Grimm Audio MU1 and MU2 Music Players

[Mike123]

9 hours ago, TheAttorney said:

Well, I thought I'd come to the end of my Roon/MU1 tweaking days, but the above prompted me to have one more go.

 

Previously, I had compared analyzed files vs non-analyzed files and found little or no difference, which was a relief, as there's no easy way of "un-analyzing" already-analyzed files. But it seems that I may have been doing the wrong comparisons...

 

This time, I just toggled the above two settings on and off (on the same already-analyzed files), and this time there did seem to be a difference. As with many of these Roon tweaks, the differences can appear very subtle or very profound - depending on many factors.

And as with many of these Roon tweaks, there doesn't appear to be a rational explanation.  My best guess is that certain settings cause Roon to frequently be polling something to see if further action is required. Because Roon developers don't believe such background activities have any impact on SQ, they never bother to curtail such activities when they're not actually required. Either that, or it's all in my imagination.

 

Anyway, the bottom line is that these two settings are staying "off". I don't have the patience to go back and compare this tweak to the previous ones, but from memory, I'd put it high up in priority.

 

I do still make use of the file analysis, so I will temporarily enable the background analysis after importing new files into the library. Then switch it off again.

Always appreciate your posts, Attorney. I found that after disengaging "analyzed" filters, seems like a  thin veil was lifted. Moreover, bit more low end @ about 5khz range was introduced (hardly using the sub) . As a result, I'm detecting a few artifacts not of the fault of the Mu1. For example, as listener of mid-late 70's fusion, a few mastering houses did not have access to the artists original studio tapes and were relegated to mastering off the LP. I'm now detecting a low end rumble on on a few tracks which I can only guess is from the turntable used in the digital conversion (esp @ 192K). Moreover, theres a pattern of light thumping occasionally as if someone was walking across a room. Definitely not enough to detract from listening pleasure -just a reminder  in how the Mu1 reveals all! 

[Nicholas Dong]

2022年12月31日上午6点11分，Ronnie112说：

同意上述所有发现，Roon应尽可能用作香草，使Grimm Mu1闪闪发光。关闭（或关闭）所有其他功能确实会有所不同。还觉得调暗Mu1的显示屏可以明显地导致更黑色的背景和更通风的高音。

 

这个线程让我想知道撤销Roon中的Grimm扩展以在显示器中启用轨道信息，是否会带来更好的SQ。无论如何，在关闭显示器的情况下，也不需要它。会自己试试，但有人有这方面的经验吗？

I have tried your experiment, I found that the sound of Mu1's display at the default brightness is the most perfect, dimming the screen or turning off the screen will have some impact on the sound, which is different from some other devices, maybe Grimm Audio in  When debugging the sound, it is adjusted under the default brightness

 

In addition, for the Roon extension of the display, I feel that the sound will be lifeless after the extension is removed. This is the opposite of the usual experience. This is very strange. I believe everything I hear.

[Nicholas Dong]

Roon really has a great influence on the SQ of MU1, I hate using Roon very much, I hope Grimm can get rid of Roon as soon as possible, so that MU1 can support UPNP control software, and can support Tidal Connect, I hope Grimm Audio can do it in the past few months  Fufill the promise

[soupcon]

21 minutes ago, Nicholas Dong said:

Roon really has a great influence on the SQ of MU1, I hate using Roon very much, I hope Grimm can get rid of Roon as soon as possible, so that MU1 can support UPNP control software, and can support Tidal Connect, I hope Grimm Audio can do it in the past few months  Fufill the promise

me too, although the promise of the MU1 *was* that it would obviate the inherent problems (sonic--forget about the shoddy database design and implementation) with Roon. I think there are a lot of people who, given an opportunity to switch to something else, would do so in a heartbeat. it will take time, but in my view, Roon isn't long for this world given their deficits. 

 

[Mike123]

Innuos made the switch to a well though out UI ...though they still supported Roon at least 80% switched to Innuos and never looked back

[PYP]

Qobuz is the must-have for me.  Currently, Roon + Qobuz is a great way to discover music.  All setups are different and mine likes Roon, but it would be better to have more options.  

 

Today, Sonny Rollins' Saxophone Colossus sounded pretty amazing (Rudy Van Gelder Remaster in 24 bit, streaming via Qobuz) and I say that having seen him live in an outdoor venue (many years ago) and remembering that, well, unforgettable sound of the old lion making his presence felt.  

 

To my ears, the quality of the recording far outweighs any tweaks.  It doesn't have to be 24 bit, although that helps, but the recording and mastering engineers have had to capture lightning in a bottle.   The redbook version played via the MU1's internal drive sounded very, very good, but the streaming remaster was even better.

[TheAttorney]

11 hours ago, Nicholas Dong said:

Roon really has a great influence on the SQ of MU1, I hate using Roon very much, I hope Grimm can get rid of Roon as soon as possible, so that MU1 can support UPNP control software, and can support Tidal Connect, I hope Grimm Audio can do it in the past few months  Fufill the promise

In the new video interview below, Eelco has said that upnp and tidal connect will be coming this Spring. Also, MU2 to be introduced in the Munich hifi show in May and generally available from about September. The new stuff comes in around 31 minutes into the video.

 

But I really like the Roon UI, so wouldn't want to lose that. There needs to be an easy way to switch between music apps.

I know some of us like to tweak Roon to get the best out of it, but we need to remember that MU1 is one of the very few servers that by default make Roon sound great - it's one of the reasons I bought it in the first place.

 

 

[Fourlegs]

1 hour ago, TheAttorney said:

But I really like the Roon UI, so wouldn't want to lose that. There needs to be an easy way to switch between music apps.

I know some of us like to tweak Roon to get the best out of it, but we need to remember that MU1 is one of the very few servers that by default make Roon sound great - it's one of the reasons I bought it in the first place.

 

I absolutely understand your point of view there and the sound of Roon on the MU1 is a powerful argument (and indeed it is why I have the MU1 on my short list for a second system). However, because we can currently only use Roon on the MU1 there really is no way of knowing whether Roon is affecting the MU1 sound quality. When I first listened to an Antipodes K50 I only used Roon on it and thought the K50 sounded really really good. It was only when I changed a few days later to using LMS/Squeezelite that I realised that there was an even better sound available by not using Roon on the K50.

 

In passing, the current software interface used by Antipodes allows easy switching between several apps including Roon so it can be done.

[soupcon]

5 hours ago, Fourlegs said:

 

However, because we can currently only use Roon on the MU1 there really is no way of knowing whether Roon is affecting the MU1 sound quality.

 

while i purchased the grimm based on the notion that Roon's  (sonic) problems were "solved," I'm aware that Roon still may be negatively affecting the sound. I'm actually looking forward to discovering what the Grimm's performance is with other players. 

 

 

[Ronnie112]

I also don't want to do without Roon. Actually just purchased a lifetime license as I like the UI and it helps me to discover new music. Having tried multiple streaming services and streamers, the Grimm MU1 was top of my list as it seems to get the best SQ out of the Roon setup and allows further tweaking (which you should try for yourself, not only settings but also fuses, power cables and digital interconnects).

 

Cannot wait for the MU2. After a chat with Eelco in Veldhoven last year, slightly disappointed it isn't an upgrade, rather a repurchase/trade in. But with what he said with full confidence that they are aiming at the very top contending dac/preamps out there. With this knowledge my experience with the MU1 so far, I stopped my quest for a DAC/pre amp and pocketing my money to be first in line when it will be released.

[The Computer Audiophile]

I think the MU1 may be the best way to run Roon, given the custom DMA driver developed by Grimm. I don't use Roon nearly as much as I used to, but I completely understand that tons of people use it and love it. For them, the MU1 is very unique. 

[SQFIRST]

I stumbled onto the Roon tweaks discussion happening here and wanted to share my list of the tweaks in case they help. I don't use a Grimm and this is simply for the Roon aspect:

 

I consider these settings (tweaks) to be a 'Purist' version of listening to Roon. I think it will be great if Roon actually did enable a Purist mode that does the bare minimum process, focusing on just the RAAT sound quality. These settings are not for the users that enjoy the feature rich experience of Roon as this will disable some of those features. But for anyone that wants the best sound quality these are the Settings I use for critical listening, as I have found each to degrade sound quality otherwise.

Roon 2.0 build 1182:

General - Disable all Editorial Sources

Storage - If not using local files, disable NAS and Music Folder - for best Qobuz/Tidal sound

Setup - Disable Roon Radio 

Roon ARC - Left my router settings for natpmp/upnp disabled as there is no way inside of Roon to disable ARC 

Library - Disable Background and On-demand audio analysis

Lastly, 

Disable the karaoke style Lyrics setting in the Customize options that you can find when a track is being played.

With any new feature upgrade that Roon introduces, I generally check the sound quality of the feature before allowing it. Again, these settings are not for you if you prefer not to sacrifice the UI experience, or simply do not care for the changes. All up to personal preferences.

 

[PYP]

9 hours ago, TheAttorney said:

In the new video interview below, Eelco has said that upnp and tidal connect will be coming this Spring. Also, MU2 to be introduced in the Munich hifi show in May and generally available from about September. The new stuff comes in around 31 minutes into the video.

 

But I really like the Roon UI, so wouldn't want to lose that. There needs to be an easy way to switch between music apps.

I know some of us like to tweak Roon to get the best out of it, but we need to remember that MU1 is one of the very few servers that by default make Roon sound great - it's one of the reasons I bought it in the first place.

 

 

This was an instructive video regarding the LS1be.  I don't think any US dealers have these speakers, but this video has made me very curious about hearing them.  

[yellowblue]

2 hours ago, Ronnie112 said:

Ithe Grimm MU1 was top of my list as it seems to get the best SQ out of the Roon setup and allows further tweaking (which you should try for yourself, not only settings but also fuses, power cables and digital interconnects).

Can you tell more about your experience with the change of the fuse(s)? Which one did you change? Or did you change both?

[Ronnie112]

3 minutes ago, yellowblue said:

Can you tell more about your experience with the change of the fuse(s)? Which one did you change? Or did you change both?

Tried fuses from QSA, Hifi Tuning and Synergisic Research and settled for the Purple one of the latter.

 

I am only aware of a fuse at the inlet socket as I didn't open the device looking for more. Will probably void the warranty. Is there one more on the inside then?

[yellowblue]

1 hour ago, Ronnie112 said:

Tried fuses from QSA, Hifi Tuning and Synergisic Research and settled for the Purple one of the latter.

 

I am only aware of a fuse at the inlet socket as I didn't open the device looking for more. Will probably void the warranty. Is there one more on the inside then?

When I opened the inlet socket there were two fuses, one maybe is a spare fuse. But I don´t know which one.

[Ronnie112]

My guess the one most on the outside is a spare.

[FredM]

6 hours ago, Ronnie112 said:

I also don't want to do without Roon. Actually just purchased a lifetime license as I like the UI and it helps me to discover new music. Having tried multiple streaming services and streamers, the Grimm MU1 was top of my list as it seems to get the best SQ out of the Roon setup and allows further tweaking

This echo’s my preference, I just love Roon. Like have a guru from the record store sitting next to you, very convenient to discover new tunes. With the MU1 I have everything at the tap of my finger: Qobuz, local music, playlist, favorite albums/tracks, volume control, multiple rooms/devices and Roon ARC for in the car/train/etc. With the recent MU1 firmware upgrades the (advanced) MU1 specific settings are also easy to access via the tablet (even the LS1be speaker settings actually).

 

For me the MU1 offers the perfect mix, awesome sound ánd convenience in one box. If Roon causes some/minor SQ loss, I guess it’s collateral damage. The experience in use and ease to discover new music are also high on my list. That said, I’m curious what the upcoming DNLA support for additional playback software will bring SQ wise (minor or significant difference?), I hope it will be easy to switch back and forth.

[FredM]

5 hours ago, PYP said:

This was an instructive video regarding the LS1be.  I don't think any US dealers have these speakers, but this video has made me very curious about hearing them.  

The MU1 is my second best hifi decision ever, guess what’s on number One? 🙂🎵👍 (with a clear margin). Perhaps US availability of the LS1be will follow in the slipstream of the MU1, once heard, I wouldn’t be surprised. 
 

I’ll watch the video, thanks for sharing @TheAttorney

[PYP]

15 minutes ago, FredM said:

The MU1 is my second best hifi decision ever, guess what’s on number One? 🙂🎵👍 (with a clear margin). Perhaps US availability of the LS1be will follow in the slipstream of the MU1, once heard, I wouldn’t be surprised. 
 

I’ll watch the video, thanks for sharing @TheAttorney

Purchasing the LS1be would mean selling my DAC, mono amps, speakers, cables.  Not a small step (purchasing the MU1 was very simple by comparison).  But Eelco's description was very compelling and I know you love your LS1bes.  I would have to convince myself first, and then my wife (if she likes the way the speakers look that would be helpful ☺️ ).   In the meantime, I'm at the point of asking myself what else I would want given how enjoyable the setup is now (the answer might be "nothing else").

[Low325]

It looks like the LS1Be or even the other ones use SEAS drivers.  I absolutely love LOVE SEAS (Say-Us).  We used to use their drivers in mobile SQ and have worked with the SEAS team in Norway to help tune the Lotus Reference tweeter in the mid 2000s.  Always impressed on how their mids measured impressively (okay that ~4.5k-5k dip should’ve never been there, but thats what the EQ was for 😝)  on the Klippel when tested by one of the guys.

 

But yes, if there probably is one speaker (system) that calls my name to cheat on my current ones would be the LS1Be,  I always have a soft spot for SEAS….  I mean it’s not even that… I would have never known the MU1 would be the “gateway drug”, taking it to the next level when things just became music - and then you throw in an element of ‘back in the day’… kind of says that the Grimm Eco system is worth serious consideration.

 

Roon - great interface, it is responsive like Spotify’s UI.  I’m really started to come around and like it sooner than I thought.  I’m a lifetime user as well.  But definitely other native apps are gaining popularity to their increased SQ compared to using Roon.

[Low325]

On 1/3/2023 at 12:34 PM, Nicholas Dong said:

I have tried your experiment, I found that the sound of Mu1's display at the default brightness is the most perfect, dimming the screen or turning off the screen will have some impact on the sound, which is different from some other devices, maybe Grimm Audio in  When debugging the sound, it is adjusted under the default brightness

 

In addition, for the Roon extension of the display, I feel that the sound will be lifeless after the extension is removed. This is the opposite of the usual experience. This is very strange. I believe everything I hear.

Wow, you have some great hearing differentiating the affects of MU1 SQ on it’s the screen brightness levels.  I would have thought just turning off the screen would give the greatest affect increase on SQ, not really something in the middle…?  Interesting.  How do I find out the default setting without resetting MU1?  Perhaps an experiment is order too with the extension..hmm?

 

On the subject of displays…there used to be a trick that you can turn off the white LED in v1.4.x. I used to be able to ‘wake’ it from a standby mode of sorts and it would I would be able to control the MU1 as normal with the white LED off. In v1.5 I am unable to stumble on this (bug?) anymore…

[dsyzling]

On 12/18/2022 at 12:10 AM, FredM said:

In addition for each input the volume can be pre set, I love this: For Movies the MU1 is connected with an AV receiver (pre out) via the Toslink input on the MU1. When switching between stereo and AV I manually had to adjust the volume. With a separate default volume setting per input, this seems to be no longer necessary 👍

 

 

@FredM When using your LS1BE for AV I presume that using a preout from your AV means that you have to set two volume levels - one from the AV for centre and surrounds and one for the two fronts (LS1s)?  If so, do you find that painful to level match?

Do you get away with the .1 channel given you have subwoofers in the LS1s?

[TheAttorney]

20 hours ago, SQFIRST said:

Roon ARC - Left my router settings for natpmp/upnp disabled as there is no way inside of Roon to disable ARC 

Library - Disable Background and On-demand audio analysis

Lastly, 

Disable the karaoke style Lyrics setting in the Customize options that you can find when a track is being played

 

Thank you for these suggestions.

You can pseudo-disable ARC by entering 0 in the port field. This apparently tells roon not to bother going further with ARC. So said a roon person in a roon thread.

 

I briefly tried disabling the lyrics a while back, but didn't notice any difference. This could have been wishful thinking as I like this feature. Ditto the power LED brightness setting. May give these another go some time now that my MU1 is a bit more transparent than before.

 

17 hours ago, yellowblue said:

When I opened the inlet socket there were two fuses, one maybe is a spare fuse. But I don´t know which one.

One fuse is definitely spare, but I can't remember which one. I used an SR Orange (the best I had at the time) and it gave a worthwhile improvement (as had been the case with every other component I have ever added audiophile fuses to). Power cable and connectors helped too, as covered in earlier posts,

 

7 hours ago, Low325 said:

On the subject of displays…there used to be a trick that you can turn off the white LED in v1.4.x. I used to be able to ‘wake’ it from a standby mode of sorts and it would I would be able to control the MU1 as normal with the white LED off. In v1.5 I am unable to stumble on this (bug?) anymore…

I also quite liked the disappearing power LED, but I think this minor "bug" was fixed in 1.5 so that owners wouldn't pull out the mains cable because they mistakenly thought the unit was not live.

[FredM]

On 1/5/2023 at 11:36 AM, dsyzling said:

@FredM When using your LS1BE for AV I presume that using a preout from your AV means that you have to set two volume levels - one from the AV for centre and surrounds and one for the two fronts (LS1s)?  If so, do you find that painful to level match?

Do you get away with the .1 channel given you have subwoofers in the LS1s?

Hi dsyzling,

 

I’m happy to share how I use the MU1 and the Front LR speakers in an AV/surround setup. My answer will be a bit broader, as I also included some other AV related subjects which where asked earlier by others via pm. Combined this summary hopefully gives a better understanding on the AV possibilities, or at least how it works in my situation 🙂.

 

 

For occasional HT I’m using a (standard) AV receiver, which is directly connected with 4 surround speakers. For the Front L/R I use the Pre-out from the AV receiver, which feed the LS1 speakers with the subs via the MU1.

 

The output of the AV is analogue, the MU1 Toslink input is digital. To convert the analogue signal I use a simple analogue to digital converter which has just one purpose: convert RCA to Toslink (see photo below).
 

My priority is stereo music (not HT), so I’m using a simple ~ €25 converter. I’m more than happy with this solution for the occasion (and perhaps the quality of the ADC don’t matter that much, as Grimm’s FPGA board will improve the signal), but I guess the sky is the limit (with dozens A/D converters available). 

 

For me this setup has 3 main advantages:

• For stereo I’m using a dedicated power line and separated ground/earthing. By converting to Toslink (=glass/fiber) the AV and Stereo remain isolated 👍. The ADC is powered by a standard smtp plug, on the normal house grid.
• Thanks to a recent MU1 firmware update it’s possible to set a source specific volume level. This means I can adjust the Toslink input volume so that it matches with the other channels (I haven’t tried this setting yet, I guess I try it out when I in for a movie).
• Ease of use. The Toslink/AV input is easy to choose via the selector knob on top of the MU1, easy to explain to others. (The LS1 speakers also have a direct analogue input which I guess can be used, but I haven’t tried these as I’m keen to isolate the stereo set (see point 1).)

When using the MU1 for the Front L/R channels via the AV Pre-out for the first time I noticed an out of sync, after fiddling with AV receiver or Kodi settting (can’t remember which one), thing are in sync. I believe it’s not 100.0000% precise yet, but it works great imo (I just couldn’t be bothered to improve / fine tune any further). At low cost it’s easy to use (try out) an ADC to connect the Front L/R for AV use via the MU1.

 

In AV/Surround playback I don’t use a centre speaker (easy to do in the AV receiver setup wizard). This is fine for me (voices are clear). Grimm also has a short footed LS1 speaker option, so that the LS1 can be placed on eg a cabinet/desk and used as a centre speaker. But I stick with stereo 😀.

 

Regarding you bass question, I’m using two Grimm Direct Motion Feedback (DMF) subwoofers (the predecessor of the current Grimm SB1 subwoofer). These are an option with the various Grimm’s LS1 speakers. Without subs the LS1 act as a 2-way system. With the subs the LS1 becomes a seamless integrated 3-way speaker system. In the LS1 setting menu, just tab ‘Grimm Subs’ (see screenshot below). 

 

Specifically on the subs, long story short: These subs are something special, they’re more then up to the task, also for AV purposes. To give an impression: In this video review the LS1be with SB1 subs are covered. Besides the design of the subwoofers being explained, they also listen and share their thoughts and emotions, with shivers, goosebumps and even a tear (time stamp: click here). Just fast forward when a track is playing. Great to see how the reviewers (incl a studio engineer and producer) experience the LS1’s 👍