PCIe interface vs usb interface/converter vs network streamer vs network server

[beerandmusic]

6 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

 

Yes, I am always willing to try something that might further eliminate noise

 

 

Thunderbolt3 now on usb-c so use adapter to usb-A which I do now on laptop

 

It is an expensive Gryphon DAC, so yes one expects the engineering to be OTT.

 

oh, ok...i didnt see that thunderbolt had the usb connector option....if that works, that would be great for me too..i can afford that cable (smile)...i will keep my eyes on this thread...if those optical cables will work with usb dacs, then i think i may just have to be happy with a schiit multibit with unison usb and a optical cable...I can't afford a sonore optical solution....if i were you though, i may consider trying the sonore optical solution (your host, computer audiophile, also has one).

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

6 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

I just looked at your system...you clearly have the money...if i were you, i would get the sonore optical solution...that or even get the lumin x1 with fiber....wish i had your money!

 

Fiber over ethernet is the way to go if you can afford it...look no further.

 

It's the first time i have recommended sonore product, but right now there aren't any other fiber over ethernet options that i could find short of the lumin x1 at $13k...

 

 

Yeh I started looking at the optical Rendu and network bridges also. Thanks for the link

 

I am pretty attached to the Kalliope dac. The sound of the system is stunning. I think there is more to a DAC than its digital interface and also depending on how it implements the interface. The kalliope has room for an optical upgrade such as network renderer / digital module like AVB audio over Ethernet

[firedog]

8 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

One of his guys sent me links to optical USB cables that I’d long forgotten about. I may get a couple in to test. 

I'd like to hear about them if you try them. It sounds like a low cost experiment, as opposed to some of the others that can be at or above 4 figures.

[firedog]

4 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Have you guys seen these optical USB cables?

 

https://www.cosemi.com/product_category/usb-comm/

Those are also hybrid copper - optical, from the description. 

Interesting that they don't make a USB A to USB B cable, only A to Mini B. Almost all DACs have a B input socket, AFAIK.

[smodtactical]

What do you guys think of the philosophy that any path that has usb is automatically inferior? And that the best path is PCIE -> dac via spdif? This is an opinion held by many smart users I have encountered but I do wonder if this is a superior solution to a good ethernet solution or this optical pathway that Hans B is talking about.

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 hours ago, smodtactical said:

What do you guys think of the philosophy that any path that has usb is automatically inferior? And that the best path is PCIE -> dac via spdif? This is an opinion held by many smart users I have encountered but I do wonder if this is a superior solution to a good ethernet solution or this optical pathway that Hans B is talking about.

Laughable. 

[sb6]

4 hours ago, smodtactical said:

What do you guys think of the philosophy that any path that has usb is automatically inferior? And that the best path is PCIE -> dac via spdif? This is an opinion held by many smart users I have encountered but I do wonder if this is a superior solution to a good ethernet solution or this optical pathway that Hans B is talking about.

I think it's an oversimplification. There are many factors that go into each design that can affect sound quality. Also, it depends on your system components quality since SPDIF relies on the DAC to clock the signal while USB relies on the source. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

15 minutes ago, sb6 said:

I think it's an oversimplification. There are many factors that go into each design that can affect sound quality. Also, it depends on your system components quality since SPDIF relies on the DAC to clock the signal while USB relies on the source. 

Absolutely. I know a few very old school guys who say USB is always inferior. I just consider their background, understanding of technology, systems they are used to, etc... and take it for what it’s worth. 

[beerandmusic]

8 hours ago, smodtactical said:

What do you guys think of the philosophy that any path that has usb is automatically inferior? And that the best path is PCIE -> dac via spdif? This is an opinion held by many smart users I have encountered but I do wonder if this is a superior solution to a good ethernet solution or this optical pathway that Hans B is talking about.

I think ethernet over optical is best possible solution, and whether you take that optical out to usb>dac or optical out> streamer/dac just depends on design.   I think noise isolation from usb out a noisy pc has come a long ways over the last 5 or 6 years, but you aren't going to beat noise isolation using  one of the 2 fiber over ethernet solutions.

[jabbr]

I think this USB/thunderbolt is very confusing -- see: https://www.extremetech.com/computing/286861-thunderbolt-3-rebranded-as-usb4-coming-2021

 

The problem is that there are cable compatibility issues so I can't say that the Corning fiberoptic Thunderbolt 3/USB4 cable will work with a USB DAC input -- someone needs to try

[sb6]

1 hour ago, beerandmusic said:

I think ethernet over optical is best possible solution, and whether you take that optical out to usb>dac or optical out> streamer/dac just depends on design.   I think noise isolation from usb out a noisy pc has come a long ways over the last 5 or 6 years, but you aren't going to beat noise isolation using  one of the 2 fiber over ethernet solutions.

Curious if anyone considered any inherent noise/jitter associated with the 2x optical conversion and whether this might reduce or adversely affect sonics versus the benefit of optical isolation?  

[jabbr]

21 minutes ago, sb6 said:

Curious if anyone considered any inherent noise/jitter associated with the 2x optical conversion and whether this might reduce or adversely affect sonics versus the benefit of optical isolation?  

 

Many people have looked at fiberoptic Ethernet -- for 10Gbe and faster, the amount of jitter is tightly specified to be < hundreds of femtoseconds, slow Ethernet did not have such tight specifications because the specs are very old -- these current modules are not your grandmother's optical converters  

[Miska]

43 minutes ago, sb6 said:

Curious if anyone considered any inherent noise/jitter associated with the 2x optical conversion and whether this might reduce or adversely affect sonics versus the benefit of optical isolation?  

 

Most of the network jitter is from higher level rather than from the media level.

 

For example HQPlayer's NAA protocol doesn't pass any audio clock or other timing data over the network. As long as NAA side buffers don't run empty, jitter doesn't matter. So it can tolerate about +-400 ms of network jitter without audible effects. If exceeded, you will have clear drop-out (silent period) in music.

 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

3 hours ago, sb6 said:

Curious if anyone considered any inherent noise/jitter associated with the 2x optical conversion and whether this might reduce or adversely affect sonics versus the benefit of optical isolation?  

 

I acknowledge that jitter levels may well be perishingly low but I also do have concerns about additional processing in general.

 

If you look for example at an ethernet bridge solution to introduce optical into the pathway between pc and DAC it is fairly convoluted, let alone the cost.

 

.

 

This is from HB's video and in which he later proclaims USB audio is the best sound but not all DACS have USB.

 

I suspect in my current pc >usb audio setup/implementation I have achieved perishingly low noise and very high galvanic isolation (given my server design, use of Ultracaps, DAC design, isoregen etc). Being open to experiment I have no problem adding an optical step to theoretically achieve further isolation. At the same time I don't want to 'cut off my nose to spite my face'.

 

Also, any optical receiver has to be powered from somewhere and galvanic isolation at this point has to be considered.

 

 

An elegant and relatively inexpensive experiment is to try, if available, an optical usb cable or optical thunderbolt /usb cable.

 

People will say spif is best, ethernet is best, usb is best......basically whatever they feel works for them.Back in the days when I used Mark Levinson transport and DAC I had the option between spdif, AES/EBU, tolink optical and optical over ST connector (no usb). I chose AES/EBU purely on subjective SQ.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

23 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

This may be a possibility 10 meters USB 3.0 Active Optical Cables, USB AOC

 

Unfortunately the product manager informs me that it is a hybrid design...but adds "could support remote power supply". Not sure how one would implement that and would still have the copper connection/conduit

 

Edit - further reply....."Yes,The hybrid vision USB AOC could provide power by one side

If the distance is more than 50M,then have to use pure optical cable powered by each sude

Or add a USB hub to provide power"

[jabbr]

1 hour ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

If you look for example at an ethernet bridge solution to introduce optical into the pathway between pc and DAC it is fairly convoluted, let alone the cost.

Your selection is way more complicated and expensive than it need be. First the opticalRendu is the majority of the cost. You could get a switch with an SFP port, connect that to the oR and be done with it. Zero need for the other stuff. The 10Gbe Mikrotik is excellent and cost effective. People will have preferences and that’s their preference but no fault f fiberoptic Ethernet which is cheap and effective.

[jabbr]

4 hours ago, Miska said:

Most of the network jitter is from higher level rather than from the media level.

Entirely agree ... there is also a fiction that optical transceivers inherently add jitter eg TOSLINK and the typical optó isolators — my point is that SFP(+) modules don’t nor do switches. If it mattered it still wouldn’t be an issue.

[smodtactical]

So from my reading and talking to lots of owners apparently one of the best streamers in terms of sound quality is the dcs bridge. Now the problem obviously it is quite expensive ($7k USD). Well talking to a user on head fi who currently uses intel nuc -> rpi streamer -> Audio gd DI20HE (previously gustard u16) -> SPDIF to DAC. He found the rpi chain exceeded the SQ of the dcs. If this is true I find it truly incredible. Obviously lots of boxes can be annoying but I am willing to put up with such a chain if it brings me great sound quality (even comparable to much more expensive gear).

 

I am thinking of starting with a pi2aes as an endpoint to see how it sounds and building on that.

[firedog]

3 hours ago, smodtactical said:

he dcs bridge. Now the problem obviously it is quite expensive ($7k USD).

$4250 in the US. Where is it $7k?

[smodtactical]

Sorry you are right. I thought I saw $7k quoted somewhere. Maybe that was in CAD or AUD funds?

 

Still the other setup would be less than half the price.

[smodtactical]

Btw I settled on this. I love Streamer + DDC approach. Seems to bring amazing SQ and if you buy the right components for not an insane price. Of course lot is dependent on your system and what streamer + ddc you choose.

[Rexp]

2 hours ago, smodtactical said:

Btw I settled on this. I love Streamer + DDC approach. Seems to bring amazing SQ and if you buy the right components for not an insane price. Of course lot is dependent on your system and what streamer + ddc you choose.

Congrats, your chain is? 

 

[smodtactical]

On 6/16/2020 at 12:53 AM, Rexp said:

Congrats, your chain is? 

 

 

u1 mini (ext psu keces p8) -> di20he -> terminator

[zerung]

On 7/7/2020 at 2:18 PM, smodtactical said:

 

u1 mini (ext psu keces p8) -> di20he -> terminator

That is a wonderful solution.

Perhaps only bettered by the >Gaia (+ Ext Clock)> Terminator Plus......(Or Di20HE(+ Ext Clock)> Terminator Plus)