSD and use native/converted files instead. The differences between in-line upscaled and native DSD can be significant. 
 

Lastly, @Zaphod Beeblebrox, what key features (if any) will PGGB-DSD provide that something like dBpoweramp doesn't (besides being limited to DSD 512)? I am very interested as your PCM version is/was outstanding. 

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