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T+A DAC 200


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On 10/30/2022 at 11:15 PM, Miska said:

 

Intona USB isolator is useful. But to begin with such thing as "USB reclocker" is useless, because USB clock is not related to audio clocks. And only place where audio clock should be is few mm away from the D/A conversion stage.

 

 

Agree.

 

Whatever actual measurements may be, whatever may or may not be audibly evident, I can say without a doubt the Intona Isolator is a great product and can be worth the money.  

 

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On 10/27/2022 at 10:12 AM, jrsub said:

I purchased the T+A DAC 200 and should get it in a few weeks.    Does anyone know if using a USB reclocker such as the Wyred 4 Sound Recovery makes any sense to use with the DAC 200?  I currently use one on my Wyred DAC ,but not sure it is needed with the DAC200.

 

exactly why I concur with Miska.  

I had a Wyred4Sound USB DAC that has the Amanero USB interface and its specified galvanic isolator pre I2S.  (This is internal hardware as not to confuse.  W4S says the USB interface it is made by Amanero but is a special version that makes it 'not an Amanero' lol)

Anyway,  I was getting very very poor SNR via USB.  At average to normal listening levels, no problem.  But the noise could be heard with the volume control above where you might typically wish to listen.  Also the midrange was to my ears hard and harsh.  (Headphones was the listening medium.)  

A test (dangerous so don't try at home yada yada) with the volume at 100 percent and no signal with USB, exposed the input produced a significant amount of noise.  Way Way more in my opinion than an ESS based DAC design should.  Also note this was NOT 60 HZ ground noise/ground loop.  It was more like a white noise.  

Insert the Intona USB Galvanic Isolator between my source and the Wyred4Sound, and voila!!  Even at FULL VOLUME, it was practically DEAD SILENT.  (The harshness I perceived also appeared to be gone)

No Audio Precision unit needed here to detect any resulting differences haha. 

It just worked.  Perhaps I could have spend more time fiddling with my source, cables, the DAC locations, power conditioning, etc etc.  

But the bottom line is there is no doubt that excess noise was coming into the DAC via the USB INPUT and passing through the analog audio output.   In spite of what ever kind of galvanic isolation was in the W4S DAC. 

 

The Intona when inserted just did the job as promised.  Never before and never since have I experienced such a dramatic difference from one single, simple change.  

So I will always keep an Intona USB Galvanic Isolator around lest I have need again .  I hope to never need again like that, because that was unacceptable performance for that class of DAC.  

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  • 4 weeks later...

I am having an issue with my T+A DAC 200 where intermittently the left channel volume is suddenly reduced resulting in the center image shifting to the right and staying there.  I use the DAC 200  with an Aurender N200 music server and run the DAC 200 in variable mode to my  Audio Reseach LS28SE preamp.  

 

I use variable mode at -22 on the DAC 200 otherwise the high gain on my preamp limits my volume range.  When the channel problem occurs  I can only resolve the issue by physically unplugging the DAC 200 unit,  or switching the DAC 200 from variable to fixed output mode.  Power cycling any of the other components or even the DAC200 using the front power button when the problem is happening does not resolve the issue.   I can run the system for a day or two without the issue and then all of a sudden the problem occurs.

 

I spoke with my dealer and they are thinking that the DAC 200 should only be used in fixed output mode when using an external  preamp.     I  find that strange as it seems like using variable volume control is a common DAC feature for the very reason I use it.    However,  maybe that is how the T+A unit is designed and I am in fact using it in a different way than intended. 

 

Is anybody else using the DAC 200 in variable output mode to an external preamp successfully?

 

Thoughts?

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5 minutes ago, jrsub said:

I am having an issue with my T+A DAC 200 where intermittently the left channel volume is suddenly reduced resulting in the center image shifting to the right and staying there.  I use the DAC 200  with an Aurender N200 music server and run the DAC 200 in variable mode to my  Audio Reseach LS28SE preamp.  

 

I use variable mode at -22 on the DAC 200 otherwise the high gain on my preamp limits my volume range.  When the channel problem occurs  I can only resolve the issue by physically unplugging the DAC 200 unit,  or switching the DAC 200 from variable to fixed output mode.  Power cycling any of the other components or even the DAC200 using the front power button when the problem is happening does not resolve the issue.   I can run the system for a day or two without the issue and then all of a sudden the problem occurs.

 

I spoke with my dealer and they are thinking that the DAC 200 should only be used in fixed output mode when using an external  preamp.     I  find that strange as it seems like using variable volume control is a common DAC feature for the very reason I use it.    However,  maybe that is how the T+A unit is designed and I am in fact using it in a different way than intended. 

 

Is anybody else using the DAC 200 in variable output mode to an external preamp successfully?

 

Thoughts?

That’s a good one. I can’t see why it would matter how you use the DAC 200, as long as it’s within what the manual says you can do. What ever is downstream of a variable output would have no clue the output was varied prior to the input. 
 

My guess is that T+A will have a good idea what’s going on. It’s a very solid engineering based company. 

Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems AudiophileStyleStickerWhite2.0.png AudiophileStyleStickerWhite7.1.4.png

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On 12/9/2022 at 6:51 PM, jrsub said:

I am having an issue with my T+A DAC 200 where intermittently the left channel volume is suddenly reduced resulting in the center image shifting to the right and staying there.  I use the DAC 200  with an Aurender N200 music server and run the DAC 200 in variable mode to my  Audio Reseach LS28SE preamp.  

 

I use variable mode at -22 on the DAC 200 otherwise the high gain on my preamp limits my volume range.  When the channel problem occurs  I can only resolve the issue by physically unplugging the DAC 200 unit,  or switching the DAC 200 from variable to fixed output mode.  Power cycling any of the other components or even the DAC200 using the front power button when the problem is happening does not resolve the issue.   I can run the system for a day or two without the issue and then all of a sudden the problem occurs.

 

I spoke with my dealer and they are thinking that the DAC 200 should only be used in fixed output mode when using an external  preamp.     I  find that strange as it seems like using variable volume control is a common DAC feature for the very reason I use it.    However,  maybe that is how the T+A unit is designed and I am in fact using it in a different way than intended. 

 

Is anybody else using the DAC 200 in variable output mode to an external preamp successfully?

 

Thoughts?

 

I personally would prefer the fixed output mode when using the DAC together with a pre-amp, because this avoids to have two volume control stages in series.

But if the high gain of your pre-amp does not allow this, then it is of course possible to use the DAC200 in variable output mode together with your pre-amp. This is absolutely a very normal use case.

 

The issue you describe could result from a faulty relay or resistor in the DACs volume control section.

Does the problem go away if you turn the volume down to minimum and then up again ?

If this is the case this would be a strong hint to a faulty relay...

 

 

T+A Fellow   (Head of R&D @ T+A 1989-2021)

(*) My postings represent my private and personal opinion and hopefully are helpful to the members of this forum

 

T+A MP200 | T+A DAC200 | T+A A200 | T+A Talis S300 | DAW: Core i7 8700K - Linux 5.4.0 - Roonserver + HQP | NAA on RockPiE (RK3328)

 

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On 12/7/2022 at 11:49 PM, jonniema said:

Quick question though and as this might be helpful for others too:

Has anyone been able to perform a firmware upgrade to the DAC? Hope it is not limited to be performed by t+a support like the HV seems to be…

 

 

The DAC200/HA200 firmware can be updated with the help of a T+A MP200 streamer. The MP200 will download the latest DAC200 firmware from the internet and then it will update the DAC200. This is the easiest, safest and recommended way to update the DAC's firmware.

 

If you don't have a MP200 at hand, maybe you could ask your T+A dealer to do the update for you.

 

There is also a way to do the update without MP200  from a Windows PC using a special T+A programming adaptor (USB -> T+A E2Link adaptor).

 

Theoretically such a USB->E2Link adaptor could be built as a DIY project, but any attempt of a DIY firmware update with some home-brew programming adaptor would mean a BIG risk of bricking the DAC.  For this reason I really strongly recommend to use a MP200 for the update - or to ask the T+A support or your T+A dealer/importer to perform the update.

 

T+A Fellow   (Head of R&D @ T+A 1989-2021)

(*) My postings represent my private and personal opinion and hopefully are helpful to the members of this forum

 

T+A MP200 | T+A DAC200 | T+A A200 | T+A Talis S300 | DAW: Core i7 8700K - Linux 5.4.0 - Roonserver + HQP | NAA on RockPiE (RK3328)

 

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14 minutes ago, OE333 said:

 

 

The DAC200/HA200 firmware can be updated with the help of a T+A MP200 streamer. The MP200 will download the latest DAC200 firmware from the internet and then it will update the DAC200. This is the easiest, safest and recommended way to update the DAC's firmware.

 

If you don't have a MP200 at hand, maybe you could ask your T+A dealer to do the update for you.

 

There is also a way to do the update without MP200  from a Windows PC using a special T+A programming adaptor (USB -> T+A E2Link adaptor).

 

Theoretically such a USB->E2Link adaptor could be built as a DIY project, but any attempt of a DIY firmware update with some home-brew programming adaptor would mean a BIG risk of bricking the DAC.  For this reason I really strongly recommend to use a MP200 for the update - or to ask the T+A support or your T+A dealer/importer to perform the update.

 

 

Hi!

 

Great! That seems like a relatively easy process. I surely don’t want a big silver paperweight…

My dealer has the M200 in stock and on display, so will ask them to help.

 

BTW. Would the same apply for the P3100HV and PS3000HV? I.e.: if i connect an MP3100HV it updates the others?

 

Wishful thinking to T+A… although i do acknowledge this process is super clean, it is somewhat limited to whoever owns an MP (or asking the dealer to help with a unused/in-stock unit). I do wish there was a simple pc executable to update the DAC200 via USB.

 

Tks!

 

 

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Thanks OE333 I will test changing the DAC 200 volume while in variable mode the next time the issue occurs. 

 

What is also of note is that the other day  I decided  to test if using a USB reclocker I had on hand would benefit the DAC 200 sound quality.   I turned the DAC 200 off on the front panel, pulled the USB cord from the DAC  and re-inserted the USB cable with the reclocker.  Interestingly, I  had now inadvertently created the  exact same problem with the left channel losing some volume shifting the soundstage to the right while in variable mode.   I put back in just the original USB cable without the reclocker and  the problem was still there.  The only way I could resolve the issue was to physically unplug the DAC 200 from the power source.    I could recreate the channel issue about 50% of the time by  pulling the USB cable while the unit was plugged into the power source, but turned off on the front panel.   

 

Now after reading your response, I wanted to force the issue to occur and try your volume change suggestion.  However,   today I couldn't recreate the problem after a couple of tries.    So I guess I'll have to wait for the problem to occur naturally.  The issue  has occurred in the past within 2.5 hours after powering the unit on, or  it could run for 2 days without the issue occurring.  So it may take some time to test your suggestion.

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2 minutes ago, jrsub said:

Thanks OE333 I will test changing the DAC 200 volume while in variable mode the next time the issue occurs. 

 

What is also of note is that the other day  I decided  to test if using a USB reclocker I had on hand would benefit the DAC 200 sound quality.   I turned the DAC 200 off on the front panel, pulled the USB cord from the DAC  and re-inserted the USB cable with the reclocker.  Interestingly, I  had now inadvertently created the  exact same problem with the left channel losing some volume shifting the soundstage to the right while in variable mode.   I put back in just the original USB cable without the reclocker and  the problem was still there.  The only way I could resolve the issue was to physically unplug the DAC 200 from the power source.    I could recreate the channel issue about 50% of the time by  pulling the USB cable while the unit was plugged into the power source, but turned off on the front panel.   

 

Now after reading your response, I wanted to force the issue to occur and try your volume change suggestion.  However,   today I couldn't recreate the problem after a couple of tries.    So I guess I'll have to wait for the problem to occur naturally.  The issue  has occurred in the past within 2.5 hours after powering the unit on, or  it could run for 2 days without the issue occurring.  So it may take some time to test your suggestion.

This reminds me of a strange issue I had with a DAC. Flipping a light switch caused an audio dropout, only when my house is really dry in the winter. 

Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems AudiophileStyleStickerWhite2.0.png AudiophileStyleStickerWhite7.1.4.png

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Just now, jrsub said:

That thought actually crossed my mind as I am also in Minnesota and it has been quite dry.  

 

Ah no way. 
 

I was measuring my room two weeks ago. I touched the microphone and got an electrostatic shock. My mic preamp rebooted. 
 

Who knew Minnesota was the electronics Winter proving ground 🙂

Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems AudiophileStyleStickerWhite2.0.png AudiophileStyleStickerWhite7.1.4.png

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I was able to test OE333's suggestion today to drop the volume as low as it will go on the DAC 200 while in variable when the channel imbalance issue is occurring.  I dropped the volume to the lowest level and ran it back up and the issue was still there.  I tried again and the issue was still there.  I switched to fixed mode and then back to variable the problem was still there. Now back in variable mode, I ran  the volume to lowest level and back up and the problem went away - weird.

 

What preceded the issue today was that I accidentally shut off the DAC 200  while music was still playing from my Aurender N200.    I mentioned previously that I could occasionally force the issue by unplugging the USB cable while the DAC 200 was off but plugged into power.  Today's issue and prior issues  makes me think the problem is some synch issue between the Aurender and the DAC 200 when the USB signal is disrupted.   I still can't explain why I could be listening to the system for hours and then have the problem suddenly occur.  Anyhow,  I powered down the DAC 200, unplugged it, powered it back up  and am going to just run it in variable without fiddling with anything for a few days and see if the problem occurs. 

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On 12/11/2022 at 4:19 PM, Miska said:

I would recommend to try Intona USB isolator...

I ordered the Intona Super Speed 3.0/2.0 version.    I will see if it benefits the DAC 200.  I tried the Wyred Recovery and didn't really care for how it changed the sound.  It made the DAC 200 sound fuller but not in a good way.  I seemed to lose some of the texture in stringed instruments.

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I don't know if I am imagining things or not. Has anyone else noticed a difference between the sound of the latest T+A Windows driver, ver. 2.24.0.0, and the earlier ver. 1.13.0.0? I don't know what changes have been made, or if those changes can affect the sound. Although both sound great, I think I may prefer the earlier version. I am running HQPlayer v.3 Desktop on a Windows 10 Pro PC, automatically upsampling to either DSD512 or PCM768.

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

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On 12/11/2022 at 8:44 PM, jonniema said:

 

BTW. Would the same apply for the P3100HV and PS3000HV? I.e.: if i connect an MP3100HV it updates the others?

 

Wishful thinking to T+A… although i do acknowledge this process is super clean, it is somewhat limited to whoever owns an MP (or asking the dealer to help with a unused/in-stock unit). I do wish there was a simple pc executable to update the DAC200 via USB.

 

 

 

 

Yes, the same is true for all T+A series including HV: the streamer can update all other T+A devices connected to it.

A FW update with this method is done in a couple of minutes and it is absolutely safe.

 

And as I mentioned in my post, there is a way to update the firmware from a (Windows) PC.

Currently this method is limited to T+A service workshops because if anything goes wrong, it could brick the device and make it necessary to send it to a T+A service point for recovery.

If there is a common interest in doing FW updates from a PC I could discuss this topic with T+A to see what is possible...

 

T+A Fellow   (Head of R&D @ T+A 1989-2021)

(*) My postings represent my private and personal opinion and hopefully are helpful to the members of this forum

 

T+A MP200 | T+A DAC200 | T+A A200 | T+A Talis S300 | DAW: Core i7 8700K - Linux 5.4.0 - Roonserver + HQP | NAA on RockPiE (RK3328)

 

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12 hours ago, jrsub said:

 Now back in variable mode, I ran  the volume to lowest level and back up and the problem went away.

 

This points to the volume control as cause for the problem.

 

Would it be possible to run the DAC in Fixed Mode for a couple of days to see if the problem also occurs in fixed mode ?

If the problem does NOT occur in fixed mode,  it would mean that we can be pretty sure that the cause of the issue is the volume control.

 

T+A Fellow   (Head of R&D @ T+A 1989-2021)

(*) My postings represent my private and personal opinion and hopefully are helpful to the members of this forum

 

T+A MP200 | T+A DAC200 | T+A A200 | T+A Talis S300 | DAW: Core i7 8700K - Linux 5.4.0 - Roonserver + HQP | NAA on RockPiE (RK3328)

 

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3 minutes ago, jonniema said:

 

I would certainly be very interested in such update method as i use a pc for upsampling and streaming.

 

 

I will see what I can do...

T+A Fellow   (Head of R&D @ T+A 1989-2021)

(*) My postings represent my private and personal opinion and hopefully are helpful to the members of this forum

 

T+A MP200 | T+A DAC200 | T+A A200 | T+A Talis S300 | DAW: Core i7 8700K - Linux 5.4.0 - Roonserver + HQP | NAA on RockPiE (RK3328)

 

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25 minutes ago, OE333 said:

 

This points to the volume control as cause for the problem.

 

Would it be possible to run the DAC in Fixed Mode for a couple of days to see if the problem also occurs in fixed mode ?

If the problem does NOT occur in fixed mode,  it would mean that we can be pretty sure that the cause of the issue is the volume control.

 

Yes, I will run it in fixed mode and see if the problem occurs.   When the issue occurred in the past, if I switch to fixed mode output while the issue was happening the problem would disappear until I switched back to variable mode.    

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